Wibber needs to start intentionally costing Vetl as much time as possible, whenever possible. A good example was the T2 pass attempt. Vetel had forced him way of the racing line in 1. Instead of surging across the track to take a wide exit, just park it in the inside/middle and come to a near-complete stop, forcing Veetl to go to the outside. Then, take a normal wide exit and force him to either drive off the track or brake. Or, whenever Wibster is taking the inside line against Vettle, push him all the way to the white line every time instead of keeping it tight. If he turns in while on the outside, it's his fault.
Not trolling. It was utterly stupid to stay out with that wing. The load was clearly going to be too much at some point, and as soon as Webber's car moved in front off it came. Pretty awful stuff from Ferrari, I still can't believe they left him out...
In other news, interesting interview with Christian Horner on the BBC talking about this current Red Bull feud stemming from the Brazilian Grand Prix.
I think they would have black flagged Alonso if he'd stayed out much longer with that wing.
I am also bored of teams deciding which driver will finish in which position. The end of the race was a massive anti-climax, and the political language being used by the drivers was an embarrassment. There should be penalties for any driver who doesn't race during a race.
I am also bored of teams deciding which driver will finish in which position. The end of the race was a massive anti-climax, and the political language being used by the drivers was an embarrassment. There should be penalties for any driver who doesn't race during a race.
reddit love Vettel, cos most of em only watched F1 from 2010.
Also Kev, F1 is a team sport. The driver is only a small part of the team effort. So they would be pissing all over their own mechanics if they ignored team orders so to speak.
Amen.
Rosberg did go past Hamilton... two or three times... and couldn't make the pass stick. Brawn gave him ample opportunity to pass Hamilton, and when he couldn't get the job done he called off the battle.
...yes, and the fact that Hamilton did so much to come back past Rosberg (i.e. burned more of the fuel he was already short on because of his earlier stint(s)) was a major contributing factor to them driving home seconds off the pace. Goes to show Hamilton's short-term thinking multiple times in the race, and the team shouldn't have punished Rosberg for that.
Well in your first post you said they protected Alonso. He cant see his front wing from there so doesnt know exactly whats broken, for all he knows he could have broken an endplate and the wing is perfectly secure still. Perhaps he suggested the idea to stay out but the team has to be authoritive in that situation as they know better, if it was Alonso's mistake to stay out then imo that underlines a deeper issue in their team dynamic because he couldn't possibly make that call 100% reliably.
It's the way F1 has always been. See Peter Collins giving up a championship winning position (and car) for Fangio in 56.
Why do you watch something that bores you?
The Vettel/Webber thing goes back to Japan 2007 when Vettel rear ended Webber under SC and put him out of a 2nd place finish.
From Webber's comments in his interview, I get the impression that he has pretty much had enough. It is unlikely his 1 year contract will be renewed at the end of the season, and he may just decide to retire sooner rather than later.
Buemi would certainly play the number 2 role, whether or not he could do sufficiently well to enable Red Bull to fight for the constructors championship is another matter though.
From Webber's comments in his interview, I get the impression that he has pretty much had enough. It is unlikely his 1 year contract will be renewed at the end of the season, and he may just decide to retire sooner rather than later.
Buemi would certainly play the number 2 role, whether or not he could do sufficiently well to enable Red Bull to fight for the constructors championship is another matter though.
Well, we don't know how controlled Hamilton's pace was earlier on in the stint. The drivers are at 80% now, so quite a few decisions are made on the pit wall with regard to fuel maps and tyres. Hamilton was pressing RedBull and putting the pressure on them. no doubt Rosberg would have benefited later on from these decisions had he been allowed to pass Hamilton. Hamilton in that sense would have been the sacrificial lamb. Though he later on admitted Rosberg drove the smarter race.
However, Rosberg had the opportunity to pass Hamilton, which he didn't successfully complete. He knew full well that there was a high probability the battle would be called off near the end of the race so if he didn't get the job done when he had the opportunity that's his own fault. No point bitching about it.
Hamilton knew that as well, and managed to finish ahead, which is the name of the game. I am not as allergic to team orders as some... this is a team game at the end of the day.
This is why Rosberg and Webber won't win a championship....
Webber ought to have realised that Vettel wouldn't be a darling. No multiple champion would (or should) lower themselves to that level, no matter who is paying the wages or operating the radio. And Rosberg had several attempts in the DRS zone prior to the last corner... I think even a slightly retarded child would have realised that NOT passing into the final hairpin, and using the next DRS section on the pit straight would have been much more successful.
Webber ought to have realised that Vettel wouldn't be a darling. No multiple champion would (or should) lower themselves to that level, no matter who is paying the wages or operating the radio. And Rosberg had several attempts in the DRS zone prior to the last corner... I think even a slightly retarded child would have realised that NOT passing into the final hairpin, and using the next DRS section on the pit straight would have been much more successful.
That is exactly what I thought. Rosberg was not smart, he looked ridiculously inexperienced, in fact.
I understand what you're saying about Vettel too, but I'd rather he just stood by his decision if that's how he felt about it, rather than feign regret.
Why would you condone a third of a race being - by design - not a race?
There is no point to it. If the teams are going to do that they should go to the race director when they've decided the result and say 'You can red flag it now, that's all the racing we feel like doing today'.
Are you an idiot? This is how F1 has always been. Actually, not just F1 but motorsport in general. It costs them money to put the cars on the grid and at the end of the day just because we the fans don't like it, doesn't change their job description to get the best result they can and tbh, it's not even "the fans" who don't like it, it's just the uneducated fans who don't even really understand what F1 is and always has been who don't like it.
Brawn actually said post race that had both of them continued to pass and repass neither would have made it to the finish, you saw Rosberg brake in 6th and not shift down until the apex - they were both saving fuel: plus the risk of the two crashing into eachother.
Laughable suggestion from John Watson that Red Bull should suspend Vettel btw, I agree he broke team protocol and rules but there is 0 chance they will suspend him.
This. F1's primary function is not to uphold corinthian sporting ideals, nor is it to entertain for that matter. It's primary function is to decide the F1 World Drivers' Championship and the F1 World Constructors Championship.
It costs a massive amount of money so it needs the audiences and the sponsors, therefore entertainment is required as part of the package - a means to an end if you will. As an aside, I wonder what the marketing value of the race and the aftermath was for Red Bull? Anyway, this massive investment needs to be protected by the teams and throwing 43 points into the gravel makes no sense on any level.
Vettel did what he did because he can, and he is utterly ruthless. You can't really blame him for that as there is no crime if there is no punishment and he knows that. This really lies with the Red Bull management. Ross Brawn was very clear (and explanatory) in his messages to Rosberg and if he had ignored it then there's no question in my mind that Sam Bird would be driving in China.
wtf?
Can't be any clearer than that, col.
If the speed limit is 30mph, but there is no fine or penalty points if you exceed it then the limit is ignored - why would you stick to it?
The only thing that happens to Seb now is he gets criticised in the media. Like he cares.
If the speed limit is 30mph, but there is no fine or penalty points if you exceed it then the limit is ignored - why would you stick to it?
The only thing that happens to Seb now is he gets criticised in the media. Like he cares.
This will perhaps start a friction between Vettel and RedBull that will develop over time, echo Hamilton and McLaren, only for many different reasons.
I'm with John Watson on that one. In fact I was thinking back to Williams thru the 90's and how many different champions they had because the car was so great and we always remember the great period of that car.
Which instantly suggests that Vettel didn't only steal the victory from Webber (He would have never got past in normal circumstances, because Webber had a solid gap and could see him coming from a mile up), but is trying to steal the fame and the glory from the team all for himself as if he is the only and key role to their project, which couldn't be further from the truth as RedBull guided and built him all thru his career long before F1 and just knowing that makes an easy conclusion that there is at least as much credit to RedBull's driver development program rather than Vettel's immense talent if not more.
If RedBull wants to stay on top of the things as a team that takes credit for this development which then makes a great athlete I can see no other way for them, but to make some big sanctions for Vettel.
An apology for something that he timed to perfection with pitstops and sudden gap closure and knowledge that race will be called off right at that point and that there won't be much time to argue in cockpit if he's right there in that moment and that Webber will be cought completely by surprise, I mean you just can't do this many things unintentionally, just doesn't do. It also shows how stupid of Rosberg was not to hold on for a single corner to make the pass stick.
The whole situation is perverse because RedBull never wanted to be having this. However, they are there right now and they have to react, because as many said RedBull will talk, but Vettel won't listen. It's also hugely embarrassing for Vettel to be sanctioned by the team after winning three world championship titles, so if RedBull does that it's yet another milestone.
What I think will happen is a series of silent things. Little mishaps with the cars and pitstops reliability will start to happen to Vettel rather than Webber unlike in previous years as a turn of trust between the team and the drivers. Many champions thru the history have shown that it's stupid to believe the speed is everything in motorsports and I think we're onto see this happen again, strategy is the key. Webber now finally has the edge inside the team and I'm very excited about that fact, since obviously RedBull is miles ahead of anyone! this year again, aka 2011 repeat and it's between their two drivers, nothing else.
Keep it honest Mark.
I'm with John Watson on that one. In fact I was thinking back to Williams thru the 90's and how many different champions they had because the car was so great and we always remember the great period of that car.
Which instantly suggests that Vettel didn't only steal the victory from Webber (He would have never got past in normal circumstances, because Webber had a solid gap and could see him coming from a mile up), but is trying to steal the fame and the glory from the team all for himself as if he is the only and key role to their project, which couldn't be further from the truth as RedBull guided and built him all thru his career long before F1 and just knowing that makes an easy conclusion that there is at least as much credit to RedBull's driver development program rather than Vettel's immense talent if not more.
If RedBull wants to stay on top of the things as a team that takes credit for this development which then makes a great athlete I can see no other way for them, but to make some big sanctions for Vettel.
An apology for something that he timed to perfection with pitstops and sudden gap closure and knowledge that race will be called off right at that point and that there won't be much time to argue in cockpit if he's right there in that moment and that Webber will be cought completely by surprise, I mean you just can't do this many things unintentionally, just doesn't do. It also shows how stupid of Rosberg was not to hold on for a single corner to make the pass stick.
The whole situation is perverse because RedBull never wanted to be having this. However, they are there right now and they have to react, because as many said RedBull will talk, but Vettel won't listen. It's also hugely embarrassing for Vettel to be sanctioned by the team after winning three world championship titles, so if RedBull does that it's yet another milestone.
What I think will happen is a series of silent things. Little mishaps with the cars and pitstops reliability will start to happen to Vettel rather than Webber unlike in previous years as a turn of trust between the team and the drivers. Many champions thru the history have shown that it's stupid to believe the speed is everything in motorsports and I think we're onto see this happen again, strategy is the key. Webber now finally has the edge inside the team and I'm very excited about that fact, since obviously RedBull is miles ahead of anyone! this year again, aka 2011 repeat and it's between their two drivers, nothing else.
Keep it honest Mark.
Not laughable at all. Vettel basically acted like a spoilt kid and shat all over the guys who have given him the best car for the last three years. If you consider the combined hours of work from all the work force that goes into a car compared to that of vettel, his role in the whole machine is quite small. Yet he chooses to put himself above everyone else.
Christian Horner etc... all have had their authority seriously undermined. They will look very very weak if no action is taken. I suspect no action will be taken because Vettel seems to hold quite a lot of power over them, and that in itself is quite shocking. No team should allow themselves to be put in such a vulnerable position.
I recall Schumacher playing second fiddle to Irvine back in 1999 when he made his comeback. Granted the championship was out of his grasp at that stage, but he still played the team role. Schumacher, never put himself above the team. If that benefiting or not from team orders.
On one hand I admire his ruthlessness... though I suspect it's more a total lack of respect for Webber as a driver. Which again, he has RBR to thank for having such an average team mate. When Hamilton came knocking for a seat (notice how Hamilton doesn't shy away from good team mates unlike others. maybe that's a weakness, who knows?) they kept with Webber.
Could someone please explain to me what the hell is going on? You guys make it sounds like Red Bull is going to deliberately hinder Vettel's attempt to win the championship, which is completely ridiculous (IMO) because winning is everything.
Yes, that's why RBR ordered both drivers to cool off. Over a season, generally, taking the safe option and collecting the points delivers the highest probability for success ala Alonso last year (not this year though, why did he stay out???).
Vettel decided that he would take a massive risk, ignore the team and put 45 points on the line. Winning is as much about risk management, and RBR had made the decision.
The reason vettel holds soo much power in the team is the fact Helmet marko will do anything to make sure he stays after all he gets all the praise for bringing him to the redbull program.
Redbull could get a world class driver in a click of a finger if they wanted, anydriver would take that seat over what they got currently, and they have to know this if they want to keep comtrol of there drivers because its just unfair to the whole team.
Redbull could get a world class driver in a click of a finger if they wanted, anydriver would take that seat over what they got currently, and they have to know this if they want to keep comtrol of there drivers because its just unfair to the whole team.
Rappa Z: I think it's not just about one race or one championship. Winning has to stand for something. For what I can see is that Newey is more upset with all this than Horner and we can pretty much expect cars from RedBull suiting Webbers style more now which then shows that he isn't all that average and that Vettel just ren shit out of luck, until all this kefaffle settles down, which is like half a year away. 
2013 F1 Malaysia GP
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