How can Hamilton break a gearbox? If he asks it to change gear too early it won't let him (on downshift). He can't over-rev it. It's designed to accept the stresses and torque from his engine, and accept the torque reversals that come from starts, kerb uses, wheelspin etc. He cannot actively break his gearbox. Gearboxes fail, but not through driver abuse anymore. His last one was due to a tyre failure over-stressing the differential wasn't it. Is that Hamilton's fault directly (i.e. not the tyre failure)?

Within limits yes, they could change an engine map so that it was down on power, or fluffed his starts. But that's massively unlikely really isn't it. And he could use different maps. And he has been quick, just unlucky. It's not a performance disadvantage he's got.

I'm not say the others weren't used. What I'm saying is that this particular incident in the pitlane was NOT a conspiracy. Accusing the Red Bull team of allowing wheels to fly into people is way way too far when other, more subtle means are way more likely and harder to prove (or disprove).

With regards your Obama bit - Reductio ad absurdum. I'm not even American.

So you're saying that McLaren had a perfect anti-Hamilton gearbox destruction software. Yea I can see that they did, or actually Mercedes has one now.

Quote from tristancliffe :

they could change an engine map so that it was down on power, or fluffed his starts.

Now we're getting somewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f ... e&v=XrV65irfkyk#t=95s

Here's Red Bull deliberately making a mess of Webber's start. Oh wait, he's always had these issues.

Quote from CSF :

Okay lets do that:

2009:

Vettel - 2 Mech Retirements (Hungary and Europe)

Webber - 1 Mech Retirement (Singapore)

2010:

Vettel - 2 Mech Retirements (Australia and Korea)

Webber - 0 Mech Retirements!

2011:

Vettel - 1 Mech Retirement (Abu Dhabi)

Webber - 0 Mech Retirements!

2012:

Vettel - 2 Mech Retirements (Europe and Italy)

Webber - 1 Mech Retirement (USA)

2013

Vettel - 1 Mech Retirement (GBR)

Webber - 0 Mech Retirements!


Since 2009

Vettel 7 Mech Retirements

Webber 2 Mech Retirements


Ho hum, must be a conspiracy against Vettel.

You're listing mechanical only. Pretty much every race where Webber didn't win the team gaffed one of his pitstops.

At least every other race they go full spastic on a Webber a pitstop, and shamefully for them, that's not even an exaggeration...

Quote from CSF :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?f ... e&v=XrV65irfkyk#t=95s

Here's Red Bull deliberately making a mess of Webber's start. Oh wait, he's always had these issues.

C'mooon one time he blew. Do you really believe in all these years he wouldn't learn how to start a race?

Quote from N I K I :

C'mooon one time he blew. Do you really believe in all these years he wouldn't learn how to start a race?

It's not one bloody time, he's never been a good starter...

Quote from BlueFlame :

You're listing mechanical only. Pretty much every race where Webber didn't win the team gaffed one of his pitstops.

At least every other race they go full spastic on a Webber a pitstop, and shamefully for them, that's not even an exaggeration...

Right, because you were banging on about Retirements... Webber has had 1 retirement from a pitstop related issue in China this year, Button has had two. Is there a conspiracy against Jenson at McLaren?

Superior equipment my ass. He won a race with Torro Rosso. I don't see any of their current drivers doing that.

Quote from CSF :

It's not one bloody time, he's never been a good starter...

I could understand this quote : “Mark’s had some good starts, unfortunately the bad starts have been when he’s been right up the front.” as Mark just dealing badly with pressure.. but how the hell his pit crew has the same issue then? Why doesn't he have start issues or the team pit-stop issues when he's running in say P4? What is going on? Those two should not be interlinked, should they? Why does one happen when the other one doesn't and vice versa?

Quote from Bmxtwins :

Superior equipment my ass. He won a race with Torro Rosso. I don't see any of their current drivers doing that.

Everytime someone brings this up I facepalm.

Quote from N I K I :

I could understand this quote : “Mark’s had some good starts, unfortunately the bad starts have been when he’s been right up the front.” as Mark just dealing badly with pressure.. but how the hell his pit crew has the same issue then? Why doesn't he have start issues or the team pit-stop issues when he's running in say P4? What is going on? Those two should not be interlinked, should they? Why does one happen when the other one doesn't and vice versa?

He had a bad start from P4 at Silverstone, he had a wheel fall off when in 7th or wherever in China.

From what I can remmember most of Marks problems have been things that have hampered his race but not terminal where Vettel tends to just get terminal issues if they come.

Don't have any statistics to back this up but thats how I can remember it being like for the last couple of years.

Quote from CSF :

He had a bad start from P4 at Silverstone, he had a wheel fall off when in 7th or wherever in China.

Ok then, no point arguing Mark's case any further. I'm no core fan of Mark whatsoever, it's just annoying that these things seem to happen to him always.

Quote from Bmxtwins :

Superior equipment my ass. He won a race with Torro Rosso. I don't see any of their current drivers doing that.

Changable conditions throughout qualifying and the race at Monza when he won that race. Bottas qualified 3rd in Canada this year, does that mean he's going to land a Red Bull drive as well?

Besides, the Toro Rosso wasn't that bad, it was capable of top 5 finishes in the dry, which means it is definitely capable of winning a race in the wet with the right circumstances.

Quote from N I K I :

So you're saying that McLaren had a perfect anti-Hamilton gearbox destruction software. Yea I can see that they did, or actually Mercedes has one now. Now we're getting somewhere.

No. Hamilton was just unlucky with gearboxes that year.

Remember, we're working on the premise that Webbers pitstop at this last Grands Prix was done badly on purpose. That's the conspiracy in question. Other ones to do with dodgy setups or worse engine maps, or malfunctioning clutch sensors are another topic entirely.

Did Red Bull purposely let Webber out of his pit with one wheel not bolted on so that the wheel could potentially kill someone. No, they didn't. They wouldn't. There are more effective ways of spoiling his race enough so that he comes second and Vettel comes first that don't involve extra risk for cameraman and other teams' crews.

Quote from N I K I :

Ok then, no point arguing Mark's case any further. I'm no core fan of Mark whatsoever, it's just annoying that these things seem to happen to him always.

Research (and by that I don't mean read one Wikipedia article like most people think is research) Chris Amon. There are other examples of drivers that are just unlucky. No conspiracy, no political games, just a lack of fortune.

Well I don't know about a conspiracy, I just know that Vettel has gotten all of the Red Bull fortunes in his favour.

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe Vettel just copes better in adversity. Clutch settings not perfect? He makes up for it in feel off the line. KERS not working? He makes up for it by driving harder (there are few better over a single lap than Vettel) for a period (perhaps to the detriment of his tyres, but he got the balance right on Sunday).

Maybe Mark has a problem and his head drops. Until people start talking about favouritism, which is the impetus he needs to keep his head up.

Psychology is 90% of race car driving.

There's no such thing as 'feel' in modern F1 cars interms of start procedure, surely you of all people know that.

Quote from tristancliffe :

snip snip

That pit-stop was done badly on purpose. It's just that the wheel shouldn't have fallen off so quickly and directly endanger someone. I can still remember myself seeing the whole event in slow motion as it happened.

He stopped, the RR wheel gun man doesn't do anything in first shot, then he 'tries' to wheel it in as everyone has finished, then he tries again and presses the go button on his wheel gun. Next thing you see is camera man getting hit.

It was executed in such way it is obvious it's purposely done. Also it's the same wheel that went off in China.

The same wheel gun then worked faultlessly the entire race for all of the other pit-stops. Remember Force India wheel gun problems at Malaysia. Those were real wheel gun problems. Buttons pitstops went wrong so many times because the crew is simply trying to beat RedBull's pit record, is trying new technology and what-not.

In this instant, you can just clearly notice distinction between something going wrong and something faked to go wrong.

You're right the clutch start slip problems are another matter and as he few times showed he's a bad starter it then began to be used by RedBull against him, since noone would ever suspect it.

Tristan, you believe in this good luck / bad luck thing too much. There is no such thing. There are reasons for everything that happens. It's just too complicated for general public, so we sort it out with saying its good / bad luck deservant for something.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Maybe Mark has a problem and his head drops. Until people start talking about favouritism, which is the impetus he needs to keep his head up.

Psychology is 90% of race car driving.

There is that part of it too. It just makes even less sense why they purposely sabotaged him in that pit-stop.

Quote from N I K I :

=
The same wheel gun then worked faultlessly the entire race for all of the other pit-stops. Remember Force India wheel gun problems at Malaysia. Those were real wheel gun problems. Buttons pitstops went wrong so many times because the crew is simply trying to beat RedBull's pit record, is trying new technology and what-not.

Force India had wheel nut issues, not wheel gun issues.

So McLaren is okay because they were trying to do it quickly, but Red Bull its a conspiracy. k.

Quote from N I K I :

blah blah

It just makes even less sense why they purposely sabotaged him in that pit-stop.

You must be either:

1. Trolling
   
2. Incredibly stupid
   
3. Both
   

Also, saying that the stuff only happens to Mark is very ignorant of you.

Either way:

Jack : It's stupid of me to make such statements when, Psychology is 90% of pitstopping.

Quote from BlueFlame :

There's no such thing as 'feel' in modern F1 cars interms of start procedure, surely you of all people know that.

Of course there is. Not in the paddle, perhaps (although I wouldn't put it past the better teams. I know I'd try to engineer feel into them if I had their money), but Vettel still has feel - via the sound of the engine, and the rate of acceleration, and the chattering of the tyres. He can still use the clutch and the throttle to fine tune the start. It isn't 100% just releasing paddles blindly.

Quote from N I K I :

That pit-stop was done badly on purpose. It's just that the wheel shouldn't have fallen off so quickly and directly endanger someone. I can still remember myself seeing the whole event in slow motion as it happened.

He stopped, the RR wheel gun man doesn't do anything in first shot, then he 'tries' to wheel it in as everyone has finished, then he tries again and presses the go button on his wheel gun. Next thing you see is camera man getting hit.

It was executed in such way it is obvious it's purposely done. Also it's the same wheel that went off in China.

The same wheel gun then worked faultlessly the entire race for all of the other pit-stops. Remember Force India wheel gun problems at Malaysia. Those were real wheel gun problems. Buttons pitstops went wrong so many times because the crew is simply trying to beat RedBull's pit record, is trying new technology and what-not.

In this instant, you can just clearly notice distinction between something going wrong and something faked to go wrong.

You're right the clutch start slip problems are another matter and as he few times showed he's a bad starter it then began to be used by RedBull against him, since noone would ever suspect it.

Tristan, you believe in this good luck / bad luck thing too much. There is no such thing. There are reasons for everything that happens. It's just too complicated for general public, so we sort it out with saying its good / bad luck deservant for something.


There is that part of it too. It just makes even less sense why they purposely sabotaged him in that pit-stop.

Watch it again. It isn't obvious sabotage. You just want to see it as such.

And luck is genuine. Sometimes the cards fall your way, other times they don't. There might be 'reasons' - the cards touch warmer air particles on the left more than the right from a cigar held by the next player, which means the card starts to rotate in a certain way. But the cigar smoke/heat was moved around by an open window. And a bird happened to fly past the window a few moments earlier, disrupting the airflow slightly. But the bird only flew because a worm felt a raindrop land 100 yards away and popped up out of the ground. And the raindrop.........

I could keep going until we're back a million years in the past one one possible route. That is one definition of luck. Webber's cards don't fall his way more often than they do.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Webber's cards don't fall his way more often than they do.

Right. That would mean he risks a touch too much then. I'll watch the replay of pit-stop incident later. I haven't yet, no time at the moment.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Of course there is. Not in the paddle, perhaps (although I wouldn't put it past the better teams. I know I'd try to engineer feel into them if I had their money), but Vettel still has feel - via the sound of the engine, and the rate of acceleration, and the chattering of the tyres. He can still use the clutch and the throttle to fine tune the start. It isn't 100% just releasing paddles blindly.

You have two clutch paddles and a computer. The right foot stays firmly down otherwise what is the point doing a clutch bite procedure?

You have two clutches between standing still and actually racing. There surely cannot be a manipulative feel as you suggest.