So whats the deal with renaults mass damper system?

why after a season and a half has it has suddenly become "illegal?"

was it down to another team or teams that prompted the FIA to take action?

now that there is a testing ban on the horizon, things are looking very rosey for a certain italian team, or am i reading too much into this?

Apparently honda complained. FIA thinks its illegal because the wieght moving up and down helps balance the car and therefore the aero and because anything that influces the aero must not move FIA thinks this is illegal. Thats my understanding of it anyway. I dont really see anything wrong with it though.

Oh and the anti ferrari thing is just getting old. From what i understand ferrari were using this as well.

Plus it's a big heavy weight in the nose of the car, and if it detached in an accident could end up being a bit nasty.

And yep, Ferrari had one too.

And it has been approved for use by the FIA so it will probably be back on the Renault next week. As far as I know the decision to remove the device was made by Renault, not the FIA.

From what I can gather it will be back in the REnault next week. But did ferrari not use their Mass damping system this week? Would it have anything to do with Schumacher playing to his home crowd? Seems rather coincidental that it would be the german Grand Prix that had the removal of the Mass dampers and yet they will be reinstated next week.

I'm sure renault would have run them this weekend after the stewards overrulled the FIA but maybe Renault had already put so much work into getting the cars to run without the mass dampers it was too late to put them back. Dunno though.

Quote from Funnybear :

From what I can gather it will be back in the REnault next week. But did ferrari not use their Mass damping system this week? Would it have anything to do with Schumacher playing to his home crowd? Seems rather coincidental that it would be the german Grand Prix that had the removal of the Mass dampers and yet they will be reinstated next week.

I'm sure renault would have run them this weekend after the stewards overrulled the FIA but maybe Renault had already put so much work into getting the cars to run without the mass dampers it was too late to put them back. Dunno though.

Stop that Anti-/Pro- Ferrari Bullshit. Ferrari had this damping system too, and didnt use it - as the other teams too, that had it - this weekend in Hockenheim. Renault has the problem, that their car is more dependent on that system, cause they suck in producing a well balanced car without cheating tools Saw it LIVE. Alonso drove like a robot. Nothing like feeling for the car, just "full lock" when entering turn, full understeer, until grip comes... No wonder he had tireprobs, AND it's fully understandable why Renault needs that system that much. It helps in getting grip, when Alonso uses his "steer in" technique. Besides the additional weight on the front axle, which balances the usual rear-heavy Renault way better.

It'll be allowed in Hungary, but I bet it'll be banned for good soon, not for performance reasons (the damper tends to affect the suspension more than the aero, and there is nothing in the rules banning movable suspension systems) but for safety reasons. And then, if it happens during the testing ban, Renault will suffer more than any of the other teams that have to stop.

But the urge to say every decision is pro-ferrari is over used in my opinion, it's like people WANT there to be conspiracies when there isn't one.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It'll be allowed in Hungary, but I bet it'll be banned for good soon, not for performance reasons (the damper tends to affect the suspension more than the aero, and there is nothing in the rules banning movable suspension systems) but for safety reasons. And then, if it happens during the testing ban, Renault will suffer more than any of the other teams that have to stop.

But the urge to say every decision is pro-ferrari is over used in my opinion, it's like people WANT there to be conspiracies when there isn't one.

I personally can't see it being banned for safety reasons. It's not like the wing weighs a tonne, the crew can still pick it up. I'm pretty sure there will be rules in place for how much weight is allowed to be placed where.

It's the same in karting, there's a limit to how much weight your allowed to attach to the seat on safety grounds (obviously the seat is the ideal place for adding weight on a kart).

Quote from Vykos :

Renault has the problem, that their car is more dependent on that system, cause they suck in producing a well balanced car without cheating tools

I'm no real fan of Renault but when you compare there budget to the teams they are fighting it's like pocket money in comparison. Maybe they are more dependent on the damper system but there is nothing which states it's illegal. They've used it for over a year now and the FIA have said nothing. The team chose to remove it incase they were disqualified from the GP, and now that the FIA have cleared the rules up it will be back in the car this weekend. If your going to defend Ferrari I wouldn't mention cheating, especially after what they were doing at the start of the year I can't think of a big team on the grid who hasn't twisted or taken the rules to the limit, it's the nature of Formula One.

I can't get it when people say such and such sucks because they are more dependent on this and that. If you can use it to your advantage, then why not ? I bet nearly everyone who plays LFS will have used/use the exploits in setting the car up. The most common one before the patch being the high nose.

Alonso is still a talented driver and has raced many formulas to reach F1, you don't get off with throwing the car into corners like a `robot` in karting and most lower series so I'm sure he has some ability to feel the car .


Keiran

Quote from keiran :

Alonso is still a talented driver and has raced many formulas to reach F1, you don't get off with throwing the car into corners like a `robot` in karting and most lower series so I'm sure he has some ability to feel the car .

I saw him driving yesterday, and it just doesnt look like he has a great feel for the car. It looks so... NOT-sensitive! When he simply turns in full, let the car understeer until he is @ Apex and then uses the TC...

Quote from Vykos69 :

I saw him driving yesterday, and it just doesnt look like he has a great feel for the car. It looks so... NOT-sensitive! When he simply turns in full, let the car understeer until he is @ Apex and then uses the TC...

The Renault was rubbish thats why, his driving style worked at every GP last year and has done him no harm so far this year. I wish people would stop saying he uses to much TC etc. It's there to be used and if it gives you an advantage then why not ? Most of them drivers will be stomping on the pedal these days.

You just have to remember all the drivers on the F1 grid are more than capable of driving quickly. I'm nearly almost certain that an F1 car is the first racing car most of them drivers have raced that has TC.

I'm no fan of Alonso (Coulthard FTW! ) but I don't hate him either. He is a good driver and a smart one at that. You don't get into F1 without talent nor do you win the WC.

He is still a young guy and will constantly learn. Look at Massa he has really come on this year. I remember his first year in F1, he always looked like an accident about to happen. Even last year he was a bit ... well scary

Alonso will be jumping into a totally new car next year, that's IMO his chance to prove how quickly he can adapt his driving style. Would be nice to have Kimi alongside him just to see how well Alonso is actually doing

Keiran

Something I remember is that 2-3 years ago, Alonso's turning technique was completely different. Remember back when the Renault was supposedly the best chassis, but underpowered, and therefore better on twisty tracks?

http://video.google.ca/videopl ... 861448027505&q=Alonso

There we go. Watch this.
I still think Kimi and Michael are on par the best drivers on the grid, far above anyone else.

I think Kimi is one of (if not the) fastest drivers in F1, but imho not among the best. He seems to make more mistakes than others and sometimes I think it's not only bad luck that most times a McLaren doesn't finish, it's his.. (due to technical failures, I mean).
Well maybe that is unfair, as Montoya's car often didn't have the chance to suffer from that..
Maybe my memory is just wrong here, but I think out of the last 10 punctures in F1 Kimi had at least 5. ^^

Here's my summary of the mass damper affair:

Renault first introduced the mass damper around September last year, so only had it for the last few races of the 2005 championship. The FIA's technical delegate was quite happy with it then and made no moves to outlaw it for 2006. The rules governing movable parts which have influence on the aero have not significantly changed from last year either.

The FIA now say they have 'evidence' that the principle purpose of the systems (as currently developed) is to influence aero performance, and as the damper moves and is not rigidly fixed to the sprung part of the car, the FIA have moved to ban the mass damper. The FIA will not divulge the nature or the source of the evidence they based their ruling on.

At the German GP Renault presented the test car for scrutineering with the damper still fitted. They then introduced evidence that showed the principle benefit of the mass damper was to improve mechanical grip by reducing variation in the tyre's contact patch. They also showed data indicating the influence on aero performance was negligible, with negligible change in mean aero load and negligible change in aero load variation. The stewards, who apparently do not have access to the 'evidence' that the FIA claim to have, declared the mass damper legal. The FIA promptly appealed against the Steward's decision, and the appeal will be heard late August/early September.

Renault, although cleared to run the mass damper in Germany, chose not to, in part due to the risk of having results disqualified if the FIA's appeal of the steward's decision is successful. Renault have now got an assurance from the FIA that even if the FIA win the appeal and the mass damper is again declared illegal, that they will ask the court not to penalise teams who choose to run it in the meantime. Renault plan to use the mass damper in Hungary.

The mass damper is estimated to be approx 10Kg (and so is not a huge 'free weight' in the event of accidents) and was stated to have been used by 7 teams during 2006. This is rumoured to include Ferrari and Red Bull. The benefit of the mass damper is considered to be greater for Michelin shod teams due to the Brdgestone tyres having stiffer sidewall construction.

Conspiracy stories aside, Ferrari's Jean Todt has recently stated that Ferrari believe the system to be illegal. This is despite running the system themselves until the ban prior to the German GP. Ross Brawn, when asked if their system was as good as Renault's, said "I don't know how you judge that. It's a useful system for us. I don't know how useful it is for them. We've used it all year, but we're not using it today."

For me, the FIA's ruling is quite a large stretch, and the timing stinks. It is hard to not think it's meddling to spice up a championship. There are plenty of FIA 'pro-Ferrari' and 'anti-Michelin' conspiracies doing the rounds, but for me, without access to the FIA's confidential 'evidence', their ruling is laughable, especially as nearly every component of the car's suspension system could be outlawed for the same reasons. Also, the timing, just before a summer testing ban and in the last third of Michelin's last F1 season (where they probably don't want to throw money at tyre development) doesn't help dispel the conspiracy theories. The FIA's evidence, which must surely be presented at the appeal for it to have any credibility, will need to be rock solid, and not just be Ferrari produced data.

excellent read.

What's next? Ferrari wreckage found at Roswell?

Renault didn't perform well in Indy either. They did have the mass damper back then. They also performed worse than Ferrari in Magny Cours, with the mass damper and with on-par-Michelin tires.

I'd rather think the bad performance on the weekend, while partly being caused by the lack of the damper, was down to a car that was not fit for the track, an off-day by Alonso (he was a second slower than Fisi, that is not due to some missing damper [and if it were, he would not be a deserving champion]) and a tire-choice made necessary by the bad handling car that didn't help either.

Quote from Hoellsen :

Renault didn't perform well in Indy either. They did have the mass damper back then. They also performed worse than Ferrari in Magny Cours, with the mass damper and with on-par-Michelin tires.

What Michelin team performed at Indy ? Michelin were obviously being very safe with there tyres for that weekend. No way could they afford to have another farce, that one in 05 cost them big money.

Again at Magny Cours Renault were the top of the Michelin runners.

Tyres are going to decide this championship. A little rumour is that Michelin have been caught out with this heat wave in Europe. Giving the advantage to the Bridgestone tyre which never really seemed to like cool conditions.

Keiran

Quote from Unclefloug :

i may be imaginging things but im sure i heard on the ITV coverage at last weekends German GP that 6-7 of the teams are using systems like this?

The full statement by the Stewards did state that 7 teams were known to have used a nose mounted mass damper system this year.

It is thought that Michelin teams gain the most from it due to the sidewall construction not being as stiff as the Bridgestone. Also Renault, having been the first to introduce the system in September 2005, probably loose the most from not using it. They probably have little to no experience running the R26 without the system.

anyone know where exactly renault have their damper mounteed?

i'm thinking about a race either ealy this season or late last season where 1 renault lost it's nose and the marshall went to pick it up expecting a light weight structure and had to take another hold of it to pick it up.

if the damper is in the nose cone then i can see why it would be banned on safety grounds as that sort of weight coming off easily could be deadly.

in fact i'm surprised that they didn't ban it under the rules that state that all ballast has to be securely mounted as its effectivly a piece of ballast thats mounted so it can move relative to the rest of the chassis.

the actual technology is nothing new, architechts have been building mass dampers in tall buildings for years to damp out swaying from high winds and earth tremors, usually in the form of a water tank

Quote :

thats a good point i imagine since the system was introduced so early that the R26 front end may have been heavily designed to incorporate this system, taking the system out might effect the car dramatically

Not just the entire front end, but the rear end is ballanced too it aswell, the entire balance of the R26's handling is designed around the mass damper concept, which is why the Renault sucked so badly at Germany.

If you where going to find a technical reason to spice up the championship then this device is just what you'd be looking for.

My only concern is that it doesn't hurt Renault too much, I want to see a battle for the championship, not a silver plate with Michael's dinner on it. Michael is not driving well this year - currently he doesn't even need too and is sandbagging his way to the title. I want to see racing and crippling the Renault when it was already struggling isn't the solution.

ITV showed the Renault system in one of their preview reports.
It sits in the nose cone, level with the join to the rest of the car. Looked like it was securely fitted in there.

If safety is an issue regarding the 10kg or so weight of the device then surely it would not be difficult to teather it in the same way as tyres? There's a bulkhead just behind the front wing which forms the front of the passenger safety cell.

So Renault has 2 bad races with the system and one without and that means their car is totally dependant on the system?

If you want excuses for Renaults recent poor performance look at michelin not the FIA. I have a feeling Renault will be quick this weekend.

Michelin also underperforming adds to the issue, and nullifies the need for the FIA to ban this device in order to make the championship more interesting, but it wasn't the sole reason for the Renault's lack of pace at Germany, which can clearly be seen by second rate car/driver Michelin combinations out performing them whereas at the other two races they did not.

I wonder if Michelin will fight back at all or if they'll just walk away as soon as possible with the minimum expenditure.

I know Renault produced a new engine for the last ever race with the old regs, ok it was an evolutionary engine not a new design, but will Michelin do the same? It's looking like they wont.

Quote from sil3ntwar :

So Renault has 2 bad races with the system and one without and that means their car is totally dependant on the system?

If you want excuses for Renaults recent poor performance look at michelin not the FIA. I have a feeling Renault will be quick this weekend.

Who has been the top Michelin runner in those two races with the system ? Reuanult! Who was top Michelin runner this time without the damper? McLaren.

Keiran