Quote from OTone :

I agree at some extent.

But, even LFS is still being regarded as one of the most fun and realistic race sims, there is no point in advertise a product which wasn't significantly updated in 5+ years. Imo of course.
It would be looked like an old game that was good and "new" few years ago, if you know what I mean.

It is a good idea, don't get me wrong. It is just too soon to see LFS being downloadable in Steam... or too late.

I do agree also, to some extent. The point im trying to get across is, if we have some more advertisement, there is bound to be many more license purchases, which obviously, pumps money in the dev's bank accounts. In theory, this may give them some motivation, something like "Hey Bob, Check it out, much more people are interested in the sim, how about we put some more time and effort in to this to create more purchases in the future".. if you get what im blabbin on about.

I just think, the more places LFS is advertised, the more people will buy it, the more drivers we have, the more fun that we will get from fuller servers. Not to forget the more people to hang around the forum and making it active and exciting again.

Well, Steam greenlight then?

Quote from xtraction :

I do agree also, to some extent. The point im trying to get across is, if we have some more advertisement, there is bound to be many more license purchases, which obviously, pumps money in the dev's bank accounts. In theory, this may give them some motivation, something like "Hey Bob, Check it out, much more people are interested in the sim, how about we put some more time and effort in to this to create more purchases in the future".. if you get what im blabbin on about.

I just think, the more places LFS is advertised, the more people will buy it, the more drivers we have, the more fun that we will get from fuller servers. Not to forget the more people to hang around the forum and making it active and exciting again.

I maybe talking through my a*hole but I get the impression that it's not so much about the money but more about prefection and that can only happen when you have complete control over your product. If it was about money LFS may have been under another banner years ago.

Cant get any worse then it is now considering the player base.

Steam is a great idea,this will bring 100% more racers to the game and finally the people with no credit card can buy S2(using paysafecard).

Quote from Hotdogxx60 :

I maybe talking through my a*hole but I get the impression that it's not so much about the money but more about prefection and that can only happen when you have complete control over your product. If it was about money LFS may have been under another banner years ago.

Yes, your right in saying its about perfection, but the money side is also a huge factor. The reason being that without money, the future doesnt hold much for LFS anymore because, there will be no funds for hosting, hardware and software. Without money, there is no motivation. Without perfection there is no real player base (we are at the lowest point when you consider players).

All in all, there is not much hope for the sim if we dont act now. Of course the dev's will have to give a percentage to steam when purchases are made, but you will find that its worth it in the long run because it will bring more money than just trying to sell it alone.

Im going to back LFS untill the end, no matter what happens, but it would be a bright idea if LFS was assisted in some way or another.

How can people say there wasnt any changes on LFS since 5 years ???

And how can you get the devs to work more on LFS ? This could only be

done if they wouldnt work on right now. They work on , just want to keep

it in their hands. More money will not change that, if they were on that we

would have S3 out long ago. I for myself still trust in LFS and the devs.

Funny how some people always come back to LFS, telling stories about how

great other racinggames are compared to the "oldfashioned" LFS. So, why

do they come back if those other games are really that better ?? PVL


Btw, steam is what I deleted from my PC after I stopped playing Race07

and it will not get back for sure....

Quote from P V L :

Btw, steam is what I deleted from my PC after I stopped playing Race07
and it will not get back for sure....

What you may not take in to consideration is that many of the people here use steam for so many other games. Really, its not weather we use steam or not, its about the people outside of LFS that do (fresh faces).

..netKar Pro is officially at Steam Greenlight and is getting alot of "Likes"...LFS should do the same or we gonna lose current/future racers.

Quote from X.Gus :

Steam is a great idea,this will bring 100% more racers to the game and finally the people with no credit card can buy S2(using paysafecard).

I think you are totally right
Not everybody has a credit card and giving paysafecard as an option will probably bring more racers

If we can have a Steamless and a Steam version => OK
If there is only a Steam version => I quit

I don't need 3rd-party software (malware that 'benefits' the gamers experience, right...) on my system.
If I buy a game I want to be able to install it and own it myself, not by running 3rd-party services via internet connections.
Example: Years ago I bought Half-Life 2 on dvd, I couldn't install/unpack it without being connected with Steam.

Please give me some real benefits of Steam...

Hmmm, not one word from the people who have the only real say in this matter, the owners and devs of LFS.
I think that about sums it up.

Quote from Vultureke :

If we can have a Steamless and a Steam version => OK
If there is only a Steam version => I quit

I don't need 3rd-party software (malware that 'benefits' the gamers experience, right...) on my system.
If I buy a game I want to be able to install it and own it myself, not by running 3rd-party services via internet connections.
Example: Years ago I bought Half-Life 2 on dvd, I couldn't install/unpack it without being connected with Steam.

Please give me some real benefits of Steam...

Well, you'd be able to play Half Life 2...

Also, digital delivery - no DVDs. Autopatching. You can play your games anywhere in the world on any PC.

But OMG! They advertise on there - the no good double crossing, erm, business people.

By the way - check the small print in your boxed games - you don't own them like you think you do.

Quote from Vultureke :

If we can have a Steamless and a Steam version => OK
If there is only a Steam version => I quit

I don't need 3rd-party software (malware that 'benefits' the gamers experience, right...) on my system.
If I buy a game I want to be able to install it and own it myself, not by running 3rd-party services via internet connections.
Example: Years ago I bought Half-Life 2 on dvd, I couldn't install/unpack it without being connected with Steam.

Please give me some real benefits of Steam...

Never before have I read such ignorance and idiocy about a piece of software in my LIFE. A program that services millions of gamers world-wide is MALWARE? You're either incredibly dumb or you've never actually used Steam before. You can run Steam without an internet connection and you'll still be able to play every game you own. Granted, if you're not connected to the internet, you won't be able to play any games online.

There are even hardcore simulators on Steam such as Railworks that only get hardcore train enthusiasts as its userbase. If LFS was marketed as a racing SIMULATOR and not an ARCADE racing game, who's to say it won't end up in the same situation? You're all basically saying "Yeah, we could get more users into LFS, but I'd rather sit here on the forums and complain about how important I am and why Steam is an awful idea and why we should just let LFS slowly dwindle like it has in the past 4 years."

Infuriating. I'm borderline sick of the self-righteous sector of the LFS community.

Quote from ToxicKlay :

Never before have I read such ignorance and idiocy about a piece of software in my LIFE. A program that services millions of gamers world-wide is MALWARE? You're either incredibly dumb or you've never actually used Steam before. You can run Steam without an internet connection and you'll still be able to play every game you own. Granted, if you're not connected to the internet, you won't be able to play any games online.

There are even hardcore simulators on Steam such as Railworks that only get hardcore train enthusiasts as its userbase. If LFS was marketed as a racing SIMULATOR and not an ARCADE racing game, who's to say it won't end up in the same situation? You're all basically saying "Yeah, we could get more users into LFS, but I'd rather sit here on the forums and complain about how important I am and why Steam is an awful idea and why we should just let LFS slowly dwindle like it has in the past 4 years."

Infuriating. I'm borderline sick of the self-righteous sector of the LFS community.

I feel you.

Quote from Vultureke :

Example: Years ago I bought Half-Life 2 on dvd, I couldn't install/unpack it without being connected with Steam.

Stop living like it's 2004. Steam has moved on since then, you should too.

Benefits of Steam/digital distribution? How about instant access the second a game is released? Or auto-patching? How about holiday sales? Steam Workshop for modders? Cross-title overlay system for multiplayer interaction with friends? Greenlight for indies? There's even cross-platform support for a lot of games now if you own both PC and Mac, buy game once, own it for both.

Yeah, I can't see any benefits at all with Steam compared to using a standalone disc.

Quote from bogdani.cojocaru :

I feel you.

It's especially painful because I remember what it was like, back in 2006, to be all high and mighty about LFS. That was back when you could find packed S2 servers for days and nobody needed any ideas on how to bring in new racers.

Quote from Matrixi :

Stop living like it's 2004. Steam has moved on since then, you should too...
...Yeah, I can't see any benefits at all with Steam compared to using a standalone disc.

I have a question for you:

What if you have many hundreds of pounds/dollars worth of games on steam, and then due to an error on their part, steam decides you have broken the user agreement and stops your account.
Is there a fair appeals system using third party arbitration backed up by law that protects you rights as a consumer, or is it just up to steam whether to re-instate you?
(Remember, if there is no legislation in your country to protect you, you could lose ALL your games that you paid hard earned money for.)

It's an honest question, who/what defends your consumer rights if there is problem with your steam account?

Quote from col :

What if you have many hundreds of pounds/dollars worth of games on steam, and then due to an error on their part, steam decides you have broken the user agreement and stops your account.

Then you get in touch with their support team and ask what the heck is going on. From what I've seen, if there has been wrong-doing on Steams part, the support team has been quick to fix the issue.

I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not the best person to ask these kind of things from. I'm merely a customer, and atleast for me (and everyone I have known) Steam has never pulled off that kind of thing that you are describing. Do you have any example cases?

Quote from col :

I have a question for you:

What if you have many hundreds of pounds/dollars worth of games on steam, and then due to an error on their part, steam decides you have broken the user agreement and stops your account.
Is there a fair appeals system using third party arbitration backed up by law that protects you rights as a consumer, or is it just up to steam whether to re-instate you?
(Remember, if there is no legislation in your country to protect you, you could lose ALL your games that you paid hard earned money for.)

It's an honest question, who/what defends your consumer rights if there is problem with your steam account?

This is actually a very interesting argument, especially when you put it in perspective with the latest round of bans in Diablo III (allegedly caused by Warden misdetecting WINE as a cheating tool) and how it was handled by Blizzard. Long story short: In this particular case they didn't even explain on what grounds were the bans issues, they just told the users they were "cheating." How did they find out and what was the nature of the cheating nobody knows. The only official "statement" made by one of their admins said that "Using WINE won't get you banned, cheating will." pretty much sums up their "we don't give a rats ass" attitude towards their customers. When the affected users started nagging Blizz techsupp, they simply told them to GTFO and get another account (=buy the game again).

The problem is that you're pretty much powerless against such decisions. It's up to you to prove your innocence which itself is a problem and even if you have persuasive evidence that you've done nothing wrong, <your distribution platform>'s techsupp don't really have to care. Unless they start loosing customers on a massive scale over this, they're much better off ignoring this kind of complains.

It's not like Valve, Blizzard, Apple etc. are a bunch of devious douchebags, I'm just saying that they're your best friends until you want your money back and one should keep that in mind when paying for stuff that never actually becomes your property.

There's certainly a risk involved when making a digital only purchase, however most disc versions of games activate on Steam (or other DD platforms) these days aswell. So even if you have a disc and a cd-key, it won't matter one way or another, as you're still going through the digital distribution platform.

Then again, I think the advantages are worth the risks taken. If my account would be taken down (which would suck), I wouldn't feel bad about pirating back the games that I had already bought. After all, the developers and publishers had already gotten my money for them.

Quote from col :

I have a question for you:

What if you have many hundreds of pounds/dollars worth of games on steam, and then due to an error on their part, steam decides you have broken the user agreement and stops your account.
Is there a fair appeals system using third party arbitration backed up by law that protects you rights as a consumer, or is it just up to steam whether to re-instate you?
(Remember, if there is no legislation in your country to protect you, you could lose ALL your games that you paid hard earned money for.)

It's an honest question, who/what defends your consumer rights if there is problem with your steam account?

I'd drive over to their office and demand that they give me the equivalent amount of snacks. That way I wouldn't need someone/something to defend my consumer rights.

On a serious note, Valve is currently dealing with some Germans that believe that a consumer should be able to resell its property. There are consumer advocacy groups out their reading Steam's EULA every time it changes.

As for your fair appeals system, yes and no. If they terminate your account, you can drop them a line and try to iron it out. They are very friendly. If you can't iron it out, you're going to have to take them to court.
Unfortunately for the majority of Steam's subscribers, the steam subscriber agreement is executed in Washington state. Any case you want to file against them has to be filed in a King County court.

Valve is not going to terminate your account because you were cheating or being a nuisance. They will terminate your account if you're breaking the law, using exploits online, or breaking Steam.

While Steam's legal stuff may be draconian, the user experience is pretty ****ing sweet.

It seems pretty clear to me that LFS and Steam aren't a good fit... I don't know why it is still being discussed.

I have spent way too much money on Steam, and it's a steaming pile. If they didn't sell dirt cheap games, I'd never want to have anything to do with it. Not only does it require me being online, it also doesn't allow downloading games wherever I want them to go, or installing them whenever I want to (I switch systems around quite a bit), but instead forces me to download again whenever I want to run the game again on a newly installed system.
GOG on the other hand is a marvellous system, and consequently I spent a far greater pile of cash there. Pay for the game, download it, and do whatever you want with it whenever you want to. I'd much rather see LFS on GOG than Steam... and the LFS activation system works far, far better than Steam's.

Another possible option to get financial support is Kickstarter, it seems like a great way for indie games to get financing. I don't know much about how it actually works, though...

Quote from Mravac Kid :

Not only does it require me being online, it also doesn't allow downloading games wherever I want them to go, or installing them whenever I want to (I switch systems around quite a bit)

Actually you can define a download/install location now, just need the beta client and start it in dev mode. This feature will propably be in the stable version sooner rather than later, it certainly is overdue.

Quote from Mravac Kid :

but instead forces me to download again whenever I want to run the game again on a newly installed system.

Nope, just need to copy your \steamapps\common\ folder to a new system and Steam will do the rest when you launch a game.

I'm not saying Steam is perfect, because it isn't, but it's not right to blame it for user error or lack of research.

Quote from col :

I have a question for you:

What if you have many hundreds of pounds/dollars worth of games on steam, and then due to an error on their part, steam decides you have broken the user agreement and stops your account.
Is there a fair appeals system using third party arbitration backed up by law that protects you rights as a consumer, or is it just up to steam whether to re-instate you?
(Remember, if there is no legislation in your country to protect you, you could lose ALL your games that you paid hard earned money for.)

It's an honest question, who/what defends your consumer rights if there is problem with your steam account?

There is legislation within the EU which protects your rights in these cases. There has to be a valid reason to terminate your account (ie, you need to have broken their user agreement as you said).

If you broke their user agreement - who are you to ask questions? It's not as if it says in there "if you log in on a tuesday at exactly 13:37 we have the right to ban you". The stuff in there is fairly general as far as I know. And there's another reason why Valve is not likely to completely close off your steam account, especially if you have hundreds of euros worth of games on there: you're a paying customer. Banning a guy who spends hundreds of euros on games for frivoloties is hardly a solid business plan. These guys are not the spawn of Satan or anything. They sell games and offer customer service to retain those customers.

You might ask the same question in a different context: what if your house burns down and you lose your entire library of games?