Quote from hiroshima guy :

Even Hitler got pissed.

:huepfenic:iagree:

This is a vain discussion. Apart from what racers with 10 to 15 FPS may cause online, its their problem and the LFS developers should not be concerned with what hardware people use LFS with. That's why there is something called Minimum Requirements.

They should evolve LFS, as everything does, even if it will have implications on users with 6+ years old machines! Or else I will start complaining that LFS doesn't work with my ZX Spectrum!

That is the natural evolution of things! I once also had a PC that the only thing I could use was Minesweeper, since LFS (on the early days, with an account I lost or forgot) was also too heavy for my system specs.

As I said, if Scawen and the other devs will keep trying to fry eggs with a coal stove, they will lose all the main core racers for their opponents, majorly PCARS, Asseto Corsa and some to rFactor 2. And only a really small minority will care about LFS S3 content and the "new tyre physics from 2009".

That is the main discussion, not if it is possible to race with 10 or 100 FPS.


Edit: Edge, you are totally right! My sister-inlaw's laptop cost her 400€ and runs LFS around 40 FPS! And it is not, by any means, a top spec laptop, it is almost a netbook! The cheapest Intel i7 laptop here where I leave is way up 1200€.

Quote from edge3147 :

Low end PC's of today...

From a retail point of view, that's true.
From a rational real world point of view, "low end PC" are the ones people are using, not the ones in the shops. Many people don't upgrade every year or two. If a significant proportion of your intended market uses PC's from a few years ago that were cheap at the time, then that's your 'low end PC" right there.

Quote :

Optimizing for performance is an excuse to buy more time.

It would be interesting to hear some evidence to back up that statement - do you have contacts close to the devs?

The way I understand Scawen's posts, the new tyre physics engine uses some ultimately complex set of calculations - if fact so complex that no computer today can run it in real time. He's probably been spending the last couple of months simplifying and optimizing it to make it run on a common modern PC, so optimization is paramount. It's also the most time consuming part, getting from a badly designed algorithm to a reasonably efficient one is quite easy, turning a reasonable algorithm into a really fast one is usually pretty painstaking.

Quote from col :

From a retail point of view, that's true.
From a rational real world point of view, "low end PC" are the ones people are using, not the ones in the shops. Many people don't upgrade every year or two. If a significant proportion of your intended market uses PC's from a few years ago that were cheap at the time, then that's your 'low end PC" right there.

Even a low end PC from a few years ago should have few problems running LFS. UNLESS you are trying to run at settings that your computer cannot handle.

Quote from MadCatX :

The way I understand Scawen's posts, the new tyre physics engine uses some ultimately complex set of calculations - if fact so complex that no computer today can run it in real time. He's probably been spending the last couple of months simplifying and optimizing it to make it run on a common modern PC, so optimization is paramount. It's also the most time consuming part, getting from a badly designed algorithm to a reasonably efficient one is quite easy, turning a reasonable algorithm into a really fast one is usually pretty painstaking.

I think you are off base with saying that.

My cellphone has the computing power of all the computers in the 1980's combined. This should not be taking 3+ yrs with today's computing capabilities.

Quote from NunoMike :

This is a vain discussion. Apart from what racers with 10 to 15 FPS may cause online, its their problem and the LFS developers should not be concerned with what hardware people use LFS with. That's why there is something called Minimum Requirements.

They should evolve LFS, as everything does, even if it will have implications on users with 6+ years old machines! Or else I will start complaining that LFS doesn't work with my ZX Spectrum!

That is the natural evolution of things! I once also had a PC that the only thing I could use was Minesweeper, since LFS (on the early days, with an account I lost or forgot) was also too heavy for my system specs.

As I said, if Scawen and the other devs will keep trying to fry eggs with a coal stove, they will lose all the main core racers for their opponents, majorly PCARS, Asseto Corsa and some to rFactor 2. And only a really small minority will care about LFS S3 content and the "new tyre physics from 2009".

That is the main discussion, not if it is possible to race with 10 or 100 FPS.


Edit: Edge, you are totally right! My sister-inlaw's laptop cost her 400€ and runs LFS around 40 FPS! And it is not, by any means, a top spec laptop, it is almost a notebook! The cheapest Intel i7 laptop here where I leave is way up 1200€.

A laptop is a notebook.
Maybe you were thinking of netbook?

Quote from edge3147 :

I think you are off base with saying that.

I think you are off base in saying that.

added Fri, Aug 21st, 2009 20:30
>New Tyre Physics

"After some time we got to a stage where we felt the model was a clear improvement on the old physics. We updated all the default setups to use realistic values that would be found on similar real world cars and finally released it to our beta testers. Their verdict is unanimous : the new tyre physics model makes the cars much better and more realistic to drive."

1 So back in 2009 the "beta" testers were given a copy of the new tyre model and said it made cars drive much better and more realistic. It has been close to 3 years since this announcement was made, yet the only updates we have seen were nothing in comparison to the updates we have been told were coming 3 years ago. Also....

added Thu, Dec 11th, 2008 19:10
>Announcing VW Scirocco

"We are pleased to announce that we plan to release the new VW Scirocco in Live for Speed during the week ending Friday 19th December."

2 First we were given a date, then we were told, well the T/C and Stability Control needs to be fixed first, then it became, well now we are waiting for the type physics. Let's not forget either....

added Mon, Sep 21st, 2009 17:30
>Rockingham coming to LFS

"Dear LFS Racers,

The time has come to tell you a bit about something else we have been working on.

It's our first real race track - Rockingham UK"

3 Yet we have heard 0 acceptable reasons as to why this hasn't been released other than, "tyre physics first". Now take a look at this post here...

added Mon, Aug 18th, 2008 23:45
>LFS @ GC with the new Volkswagen Scirocco

"Going to the Games Convention in Leipzig this year?

Make sure you visit the Volkswagen booth where you can drive the new Volkswagen Scirocco in LFS and take part in a competition : The person with the fastest laptime around one of LFS's tracks gets to take home a real Scirocco!

For more information about visiting the Games Convention, please see the GC website."

Conclusion.

It was such a big deal that LFS was getting the Scirocco in 2008 that LFS appeared at a Game Convention. Everyone shound check out the GC website now. They have closed due to financial troubles.... One can only speculate, but something tells me, maybe if all these updates had come out and LFS had more attention drawn to it instead of away from it due to lack of updates, this convention might have done better from the publicity LFS could have given it. Instead it has closed down and will be forgotten,

Quote from edge3147 :

Conclusion.

It was such a big deal that LFS was getting the Scirocco in 2008 that LFS appeared at a Game Convention. Everyone shound check out the GC website now. They have closed due to financial troubles.... One can only speculate, but something tells me, maybe if all these updates had come out and LFS had more attention drawn to it instead of away from it due to lack of updates, this convention might have done better from the publicity LFS could have given it. Instead it has closed down and will be forgotten,

That is said to read indeed.

Quote from CheerioDM :

A laptop is a notebook.
Maybe you were thinking of netbook?

Sorry! You are totally right!

Correcting...

Quote from edge3147 :

I think you are off base with saying that.

My cellphone has the computing power of all the computers in the 1980's combined. This should not be taking 3+ yrs with today's computing capabilities.

Am I?

Quote from http://www.lfs.net/?page=report_dec2010 :

This special test rig simulation is not a model that can be used in game because it takes several seconds to simulate one tyre's movement in one second of real time. By modelling the stiffness of the carcass, belts, rubber and air pressure, the complex non-real-time model can provide insight into the deformations of a tyre of given dimensions and internal construction. The idea is that if this model is made as realistic as possible, and the in-game real-time model is made to produce a close approximation of the complex model, then that is one way to make the driveable cars behave like real ones.

Quote from col :

There are obviously some folks who can race safely with a low fps,

No thats not possible.

Quote from col :

Do you have conclusive evidence that it is their slower frame rate that causes the crashes

Yes I have.

Quote from col :

It's like hearing right party talk that if you can't afford a top system you're not good enough to race here - "Framerate Fascism" if you like

Did I say top system? No I said second handed $10 video card.

Wel maybe $10 is a bit low rated but $30 already is enough for a decent performing (but old) AGP or PCI-X card.

Quote from col :

It seems to me that if frame rate is so important, that's all the more reason for him to spend even more time optimizing for performance

Nothing can be done if people decide to play with mobile phone performance.

a GPU is taking care of the graphics (doh), and CPU for physics. If there is no GPU (32 Mb videochip you can't call a GPU) then the CPU has to do that too and that is called software rendering instead of hardware rendering. And thats really bad. This is 10+ year old gaming knowledge.

It keeps surprising me how low basic computer (gaming) knowledge is here, and thats why I am fully pro a lock on ping/FPS .. Server based. Because I have to deal with the shit and not the one who is causing the problems. Should be the other way around.

My computer is over six years old. This year I updated to three display setup, which dropped my FPS from ~90 to 30 or even little below. But that hasn't slowed me at all. I can still break my old PBs and race safely close to other people, just like I used to do before the FPS drop. How do you explain that?

Quote from Mauni :

My computer is over six years old. This year I updated to three display setup, which dropped my FPS from ~90 to 30 or even little below. But that hasn't slowed me at all. I can still break my old PBs and race safely close to other people, just like I used to do before the FPS drop. How do you explain that?

30FPS isn't 15FPS.

That's how I explain that.

Quote from cargame.nl :

a GPU is taking care of the graphics (doh), and CPU for physics. If there is no GPU (32 Mb videochip you can't call a GPU) then the CPU has to do that too and that is called software rendering...
It keeps surprising me how low basic computer (gaming) knowledge is here, and thats why I am fully pro a lock on ping/FPS ..

hmm... I've been gaming/programming for roughly 30 years. My first home build PC was a P133, (before that I had 8086, SX33 and DX66, atari, sinclair etc...), since then, many and various home build PCs for different purposes. I played doom over direct telephone connection, quake1 over internet, GPL, and countless others over the years. I've written networking system code for gameboy advance (ARM assembly)...
I think this argument is not about technical knowledge rather it is about a subjective notion of what is acceptable performance and what is not.

btw, I'd like to see your conclusive evidence

Quote from col :

It's like hearing right party talk that if you can't afford a top system you're not good enough to race here - "Framerate Fascism" if you like

Why it is so pain in ass for You to let other enjoy game better on servers with ping and FPS minimum reqirements? It won't hurt players with slower PC it will just give opportunity to other players to play in a little bit more trustworthy environment.

Quote from edge3147 :

Example: my girlfriend's "low end pc" has a AMD Athlon II 255 CPU, 4 GB ram, ATI 5450HD. LFS runs at a smooth 40-50 fps on that machine, which isn't a high end rig by any means.

2 cores (3.1GHz each if i'm not mistaken.) 4 GB of ram
and a 512mb card with DX11 support is not low end.

Quote from -NightFly- :

2 cores (3.1GHz each if i'm not mistaken.) 4 GB of ram
and a 512mb card with DX11 support is not low end.

The entire setup cost $400 brand new.

Plus most the ppl getting Low FPS need better graphics cards, not CPU's. LFS is not CPU intensive, but it does require a GFX card with atleast 256mb to achieve a decent framerate. LFS is nothing to run if you know what you are doing.

Quote from hiroshima guy :

Even Hitler got pissed.

ROFL, although even this is 2 years old, and remember - he helped create the VW to start with.

High Pings from us damn Australasians.

A 250 ping is good for European servers, I can easily show 300 for many servers. People moan that there's no one online yet cargame states that we get kicked due to geography. While there are great servers round here this is clearly the only area we are allowed to race as we get banned from European servers.

I wonder which will happen first, we lay new underseas cables to improve communications from here or S3 gets released.

We've already been beated by Duke Nukem......................

Back on topic i have found interesting inerview on LFS Manual here is the link:
http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/About_LFS
You can find more articles in bottom section the one i was reading is Victor & Scawen, Autosimsport May 2006 (p25)
and in this interview on page 27 You can read this:

Quote :

AUTOSIMSPORT: You have an amazingly strong following—
what is the secret behind this success?
Victor: It’s not really a secret—care about your community
and they will care for you.

Damn! I laughed so hard...
Then where are You hiding devs? Show us that You really care.

Quote from Si Mclaren :

No, im not, and i suck at the S2 tracks/cars...

Its not me, its because over 10 FPS, its already playable... Anyway, i get 12 just sometimes... The average is 16, what is nothing so bad...

Try playing again for a few races on a computer that runs perfectly steady above 45-60 fps. Then you can tell us how it compared.

Quote from Khann :

30FPS isn't 15FPS.

That's how I explain that.

According to cargame.nl, everyone under 50 FPS shouldn't be allowed to play.

Quote from edge3147 :

Plus most the ppl getting Low FPS need better graphics cards, not CPU's. LFS is not CPU intensive, but it does require a GFX card with atleast 256mb to achieve a decent framerate. LFS is nothing to run if you know what you are doing.

Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong about this. LFS is very CPU intensive - all the physics has to be calculated somewhere - but it's OK with any GPU which can do HVS. If you have a strong enough CPU, you can run LFS with no 3D acceleration at all and still get playable FPS.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

I wonder which will happen first, we lay new underseas cables to improve communications from here or S3 gets released.

That is not the way to do it. You guys should have localized servers. Last year I opened one on the East Coast of the US... It had a ping of 150ms to NZ and Sydney (agreed, still high but skimmed 100ms off) but nobody was interested because everyone keeps connecting to the busiest server(s).

Which is OK but, like I said already like three times, LFS should have an auto server forward system. You connect to a server, you get a message that you are not allowed to be on.. blabla.. And then automatically gets redirected to another server. It's not bad, it's good. Seen it working flawlessly on COD.

The whole LFS global system is badly structured now. All activity based in Europe, the rest gets no chance to form a community.

Quote from Mauni :

According to cargame.nl, everyone under 50 FPS shouldn't be allowed to play.

No.

Again: Should not be allowed to join our servers. Or you can even say not to our main server, like the current system is now already. Enter on S1 first, show you can drive safely and then get access to heavier populated servers.

And 50 is just a value, like all values it needs to be tweaked to get the correct balance.

---
But to go back what this all is about. Releasing new tire physics alone will do nothing good in the end for the community. Short boost and then back to this current situation again (or even worse).

.