Quote from englishlord :

It doesn't matter who fired it, the plane should not have been there and all this does is expose the need to check the routes of long distance flights because clearly safety is of secondary concern to some airlines.

Well...

this americans...
its nation wich is in war every 5-10 years...


just fly away with that stupid arguments about "ANYTHING" good about america ( political)

Quote from ACCAkut :

Well...

Yeah apparently they fly over Afghanistan as well as a number of dodgy places. They get given information about how high to fly based on what intelligence is available on the range of anti aircraft weapons. Which is ok until Russia or some other large power supplies something bigger on the quiet.

Quote from undertaker00 :

this americans...
its nation wich is in war every 5-10 years...


just fly away with that stupid arguments about "ANYTHING" good about america ( political)

Well in fact, Since 1981 at least, the murderer country no. 1 has continiously been in war.

Obviously this is very logical... as they are the peacekeepers of the world... Come on how stupid is it to think that there might be some other interest?

Quote from englishlord :

The shitty thing is the politically based finger pointing from sides. The blame is entirely on the cost cutting airlines.

Pretty sure it's on the guy(s) who pulled the trigger.

Do you blame girls who get raped walking home at night, too?

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Pretty sure it's on the guy(s) who pulled the trigger.

Do you blame girls who get raped walking home at night, too?

Eh?

For-profit companies who knowingly stick to a route in which two military planes have just recently been blown up in order to cut costs are completely different from victims of sexual assault.

The economic motivations of all this cluster**** make themselves evident at each successive stage of the conflict. Everyone involved is at fault.

Let's not forget that NATO supplied the initial separatist movement against which the Russian-backed separatists are now fighting with just as much firepower as Putin has given his friends, and their history of military fúckups is just as worrisome.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Pretty sure it's on the guy(s) who pulled the trigger.

Do you blame girls who get raped walking home at night, too?

Pretty sure it's on the party causing the guy(s) pulling a trigger. Fight the source .. not the outcome.

Also why I respect the posts of Racer X. Good effort!

Quote from Yuri Laszlo :

Eh?

For-profit companies who knowingly stick to a route in which two military planes have just recently been blown up in order to cut costs are completely different from victims of sexual assault.

The economic motivations of all this cluster**** make themselves evident at each successive stage of the conflict. Everyone involved is at fault.

Let's not forget that NATO supplied the initial separatist movement against which the Russian-backed separatists are now fighting with just as much firepower as Putin has given his friends, and their history of military fúckups is just as worrisome.

It's still victim-blaming.

As ACCAkut pointed out, these routes are and have been standard operating procedure. A military force of one kind or another shot a civilian plane out of the sky here. That should never happen. End of story.

danielroelofs, you really shouldn't encourage mental illness.

http://news.msn.com/world/us-o ... st-russia-on-downed-plane

So, what should the US do about it? I'm always of the opinion that we should just isolate when possible, but I don't see us doing that.

Quote from dfgjkl :

fake test-tube with chemical weapon of iraq,saddam husein



supposedly hides it.which never was found.they just were lie.Iraq destroyed,chemical weapons are not found, but who cares?

I think the non-naive people with a mental illness Probably those from Europe and Asia

Quote from Cornys :

http://news.msn.com/world/us-o ... st-russia-on-downed-plane

So, what should the US do about it? I'm always of the opinion that we should just isolate when possible, but I don't see us doing that.

Fair question. Look for which genuine interests stand in the way to a plain withdraw, which both the USA and the EU should do imo.

The Ukraine has tons of natural resources in very high amounts compared to other countries in Europe. One of the richest areas of manganese-bearing ores in the world is in Ukraine, the coal mines belong to the deepest in Europe, Ukraine has natural gas and oil (we know undeniably by now how important that is to the U.S.), titanium ores and many more important resources.

Well what would be an amazingly intelligent way (instead of building a strong economy) to ensure a certain value for a currency? Yes let's create an enemy and based on that we can justify war which leads to controlling key locations or situations. From 2.35 min you can understand why having an enemy is so important. And if you don't have one, let's create one, which individual soldier would risk his life for nothing? Although they do the same now,.. they just think they are not.

So basically the USA did the trick to provide weapons to both parties currently fighting in the Ukraine. What more can you do if you want to start a war? Old and often before used tactic. As your own former congressman says The U.S. caused riots starting to happen in the Ukraine, as they got a lot of experience with doing that in other countries. as a former U.S. intelligence officer states. This to get financial control over important natural resources. I hear you thinking.. control? how? It's in the Ukraine? Yes.. what is (was if the USA didnt create so much wars in the past 10 years) the world currency.. the dollar. It is for the value of the Dollar from vital importance to keep doing oil transactions or others in Dollars. It was from big importance that Lybia could not change the oil transactions into another currency which is a fact that he would do that. The rebels were supplied to cause shit which led to a so called reason for war. The Dollar was/is balancing on the very edge while many economists say it still is.

Then listen to Your own former president about what he states as a great danger to the USA. Guess who was the next president? I guess him and that military industrial complex had some issues, we know how they solved that. The military is a money making business in general and for some key important players in that system of the usa. General Dynamics fort worth, Texas, who owned that? Who build which material? Find out why Vietnam had to go on. Nothing has changed ever since.

The U.S. has great interest in the natural resources of the Ukraine and does the same, at least to avoid it falling in the hands of one of the biggest world power: Russia. All that happened with that plance and especially the way it happened as Nilex, Racer X etc all showed above.. this whole case stinks and hasnt happened as the so called official stories do tell us on the western established media. We have had or could have had for the ones shutting their eyes so many moments to learn. Weren't the U.K. and the USA shouting that there were weapons of mass destruction, again creating a dangerous enemy to go to war? Did we all, not bother about what the true reasons were? So many people from the U.S. government especially began to speak out on what the real interests were. My ass that a true well funded terrorist group or sudden riot appeared in Jemen, Sudan, Egypt, Lybia, Saudi Arabia, Bahrein, Syria, Iraq. 22 countries were invaded by the U.S. ( got the feeling this doesn't even cause some kind of shock anymore) over the past 20 years. Russia has a huge fleet in Crimea and when tensions building he wants to keep that sage, for very clear and obvious reasons which no reason to believe he would need more or he would have had plans to invade other countries. And the whole world is going crazy. What's not right here?

And especially for my friend DeadWolfBones who clearly has a hard time accepting that his country might not have invaded a million countries by the last 7 years or so for other's benefits. This is what I really call mental Illness: Brainwashed to say the least! I am not sure if in Europe there existed one living person older than 4 that could take laughable president Bush for example serious.

Isnt a statement from the us: "To sin by silnce when we should protest, makes cowards out of men" ?

As mustangman stated himself: "History speaks", but certainly not in favor of the US. Both the US and EU should stop this nonsence

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

It's still victim-blaming.

As ACCAkut pointed out, these routes are and have been standard operating procedure. A military force of one kind or another shot a civilian plane out of the sky here. That should never happen. End of story.

danielroelofs, you really shouldn't encourage mental illness.

Victim blaming? You think the airline company is the victim? I'd rather say the passengers and the crew are the victims, you know, the dead people. They didn't get a say on the route.

I think, if anything, this proves that the Cold War has simply been sleeping, and is far from dead. (But I don't think anybody ever thought differently for too long).

Geopolitics teaches us that Russia will continue to be an agressor (I have nothing against Russian people, no offence to those of you on here who are from Russia). At the same time, like all countries, the United States fears lossing its influence and wealth that it holds so dearly. The American people are more or less ignorent when it comes to finance (as an average), and we (as an average) go bonkers if our cost of living goes up (gasoline, oil, natural gas, electricity, clothing, ect.), but yet we moan if jobs are hard to find and moving over seas to where it is cheaper for companies to opperate. Our own people don't realize that these two tendencies are connected.

Also, I don't think many people realize that higher transportation prices would be one of the best things for our job market. Manufacturing jobs would not move half the world away to save money (because higher transportation costs would off set any manufacturing savings), and as Mexico's economy has improved thanks to NAFTA, so will all of Centeral & South America's if the FTAA goes through (very slowly, and Mexico's can still improve vastly from today's status)

Fact of the matter is that the American people are very greedy. They expect the government to be greedy for them, and it's only a small faction that cares about.. well.. much of anything moral until after the fact. History does show this. Vietnam, Afghanistan (2x), Iraq, Korea, ect. all shows that the US gets into wars for little reason that has little to do with the US other than economic reason.

WWII was the only time that we got involved with a war which we should have, and I personally think that was the United States' greatest moment in history. It's all been down hill from there even as we have esentially "lead the world" from that point.

I'm not at all a fan of Communisim; I'm not a big fan of Capitalism (it's just barely better than Communism), and I'm not real fond of socialism. Where does that leave me? I'm not sure.

I'm not very patriotic, sorry.

Quote from dfgjkl :

fake test-tube with chemical weapon of iraq,saddam husein



supposedly hides it.which never was found.they just were lie.Iraq destroyed,chemical weapons are not found, but who cares?

So did all the Olympic rings open on your end? This will give us a fair view of who we are dealing with here...

So are the British brain washed too? Their PM is favoring Russia as at fault.
Also FTR... I don't like our nation invading/occupying other nations. But I do support our troops.

Paul Craig Roberts, an American, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy and associate editor of the Wall Street Journal. He was columnist for Business Week, Scripps Howard News Service, and Creators Syndicate. He has had many university appointments.

Just to keep you all happy.........

"Washington’s propaganda machine is in such high gear that we are in danger of losing the facts that we do have.
One fact is that the separatists do not have the expensive Buk anti-aircraft missile system or the trained personnel to operate it.

Another fact is that the separatists have no incentive to shoot down an airliner and neither does Russia. Anyone can tell the difference between low-flying attack aircraft and an airliner at 33,000 feet.
The Ukrainians do have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner.
One Russian general familiar with the weapon system offered his opinion that it was a mistake made by the Ukrainian military untrained in the weapon’s use. The general said that although Ukraine has a few of the weapons, Ukrainians have had no training in their use in the 23 years since Ukraine separated from Russia. The general thinks it was an accident due to incompetence.

This explanation makes a certain amount of sense and far more sense than Washington’s propaganda. The problem with the general’s explanation is that it does not explain why the Buk anti-aircraft missile system was deployed near or in a separatist territory. The separatists have no aircraft. It seems odd for Ukraine to have an expensive missile system in an area in which it is of no military use and where the position could be overrun and captured by separatists.
As Washington, Kiev, and the presstitute media are committed to the propaganda that Putin did it, we are not going to get any reliable information from the US media. We will have to figure it out for ourselves.

The Interfax news agency citing anonymous sources, apparently air traffic controllers, reported that the Malaysian airliner and Putin’s airliner were traveling almost the identical route within a few minutes of one another. Interfax quotes its source: “I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft at 15:44 Moscow time. The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical.”
http://www.countercurrents.org/roberts200714.htm

IMPORTANT FACT: The Ukrainians do have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner.

ANOTHER IMPORTANT FACT: There WERE Ukraine Migs in the area of the aircraft, ( Possible to shoot down Putins aircraft ) a simple check will determine what destroyed it (MH17)......

Another fact which is not reported by the 'Western Media', owned by who ?

This is a Russian source, again, I expect you to write it off as 'Propoganda", while your media is squeaky clean.....

Questions

1. The story of the Ukrainian Air Force fighter jets reportedly seen accompanying MH17, the fact that eye witnesses claim they heard shots before the explosion and the taking over of Air Traffic Control by unknown persons (2);

2. The rumors that President Putin was believed to be flying over the same route at the time: Malaysia Airlines confirms "A flight from a different carrier was on the same route at the time of the MH17 incident" (1). Sources who have asked not to be named have claimed that the Russian President's aircraft has very similar contours and coloring to MH17 and that both aircraft intersected at the same point and altitude at a similar time. It was 200 miles behind MH 17. In the event it did not fly over Ukraine, but the trajectory could have fooled those who wanted to murder President Putin. NATO?;

3. Kiev's wrath against anti-Kiev commander Bes, who operates precisely in the area of the downed jetliner and the video tape of a supposed conversation between him and subordinates, uploaded five hours after the crash but placing the time of the crash 35 minutes before it actually took place. The log of the video shows it was made on July 16, so one day before the incident took place (3);

4. The video of a recorded conversation between a Ukrainian military pilot and command flying in the area at the same time (3);

5. The question of the BUK-M1 9K37 (Gadfly/SA-11) Missile system, which is a sophisticated piece of weaponry. The BUK surface-to-air missile system was developed in 1979. It consists of a Target Acquisition Radar (TAR), a Transporter Erector Launcher And Radar (TELAR) and a Transporter Erector Launcher (TEL). It is not a hand-held or shoulder-launched missile one can buy for 50,000 USD from any arms dealer. It is a sophisticated piece of equipment used by States.

If the anti-Kiev forces did use such a system, then those who use a BUK-M1 know how to differentiate between a military aircraft and a civilian one. A trigger-happy pilot might not.

6. The South-Eastern anti-Kiev forces have stated categorically that their own missile systems do not operate above 10,000 feet, much less at over 30,000 feet.
http://english.pravda.ru/opini ... 2014/128094-nato_putin-0/

I've already posted about why the US would want this, plus the fact they've planned to do this in the past. Plus how this will advance US objectives in the region. Why would Russia, what do they gain ?

Quote from Mustangman759 :

But I do support our troops.

Well, that's just dandy, so you support the cannon fodder. To quote George Carlin; "I do this real moron thing, it's called thinking, and I'm not a very good Amercian because I like to form my own opionions.” "Most Americans just roll over on command"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDw-zFFhFgc

Quote from dfgjkl :

how come is US crap is better taste then Russian crap to you?

Russia and Poetin blame Ukraine for this but Russia manages to block and cover up everything whats happening there. Dead body's, families into -a lot- of distress and stealing private stuff from the dead, hiding black boxes. Done by Russians. Rat-like behavior. This handling is even against any war code to just let bodies rot in the fields.

The respect for any Russian has dropped to about 0 Kelvin and you are far from an exception. You should be very ashamed about whats going on.

The US however, is ready to help. Thats why the US is better, understood?

Your talking about a long time brewing civil war in the Ukraine. This is not a country in the accepted sense, it's lines drawn on a map.

Russia are actually doing their best to keep out of it. Please ignore Western propoganda because its a real load of c#@^. Who instigated this coup, created this new govt ?, The US.....

The reason the West (BANKERS, US, Syphilitic Drone State's, (inc NZ)) is so down on Russia is them (Russia, China, non aligned states) changing the game over the US dollar being the default currency. That is the fundermental reason for this, same as it was in Iraq, same as it was in Lybia, etc etc, etc......

This info is on the web, lots of it, as well as analysis stating the US would need to go to war with Russia and China to restore its hegenomy with regards it's fake banking system.

Russia have been quiet about the attempt to kill Putin, because if they recognise it then they have to do something, their strategy appears to be economic, while the US strategy appears to be military.

Do try reading up about this game, if you don't understand what's happening then you just end up quoting US propoganda.

Check my post above, Who had anti-aircraft batteries of the type credited with shooting MH17 down in the area ? The Ukraine Govt.
And why ?, the Rebel's ( Sorry, Freedom Fighters/Terrorists) don't have aircraft.........
Who had 2 Migs airborne in that area that could have shot the plane down ? The Ukraine Govt.
Who has just been made a member of NATO. ? The Ukraine Govt.
Who is the US/Israels newest bestest ever buddy ? The Ukraine Govt.

Cause and effect; WHAT does Russia gain ?, What do the Bankers gain ? Just think about it...........

Shouldn't have clicked "View post", Racer X going antizionist again..

I'm wondering what's to happen between Malaysia and Russia. Tensions run high atm due to Russia's annexation of all material (including the dead, evidently)

Quote from ACCAkut :

Shouldn't have clicked "View post", Racer X going antizionist again..

So 'Bankers' equates to Zionists ? If the hat fit's.

And Russia does not run the seperatists in the Ukraine. Russia is getting no end of abuse for not supporting them more.

I'm not excusing their actions, but considering the fact that a Civil War is going on it's not completely surprising.

This is a fairly good report about whats actually going on, not reported by the west for some reason....

"For days and nights prior to the catastrophe of Malaysia Airlines flight 17, the orphans had lived with the constant murmur of bombs in the middle distance. Their orphanage is not far from Saur Mogila, a strategic bit of high ground dominating the area and occupied by pro-Russian rebels. Even as I visited the orphanage on Saturday, the Ukrainian military proceeded with attacks using Grad multiple rocket launchers, which are designed, as soldiers say, to "clear a grid square" of any living thing.

“I saw eight more bodies up the street that day, all of them mostly naked, falling right from the clouds on us,” said Larisa Zvereva, a teacher at the orphanage that houses 20 children. Her charges must have holy protection, she said, because not a single falling body, nor any piece of the airplane hurt the children or local people. Then Zvereva began to sob uncontrollably, remembering the wounds, the torn limbs and missing parts of bodies.

Saturday was a day of mourning in Donbass, as this eastern region of Ukraine is called. Locals arranged flowers and toys and lit candles around broken parts of the plane. Three big sunflowers were lying on the still fresh imprint of a human body in the soil in the orphanage yard.

“I want to know why that boy died,” said one of the orphans, 14-year-old Ruslan. He and the other children read the news on line to find out the true reason behind the deaths of the Malaysian Boeing’s passengers and crew. Why did almost 300 children and adults fall six miles through space, their clothes ripped away by the blast and the rush of air, until they landed on roofs, in yards, on streets and in fields?

Maybe when the Torez orphans are grown there will be a truly definitive picture of what happened. For now, even the tragedy that left many local people in shock and heartbroken has not brought on a lull in the fighting. Ukrainian warplanes and helicopters continue to fly over the area all the time, and often they bomb with little accuracy or discrimination.

On the corpse-littered fields of Donbass, there is nothing but the carnage of war, and as long as that continues, so will the chance that civilians will be slaughtered, and the blame will be passed until the world forgets about the day the bodies fell from the sky. But, of course, the orphans of Torez never will."
http://www.thedailybeast.com/a ... -saw-the-mh17-horror.html

Such is war, and that's what's going on here.
My points regarding the equipment in the area and who operated it still stand.

Quote from Cornys :

I'm not at all a fan of Communisim; I'm not a big fan of Capitalism (it's just barely better than Communism), and I'm not real fond of socialism. Where does that leave me? I'm not sure.

I'm not very patriotic, sorry.

It doesn't require a sorry imo. It needs more courage to have an own opinion in the middle of a situation where most ppl just follow what they've been told. "The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it". Is just soo true. I'm not patriotic about The Netherlands as well, they are a bunch of ****.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Russia are actually doing their best to keep out of it. Please ignore Western propoganda because its a real load of c#@^. Who instigated this coup, created this new govt ?, The US.....

The reason the West (BANKERS, US, Syphilitic Drone State's, (inc NZ)) is so down on Russia is them (Russia, China, non aligned states) changing the game over the US dollar being the default currency. That is the fundermental reason for this, same as it was in Iraq, same as it was in Lybia, etc etc, etc......

This info is on the web, lots of it, as well as analysis stating the US would need to go to war with Russia and China to restore its hegenomy with regards it's fake banking system.

Do try reading up about this game, if you don't understand what's happening then you just end up quoting US propoganda.

Check my post above, Who had anti-aircraft batteries of the type credited with shooting MH17 down in the area ? The Ukraine Govt.
And why ?, the Rebel's ( Sorry, Freedom Fighters/Terrorists) don't have aircraft.........
Who had 2 Migs airborne in that area that could have shot the plane down ? The Ukraine Govt.
Who has just been made a member of NATO. ? The Ukraine Govt.
Who is the US/Israels newest bestest ever buddy ? The Ukraine Govt.

Good post. Only by discovering interests of parties involved a decent opinion can be shaped. It's like putting your hand very close to your face, ppl see probably only a part of 1 finger, it will be so hard to accept information not fitting in their current conceptual way of thinking. Just by being open for reality and new information eventually makes your hand go away further from the face and u'll be able to connect the dots.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Check my post above, Who had anti-aircraft batteries of the type credited with shooting MH17 down in the area ? The Ukraine Govt.
And why ?, the Rebel's ( Sorry, Freedom Fighters/Terrorists) don't have aircraft.........
Who had 2 Migs airborne in that area that could have shot the plane down ? The Ukraine Govt.
Who has just been made a member of NATO. ? The Ukraine Govt.
Who is the US/Israels newest bestest ever buddy ? The Ukraine Govt.

Cause and effect; WHAT does Russia gain ?, What do the Bankers gain ? Just think about it...........

Can you please provide some source saying that rebels DO NOT have AA guns capable of shooting down the airplane?

Also is there any reason for them to hiding evidence including dead bodies, except the case they don't want to have them compromised by the international investigation? Any reason why the rebel side should be more trustworthy?

Thanks

You still did not anawer my question

Quote from dfgjkl :

*The respect for ANY Russian has dropped* Stupid thing to say and

Stupid thing not to be very sorry about this tragic accident and not cooperating in world ethics. See you are selfish again, focusing only on the bit that somebody has no respect for Russian people.

23 years ago we held a national event to help the Russians to get "through the winter" (1991), it resulted in 742.586.400 RUB of aid (18 million Euro). Not that it's needed anymore but I'm sure if it would be done again TV stations are not even be able to transmit so much anger is there right now. It might as well be the same people which donated who are now left rotten in the fields, train, whatever. Good job, be proud of that accomplishment.

.

Quote from dfgjkl :

all in the world feal sory for what hapen with b777 and russia no doubt that.Why u r saying that thay are dont?why u blame russia?And why u addres this to me personaly and in same time its all russia in ur words?

Because you have the bad luck for this relatively short moment you come from the 'wrong' country in the eyes of the western world. My previous post is removed although not a bad word was said, but the way that guy was insulting you, is the same as happened to the Germans during/after WWII probably.

I find it especially very dumb, and need to say again that the only the ones looking for the real truth, contribute to avoiding such things from happening in the future, and therefor pay the most respect to the whole plane situation. With everything I have read, seen and heard I formed an opinion that to me it is most probably not Russia behind the attack. The checks and balances of motives, interests and history.

hehe.. no no.. i dont compare you guys with them In this plane situation, I think Russia not wrong.