Lets have a look at the latest info about MH17, as I'm sure that many people would like an outcome on what actually happened to the flight. Especially those who's relatives and friends were killed.

On Aug. 11, the Dutch Safety Board announced that a preliminary report would be published in a week with the first factual finding of the ongoing investigation into the flight that departed from Amsterdam and crashed in Ukraine. The Netherlands was given custody of the flight data recorder, or black box recordings, from the crash.
As of Aug. 25, the Dutch government has refused to release the recordings.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/f ... ck-box-recordings/5398571

Russia is demanding to know why international investigators have yet to publish the black box data from a Malaysian airliner that was shot down over eastern Ukraine in July, a deputy defence minister said in an interview published on Saturday.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new ... m-downed-flight-MH17.html

MALAYSIA Airlines will cut 6000 workers as part of a $US1.9 billion ($2 billion) overhaul to revive its damaged brand after being hit by double passenger jet disasters.
http://www.news.com.au/finance ... ry-e6frfm1i-1227041964578

And lets not forget this strange fact.........
In fact, I'm unaware of this being part of an investigation into an aircraft crash EVER.

This was confirmed at a news briefing in Kiev held by the office of the Prosecutor General Yuri Boychenko:
“In his words, the results of the investigation will be published once completed only if a consensus agreement of all parties that have signed the agreement prevails.”
http://21stcenturywire.com/201 ... ion-to-remain-classified/

So, I wonder which country is blocking the release of information ?

Or, in fact, why such an agreement was ever signed in the first place ?
( Australia, Holland, Belgium, Malaysia, looking at you here.........., for the Ukraine its a b(**#! obvious 'get out of jail free' card )

Based on everything I've read, here's my theory.

SU 25M, which easily has the hight and speed to do this, was radar reported to be at a suitable hight and range, and is armed with R-60 air to air missiles, fired and hit an engine, As MH17 turned and dropped in hight (as reported by Russian radar) it then was destroyed by 30mm cannon fire from the aircraft.
This could easily be confirmed by the blackbox voice recorders, air traffic controllers audio recordings, and by physical examination of the aircraft.
Regarding the physical examination, I've posted pictures already of the cockpit area showing damage similar to 30mm cannon fire.

We're probably never going to get the voice recorder info, or the communication with air traffic control as the recordings were seized by the Ukraine immediatly afterwards.

And this is Wikipedia on how a BUK system works.
A proximity fuse aboard the missile determines when it will detonate, creating an expanding fragmentation pattern of missile components and warhead to intercept and destroy the target. A proximity fuse improves the "probability of kill" given the missile and target closure rates, which can be more than 3,000 km/h (1,900 mph) (or more than 900 m/s (3,000 ft/s)).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

You would therefore expect damage over the entire aircraft, rather than only around the cockpit area.

And this is interesting.
Media did pick up on several sound bites, including one by U.S. Vice President Joe Biden the day of the incident. Biden stated that MH17 “had been shot down and blown out of the sky” over eastern Ukraine. It’s interesting Reuters “tweeted” Biden’s comment at 1:42 p.m. on the day of the tragedy, 4 hours and 30 minutes after the plane was lost. This means it’s logical to assume Biden “knew” what happened to MH17 literally minutes after the fact.
http://www.japantoday.com/cate ... world-ever-know-the-truth

This is the biggest clue that there will never be an honest investigation into what happened.

This is all the more remarkable given that the US was heading a 10-day NATO exercise, Sea Breeze, which concluded the day MH17 was downed.
Warships and aircraft from seven NATO countries, including the US, Britain, Romania and Turkey, took part in the Black Sea drill which involved commercial traffic monitoring and “reaction to asymmetric threat warnings, anti-submarine warfare and artillery firing.” But the presence of sophisticated electronic intelligence in the vicinity has apparently yielded nothing as to the circumstances surrounding MH17’s crash.
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/08/06/side-a06.html

Has this made western media ?????????

Lets see, NATO countries having drill, US wants Ukraine in NATO, see earlier posts, Ukraine gets to shut down the investigation, hmmmmmm...........

TL;DR. It was Russia. Must have been because their so good at hiding what they do from all the awesome western spying technology.

Edit: This is awesome, Dutch Safety Board official PDF. Take a deep sniff and see what you can smell...........

The draft versions of the preliminary report will be discussed by the international investigation team and with the Board prior to being published. The ICAO states that the normal period required for drawing up a preliminary report is 2-4 weeks, however justified exceptions are permitted. Given the particular and complex circumstances surrounding this occurence , it is not yet exactly clear when the preliminary report will be published.
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/u ... rs_investigation_MH17.pdf

'Particular and complex circumstances' is an interesting phrase for a political statement. The rest of it is also well worth reading, just pay careful attention to the exact use of words.

Shot down and blown out of the sky are both idioms. Biden is well known for his poorly descriptive language and basically sounding like a demented and slightly drunk old man.

If Russia had evidence of innocence they would be shouting it from the rooftops, but they cannot refute evidence of cooperation between Moscow and rebel artillery crews on that day and time. Occam's razor.

Particular and complex circumstances... I kind of like that the international community would like to know whether rebels shooting down a jet with Russian assistance is an accident or an act of war against all involved countries.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Lets have a look at the latest info about MH17, as I'm sure that many people would like an outcome on what actually happened to the flight. Especially those who's relatives and friends were killed.

On Aug. 11, the Dutch Safety Board announced that a preliminary report would be published in a week with the first factual finding of the ongoing investigation into the flight that departed from Amsterdam and crashed in Ukraine. The Netherlands was given custody of the flight data recorder, or black box recordings, from the crash.
As of Aug. 25, the Dutch government has refused to release the recordings.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/f ... ck-box-recordings/5398571

Russia is demanding to know why international investigators have yet to publish the black box data from a Malaysian airliner that was shot down over eastern Ukraine in July, a deputy defence minister said in an interview published on Saturday.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new ... m-downed-flight-MH17.html

MALAYSIA Airlines will cut 6000 workers as part of a $US1.9 billion ($2 billion) overhaul to revive its damaged brand after being hit by double passenger jet disasters.
http://www.news.com.au/finance ... ry-e6frfm1i-1227041964578

And lets not forget this strange fact.........
In fact, I'm unaware of this being part of an investigation into an aircraft crash EVER.

This was confirmed at a news briefing in Kiev held by the office of the Prosecutor General Yuri Boychenko:
“In his words, the results of the investigation will be published once completed only if a consensus agreement of all parties that have signed the agreement prevails.”
http://21stcenturywire.com/201 ... ion-to-remain-classified/

So, I wonder which country is blocking the release of information ?

Or, in fact, why such an agreement was ever signed in the first place ?
( Australia, Holland, Belgium, Malaysia, looking at you here.........., for the Ukraine its a b(**#! obvious 'get out of jail free' card )

Based on everything I've read, here's my theory.

SU 25M, which easily has the hight and speed to do this, was radar reported to be at a suitable hight and range, and is armed with R-60 air to air missiles, fired and hit an engine, As MH17 turned and dropped in hight (as reported by Russian radar) it then was destroyed by 30mm cannon fire from the aircraft.
This could easily be confirmed by the blackbox voice recorders, air traffic controllers audio recordings, and by physical examination of the aircraft.
Regarding the physical examination, I've posted pictures already of the cockpit area showing damage similar to 30mm cannon fire.

We're probably never going to get the voice recorder info, or the communication with air traffic control as the recordings were seized by the Ukraine immediatly afterwards.

And this is Wikipedia on how a BUK system works.
A proximity fuse aboard the missile determines when it will detonate, creating an expanding fragmentation pattern of missile components and warhead to intercept and destroy the target. A proximity fuse improves the "probability of kill" given the missile and target closure rates, which can be more than 3,000 km/h (1,900 mph) (or more than 900 m/s (3,000 ft/s)).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

You would therefore expect damage over the entire aircraft, rather than only around the cockpit area.

And this is interesting.
Media did pick up on several sound bites, including one by U.S. Vice President Joe Biden the day of the incident. Biden stated that MH17 “had been shot down and blown out of the sky” over eastern Ukraine. It’s interesting Reuters “tweeted” Biden’s comment at 1:42 p.m. on the day of the tragedy, 4 hours and 30 minutes after the plane was lost. This means it’s logical to assume Biden “knew” what happened to MH17 literally minutes after the fact.
http://www.japantoday.com/cate ... world-ever-know-the-truth

This is the biggest clue that there will never be an honest investigation into what happened.

This is all the more remarkable given that the US was heading a 10-day NATO exercise, Sea Breeze, which concluded the day MH17 was downed.
Warships and aircraft from seven NATO countries, including the US, Britain, Romania and Turkey, took part in the Black Sea drill which involved commercial traffic monitoring and “reaction to asymmetric threat warnings, anti-submarine warfare and artillery firing.” But the presence of sophisticated electronic intelligence in the vicinity has apparently yielded nothing as to the circumstances surrounding MH17’s crash.
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/08/06/side-a06.html

Has this made western media ?????????

Lets see, NATO countries having drill, US wants Ukraine in NATO, see earlier posts, Ukraine gets to shut down the investigation, hmmmmmm...........

TL;DR. It was Russia. Must have been because their so good at hiding what they do from all the awesome western spying technology.

Edit: This is awesome, Dutch Safety Board official PDF. Take a deep sniff and see what you can smell...........

The draft versions of the preliminary report will be discussed by the international investigation team and with the Board prior to being published. The ICAO states that the normal period required for drawing up a preliminary report is 2-4 weeks, however justified exceptions are permitted. Given the particular and complex circumstances surrounding this occurence , it is not yet exactly clear when the preliminary report will be published.
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/u ... rs_investigation_MH17.pdf

'Particular and complex circumstances' is an interesting phrase for a political statement. The rest of it is also well worth reading, just pay careful attention to the exact use of words.

pineapples

William Binney, former Technical Director, World Geopolitical & Military Analysis, NSA; co-founder, SIGINT Automation Research Center (ret.)
David MacMichael, National Intelligence Council (ret.)
Ray McGovern, former US Army infantry/intelligence officer & CIA analyst (ret.)
Elizabeth Murray, Deputy National Intelligence Officer for Middle East (ret.)
Todd E. Pierce, MAJ, US Army Judge Advocate (Ret.)
Coleen Rowley, Division Counsel & Special Agent, FBI (ret.)
Ann Wright, Col., US Army (ret.); Foreign Service Officer (resigned)

The above have all been senior US intelligence officers, this is the letter they have sent to Angela Merkel, Chancellor of Germany ahead of the NATO summit later this week.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/ ... merkel-avoid-all-out-ukra

We the undersigned are longtime veterans of U.S. intelligence. We take the unusual step of writing this open letter to you to ensure that you have an opportunity to be briefed on our views prior to the NATO summit on September 4-5.

You need to know, for example, that accusations of a major Russian "invasion" of Ukraine appear not to be supported by reliable intelligence. Rather, the "intelligence" seems to be of the same dubious, politically "fixed" kind used 12 years ago to "justify" the U.S.-led attack on Iraq. We saw no credible evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq then; we see no credible evidence of a Russian invasion now. Twelve years ago, former Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, mindful of the flimsiness of the evidence on Iraqi WMD, refused to join in the attack on Iraq. In our view, you should be appropriately suspicions of charges made by the US State Department and NATO officials alleging a Russian invasion of Ukraine.

President Barack Obama tried yesterday to cool the rhetoric of his own senior diplomats and the corporate media, when he publicly described recent activity in the Ukraine, as "a continuation of what’s been taking place for months now … it’s not really a shift."

Obama, however, has only tenuous control over the policymakers in his administration – who, sadly, lack much sense of history, know little of war, and substitute anti-Russian invective for a policy. One year ago, hawkish State Department officials and their friends in the media very nearly got Mr. Obama to launch a major attack on Syria based, once again, on "intelligence" that was dubious, at best.

Largely because of the growing prominence of, and apparent reliance on, intelligence we believe to be spurious, we think the possibility of hostilities escalating beyond the borders of Ukraine has increased significantly over the past several days. More important, we believe that this likelihood can be avoided, depending on the degree of judicious skepticism you and other European leaders bring to the NATO summit next week.

Hopefully, your advisers have reminded you of NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen’s checkered record for credibility. It appears to us that Rasmussen’s speeches continue to be drafted by Washington. This was abundantly clear on the day before the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq when, as Danish Prime Minister, he told his Parliament: "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. This is not something we just believe. We know."

EDIT: 2/9/2014: 5.56 pm NZ time: And, from the insanity that wants WW part 3..........

Kiev has received threats of nuclear retaliation from Russia through unofficial channels if it continues to fight pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine, the Ukrainian Minister of Defence, Valeriy Heletey, announced on his Facebook page on Monday.
http://www.newsweek.com/russia ... minister-267842?piano_d=1

This info is clearly pulled from his @#$) area, the same as the rest of their (Kiev's) info is. Yes, their getting their asses kicked with their conventional war, yes, there's a NATO summit coming up. What's creating a World Holocaust compaired with bankers making money ??????????

Newsflash: in NZ, we don't care if Europe/the America's (geography lesson for Americans) gets nuked, Not our problem. We will just go on, learning point, this is what happens when people are idiots.....
Smiley face, Money making opportunity.....

So, here's a special deal for people on the forum.........

"Here is the last message from your ($NAME_HERE/RELATIONSHIP)
They have a memorial ($PLACE_HERE)
They payed ($TO_ME_NOW_PLEASE) to be remembered.

We will never forget (TILL_$_RUN_OUT)

My Company is here to support you, please pay $ now before it's too late.........

( Why not, clearly it's only about $.... )

PM me now for this exclusive deal, never to be repeated.....
But wait, there's more......., ("$IF_U_PM_WITHIN_A_LIMITED_TIME")"

Been great talking with you all..........

Goodbye

No money ? Cool, been great to know u.......

For the rest of u, we have a great deal to allow your sad asses to be remembered by your descendents.......

Please, we really want to make money from your sad illusions.........

Please pay money now, when it all turns to crap, then it's too late.........
Without a huge markup, cus I really care, no, really, I actually do care about ur history.........

Good post racer. Good information.

I read more then ridiculous news articles here in the western media as well. t's shocking how quickly a opinion is created through controlled media in a country.

About that secret pact which is signed by Belgium, The Netherlands and the Ukraine.. this has been shown on western media, be it not the true main stream media. Although they've said Malasia refused to sign the pact. When there are no secret interests to cover, no secret pacts would be necessary. But in that case full BBC documentaires would be shown on western media probably which would lead to a complete different common opinion. This is not what the usa and EU wants of course, public must all stay as stupid as they are now.

Fact is that there are many people here luckily who still use their brains. If an online newspaper article appears which is completely against Russia. Most of the replies (from what i've seen) estimated about 90% completely disagrees with the article and is pro russia on this matter at least. It are probably the more interested ones, looking to the knowledge about the subject which they present in their replies. Anyway.. this majority.. rather seems to copy stuff than using own brains. Sheep.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

No money ? Cool, been great to know u.......

For the rest of u, we have a great deal to allow your sad asses to be remembered by your descendents.......

Please, we really want to make money from your sad illusions.........

Please pay money now, when it all turns to crap, then it's too late.........
Without a huge markup, cus I really care, no, really, I actually do care about ur history.........

You know this whole Ukraine thing.... IT's kind of like a really big example of American style politics.
See, just like the USofA, you have only two factions concerning the matter. Russia and the Western Powers. Which is just like our Democrats and Republican political parties.
And just like these political parties, these factions are headed by criminals, perverts and other assorted scumbags.
Yeah I know. EVERY country is led by scumbags...If you don't think so, then consider their propaganda department a success.
And the last sad comparison?
I invented the term "vote drone" to describe mindless masses that clamor to one party or the other without actually knowing the true agenda of that party. They parrot what the party pundits put out without actually thinking about what they are saying or what they support. They rally around lies and half-truths that the parties/factions routinely sling out and accept it as the Holy Gospel.
It's the same thing here with Ukraine.

Speaking of that term, I've heard certain rightwing AM radio talk show hosts stealing that term to describe the members of the other party of idiots and forgeting to include their own.... but that's America, not Ukraine.

I'm confused, are you all saying that the Russian separatists did not get their equipment and training from Moscow, and that Russia is in no way involved in the current state of affairs in Ukraine? That's quite a ploy.

I just hope this and Islamic state ain't gonna start a world war... I just don't want that.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

William Binney, former Technical Director, World Geopolitical & Military Analysis, NSA; co-founder, SIGINT Automation Research Center (ret.)
David MacMichael, National Intelligence Council (ret.)
Ray McGovern, former US Army infantry/intelligence officer & CIA analyst (ret.)
Elizabeth Murray, Deputy National Intelligence Officer for Middle East (ret.)
Todd E. Pierce, MAJ, US Army Judge Advocate (Ret.)
Coleen Rowley, Division Counsel & Special Agent, FBI (ret.)
Ann Wright, Col., US Army (ret.); Foreign Service Officer (resigned)

The above have all been senior US intelligence officers, this is the letter they have sent to Angela Merkel, Chancellor of Germany ahead of the NATO summit later this week.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/ ... merkel-avoid-all-out-ukra

We the undersigned are longtime veterans of U.S. intelligence. We take the unusual step of writing this open letter to you to ensure that you have an opportunity to be briefed on our views prior to the NATO summit on September 4-5.

You need to know, for example, that accusations of a major Russian "invasion" of Ukraine appear not to be supported by reliable intelligence. Rather, the "intelligence" seems to be of the same dubious, politically "fixed" kind used 12 years ago to "justify" the U.S.-led attack on Iraq. We saw no credible evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq then; we see no credible evidence of a Russian invasion now. Twelve years ago, former Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, mindful of the flimsiness of the evidence on Iraqi WMD, refused to join in the attack on Iraq. In our view, you should be appropriately suspicions of charges made by the US State Department and NATO officials alleging a Russian invasion of Ukraine.

President Barack Obama tried yesterday to cool the rhetoric of his own senior diplomats and the corporate media, when he publicly described recent activity in the Ukraine, as "a continuation of what’s been taking place for months now … it’s not really a shift."

Obama, however, has only tenuous control over the policymakers in his administration – who, sadly, lack much sense of history, know little of war, and substitute anti-Russian invective for a policy. One year ago, hawkish State Department officials and their friends in the media very nearly got Mr. Obama to launch a major attack on Syria based, once again, on "intelligence" that was dubious, at best.

Largely because of the growing prominence of, and apparent reliance on, intelligence we believe to be spurious, we think the possibility of hostilities escalating beyond the borders of Ukraine has increased significantly over the past several days. More important, we believe that this likelihood can be avoided, depending on the degree of judicious skepticism you and other European leaders bring to the NATO summit next week.

Hopefully, your advisers have reminded you of NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen’s checkered record for credibility. It appears to us that Rasmussen’s speeches continue to be drafted by Washington. This was abundantly clear on the day before the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq when, as Danish Prime Minister, he told his Parliament: "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. This is not something we just believe. We know."

EDIT: 2/9/2014: 5.56 pm NZ time: And, from the insanity that wants WW part 3..........

Kiev has received threats of nuclear retaliation from Russia through unofficial channels if it continues to fight pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine, the Ukrainian Minister of Defence, Valeriy Heletey, announced on his Facebook page on Monday.
http://www.newsweek.com/russia ... minister-267842?piano_d=1

This info is clearly pulled from his @#$) area, the same as the rest of their (Kiev's) info is. Yes, their getting their asses kicked with their conventional war, yes, there's a NATO summit coming up. What's creating a World Holocaust compaired with bankers making money ??????????

Newsflash: in NZ, we don't care if Europe/the America's (geography lesson for Americans) gets nuked, Not our problem. We will just go on, learning point, this is what happens when people are idiots.....
Smiley face, Money making opportunity.....

So, here's a special deal for people on the forum.........

"Here is the last message from your ($NAME_HERE/RELATIONSHIP)
They have a memorial ($PLACE_HERE)
They payed ($TO_ME_NOW_PLEASE) to be remembered.

We will never forget (TILL_$_RUN_OUT)

My Company is here to support you, please pay $ now before it's too late.........

( Why not, clearly it's only about $.... )

PM me now for this exclusive deal, never to be repeated.....
But wait, there's more......., ("$IF_U_PM_WITHIN_A_LIMITED_TIME")"

Been great talking with you all..........

Quote from Mysho :

I just hope this and Islamic state ain't gonna start a world war... I just don't want that.

So, your hoping that the current Ukraine crisis, created and fueled by the US, and ISIS, trained, funded, and armed by the US, don't create a World War ?

That's both of us, hence my post's as the only way to stop this is through informing EVERYONE whats going on.

Quote from flymike91 :

I'm confused, are you all saying that the Russian separatists did not get their equipment and training from Moscow, and that Russia is in no way involved in the current state of affairs in Ukraine? That's quite a ploy.

An intelligent question, thank you....

The Ukraine has Russian weaponry, has done for years, the whole Warsaw Pact thing. Like Poland etc, etc.

Training ?, No, a large number are Ukraine trained, And their weaponry is seized from stores or captured from Kiev forces. That's actually a large amount as the war is not going as reported in your papers.

It's estimated that between 1000 and 2000 Russians are fighting on the alt side. These are people who have ties with the Ukraine. Officially, and in fact, Russia is not arming or training the alt forces. There's no need to. Yet.....

See my earlier post about T72's, that's the best the Kiev govt can come up with to say Russia is arming the alt forces.

I expect the war to drag on as the IMF, clearly desperate to get a return on this, has just given Kiev enough cash to keep going. That's only after they signed over their gas pipeline and agriculture to the bankers mates......

Let's see what NATO and the EU chooses, let the US create a flustercluck in europe to support their banker controllers, or actually make an intelligent decision involving talks, communication, and a negociated settlement.

Umm, you would still be affected... Especially if it affects the atmosphere.
Also, reports are new zealand spies are actually pulling the strings. Deep cover unnameable source.CUS IT SOUND GOOD BRO

Quote from Racer X NZ :

So, your hoping that the current Ukraine crisis, created and fueled by the US, and ISIS, trained, funded, and armed by the US, don't create a World War ?

That's both of us, hence my post's as the only way to stop this is through informing EVERYONE whats going on.



An intelligent question, thank you....

The Ukraine has Russian weaponry, has done for years, the whole Warsaw Pact thing. Like Poland etc, etc.

Training ?, No, a large number are Ukraine trained, And their weaponry is seized from stores or captured from Kiev forces. That's actually a large amount as the war is not going as reported in your papers.

It's estimated that between 1000 and 2000 Russians are fighting on the alt side. These are people who have ties with the Ukraine. Officially, and in fact, Russia is not arming or training the alt forces. There's no need to. Yet.....

See my earlier post about T72's, that's the best the Kiev govt can come up with to say Russia is arming the alt forces.

I expect the war to drag on as the IMF, clearly desperate to get a return on this, has just given Kiev enough cash to keep going. That's only after they signed over their gas pipeline and agriculture to the bankers mates......

Let's see what NATO and the EU chooses, let the US create a flustercluck in europe to support their banker controllers, or actually make an intelligent decision involving talks, communication, and a negociated settlement.

Ok

Quote from Racer X NZ :

So, your hoping that the current Ukraine crisis, created and fueled by the US, and ISIS, trained, funded, and armed by the US, don't create a World War ?

That's both of us, hence my post's as the only way to stop this is through informing EVERYONE whats going on.

I can't imagine how much you must post on forums where this sort of discussion is taken seriously. I mean, this is a videogame forum really, you're reaching a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of the general public, and I'm not sure how many of that tiny fraction even read your posts, nevermind pay attention to them. Not really "EVERYONE". You're devoting a lot of time, to persuade a handful of people that you're right. Where else do you post?

Quote from flymike91 :

I'm confused, are you all saying that the Russian separatists did not get their equipment and training from Moscow, and that Russia is in no way involved in the current state of affairs in Ukraine? That's quite a ploy.

No, no one is even claiming that the separatists are born or raised in Ukraine (because they are not)

Quote from sinbad :

I can't imagine how much you must post on forums where this sort of discussion is taken seriously. I mean, this is a videogame forum really, you're reaching a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of the general public, and I'm not sure how many of that tiny fraction even read your posts, nevermind pay attention to them. Not really "EVERYONE". You're devoting a lot of time, to persuade a handful of people that you're right. Where else do you post?

Weird.. I can imagine.

It became a discussion, a thread started by somebody, nobody forces anybody to watch it I assume as most are behind a screen and perhaps wheel.


I find it interesting to see that people think to live in a world where peace is the standard, where things never can go wrong for them. And when it happens even then the majority doesnt have the balls to do more research on what really happened. Doing this could prevent following similar situations. Let's take one example which perhaps is most clear, the weapons of mass destruction in iraq. I guess most people do now know its been a complete lie, so there must be a reason why it is important to make sure 'the public' has the 'right' opinion about something, or the 'right' mindset.

The ones with power only have that power because of you, every individual. You pay taxes, you live according their rules, some are even weird enough to obey them. When this wouldn't happen the last aid they have is police/military forces but they are also human so if the common opinion is strong enough.. the men who had power suddenly dont have it anymore. Public opinion controlling is massively important. Which wife with a recently new born child would let her husband go to Iraq if she knew it was to control oil while it can't be justified?

Shame though is, that the majority is a sheep and history has proven this. Who remembers Jim Garrisson? This guy really fought for the truth and had more knowledge about what he did his research on than any other half living human being. In fact he had proof enough which the U.S. courts also admitted, though this final result from court wasnt really presented in the U.S. controlled media, so the general opinion wouldnt change. Probably nobody still know this, but this guy gave up his life for the truth, who really deserved to be a hero? I think its about 50 years later now and even this day hardly anybody is blaming how stupid and naieve they have been...

Thing is.. it takes more courage to stand up in a crowd with a different opinion in a whole bunch of people with a commonly shared opinion. Which is what NZ Racer is doing. The stupidity is, he is the one with info, sources and doing some research etc etc. He is connecting the dots and just like everything as has happened in history of what we now know has been false, cognitive dissonance rules again. Should be quite the opposite in a free thinking society

Quote from sinbad :

I can't imagine how much you must post on forums where this sort of discussion is taken seriously. I mean, this is a videogame forum really, you're reaching a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of the general public, and I'm not sure how many of that tiny fraction even read your posts, nevermind pay attention to them. Not really "EVERYONE". You're devoting a lot of time, to persuade a handful of people that you're right. Where else do you post?

I tend to believe that people on this forum are generally fairly intelligent, and being racers are used to acting independently rather than being herd driven. They are also (generally) capable of reading and making informed decisions.
If you want a real laugh, try this... http://www.reddit.com/r/america
And, if you enjoy sitting back with popcorn and watching the flames....... (But, respect the rules!)
http://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama

And unlike certain celeb's who are daft enough to only have one online personna, perhaps I don't.

This threads currently up around 18500 reads, so clearly at least 40 or 50 people have read it. if they each have 10 friends and talk about this subject in an informed manner, etc, etc, etc.....

If you don't want to read it, don't bother. Your choice..... Why bother getting upset at me if your not interested ? Unless I'm actually getting people to think.............

This probably hasn't made Western Media either, Angela Merkel, six days ago.....

The road to the Minsk summit this past Tuesday began to be paved when German Chancellor Angela Merkel talked to ARD public TV after her brief visit to Kiev on Saturday.

Merkel emphasized, “A solution must be found to the Ukraine crisis that does not hurt Russia.”

She added that "There must be dialogue. There can only be a political solution. There won't be a military solution to this conflict.”

Merkel talked about “decentralization” of Ukraine, a definitive deal on gas prices, Ukraine-Russia trade, and even hinted Ukraine is free to join the Russia-promoted Eurasian Union (the EU would never make a “huge conflict” out of it). Exit sanctions; enter sound proposals.

She could not have been more explicit ; “We [Germany] want to have good trade relations with Russia as well. We want reasonable relations with Russia. We are depending on one another and there are so many other conflicts in the world where we should work together, so I hope we can make progress”.
http://rt.com/op-edge/183328-minsk-wales-germany-key/

Clearly, unlike the above not reported opinion, there's no place for intelligent thought or dialogue in your (UK/US) media or by your govts. And, you should be good little sheep and do what your told to do by your betters.
If they had a different opinion, the above would be promoted as a sensible solution, but, I'm guessing this is the first you've heard of her statement.

The above was a short message from those people who would like to not have their planet destroyed for the sake of small green pieces of paper.

"This planet has — or rather had — a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much all of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movement of small green pieces of paper, which was odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy."
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/T ... ker's_Guide_to_the_Galaxy

Quote from Racer X NZ :

I tend to believe that people on this forum are generally fairly intelligent, and being racers are used to acting independently rather than being herd driven. They are also (generally) capable of reading and making informed decisions.
If you want a real laugh, try this... http://www.reddit.com/r/america
And, if you enjoy sitting back with popcorn and watching the flames....... (But, respect the rules!)
http://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama

And unlike certain celeb's who are daft enough to only have one online personna, perhaps I don't.

This threads currently up around 18500 reads, so clearly at least 40 or 50 people have read it. if they each have 10 friends and talk about this subject in an informed manner, etc, etc, etc.....

If you don't want to read it, don't bother. Your choice..... Why bother getting upset at me if your not interested ? Unless I'm actually getting people to think.............

This probably hasn't made Western Media either, Angela Merkel, six days ago.....

The road to the Minsk summit this past Tuesday began to be paved when German Chancellor Angela Merkel talked to ARD public TV after her brief visit to Kiev on Saturday.

Merkel emphasized, “A solution must be found to the Ukraine crisis that does not hurt Russia.”

She added that "There must be dialogue. There can only be a political solution. There won't be a military solution to this conflict.”

Merkel talked about “decentralization” of Ukraine, a definitive deal on gas prices, Ukraine-Russia trade, and even hinted Ukraine is free to join the Russia-promoted Eurasian Union (the EU would never make a “huge conflict” out of it). Exit sanctions; enter sound proposals.

She could not have been more explicit ; “We [Germany] want to have good trade relations with Russia as well. We want reasonable relations with Russia. We are depending on one another and there are so many other conflicts in the world where we should work together, so I hope we can make progress”.
http://rt.com/op-edge/183328-minsk-wales-germany-key/

Clearly, unlike the above not reported opinion, there's no place for intelligent thought or dialogue in your (UK/US) media or by your govts. And, you should be good little sheep and do what your told to do by your betters.
If they had a different opinion, the above would be promoted as a sensible solution, but, I'm guessing this is the first you've heard of her statement.

The above was a short message from those people who would like to not have their planet destroyed for the sake of small green pieces of paper.

"This planet has — or rather had — a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much all of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movement of small green pieces of paper, which was odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy."
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/T ... ker's_Guide_to_the_Galaxy

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Great post Nilex. Couldn't put it better myself. The Crimea has a long history of being Russian, remember the Crimean War ? 1853-6.

The present Ukraine is simply a map creation, and as I have said previously, the Russians are not prepared to allow the West to carry out another bankers coup in this area.

Try to balance your medias rantings with some other sources to get a balanced view.

Is the US in the position to attack ? I strongly doubt it so if we're lucky we'll only get to listen to sabre rattling until nothing happens.

Just don't expect the Russians to back down.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

White supremacist banners and Confederate flags were draped inside Kiev’s occupied City Hall, and demonstrators have hoisted Nazi SS and white power symbols over a toppled memorial to V.I. Lenin. After Yanukovich fled his palatial estate by helicopter, EuroMaidan protesters destroyed a memorial to Ukrainians who died battling German occupation during World War II. Sieg heil salutes and the Nazi Wolfsangel symbol have become an increasingly common site in Maidan Square, and neo-Nazi forces have established “autonomous zones” in and around Kiev.

An Anarchist group called AntiFascist Union Ukraine attempted to join the Euromaidan demonstrations but found it difficult to avoid threats of violence and imprecations from the gangs of neo-Nazis roving the square. “They called the Anarchists things like Jews, blacks, Communists,” one of its members said. “There weren’t even any Communists, that was just an insult.”
http://www.alternet.org/tea-pa ... backing-neo-nazis-ukraine

And here's who funded this 'peoples revolt'
http://www.blacklistednews.com ... ow/33271/0/38/38/Y/M.html

I'm not a supporter of America, China, or Russia. All I've been pointing out is some of the facts around this, and as I don't particualy want to see the world doing the big mushroom cloud thing, that gives me the right to have an opinion and comment.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

I agree that Russia certainly is a superpower, and behaves accordingly. As are America and China.

This is all part of a game, and this game has nothing to do with freedom. You know about Russia, Ask the people of any nation that has experienced American 'freedom' how they feel about it.
Ask Tibetians how they feel about Chinese 'freedom'.

So, what's this game actually about ?
http://www.businessweek.com/ar ... utin-wont-give-up-ukraine
Actually try reading this, it's a clear rational analysis.

For the financial reason, read this. The bankers have !
http://investmentwatchblog.com ... ne-a-deep-state-analysis/

For historical reasons, try this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T ... raphical_Pivot_of_History

You might note that none of this has to do with 'freedom', the reason for that is no superpower gives a rats-arse about anything other than the game.

And the game is paid for by the bankers, FYI, they usually bankroll both sides to ensure they are the winners........

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Please read my post above for my point of view, this one is just colour* ( US readers will get this meaning..... )

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014 ... iev-street-fighting-unit/
Why is this ?, and 'retired' is a great quote to use, think of Mission Impossible. "As always, should any member of your team be caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow all knowledge of your actions. "

So, why are they working with neo-nazi's ? Um, WW part 2 ?, holocaust ?, etc, etc. I'd have thought that no IDF 'ex' member would ever work with people with these views.

These were the views 3 days ago, Israeli paper FYI......
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish- ... eatures/.premium-1.576587
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish- ... ewish-world-news/1.575732

But now, suddenly we get this......
http://xaameriki.wordpress.com ... ewry-mysteriously-silent/

Remember this is just colour for what's going on, read my earlier post for the fact's and reasons.
It's just interesting watching how the game's being played.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

I know that nobody bothers reading my posts, but if you actually make the effort that will tell you why.

Tl;dr. Oil, bankers, Cold War, corporate game.

FYI, Freedom, Yeah Right !

If you don't understand the history of the region, have a new experience and do your own research and that will really help to explain what's going on. People think RT is biased, try the US media for brain dead commentry. Without any bias to either side, do learn about the last 500 plus years of regional history.

Oh, been told to add this..... Crazy Conspiracy Theorist, Put On Your Ignore List..............

The NSA will now tell you what you will believe.................

Crazy theory facts.
Actual facts, most of the Ukraine is Russian, navy has already gone over, most of the army has. That only leaves Kiev, and the US backed Nazi party. Yes, lots of people in Kiev wanted to go to Europe, important point though, most of the rest of the Ukraine is Russian. The coup was engineered by the US/Bankers (cough cough) , the evidence is in my earlier post.
Russia will not back down for historical reasons, please do your own research on this.

My thoughts, I don't expect the US to actually give it's promised support, neither I suspect does Putin. My expected outcome, Kiev splits, ends up owing huge amounts to the bankers, etc, etc. Crimea plus, goes with Russia. Owes nothing to the bankers, has the oil/gas, ports, manufacturing base.

And Kiev, China wants it's 3 billion US back ASAP .................
Check your own sources for this one.
Also, if you doubt the US influence, listen to Neulands leaked phone conversation, it's on Utube, and who did the US want in control, according to this conversation ?

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Thanks Nilex, I hadn't seen this yet but Paul Craig Roberts is a very good source for actual information. For those in both the East and West, this article should be a 'must read'
http://www.globalresearch.ca/w ... the-stage-for-war/5371695
He even point's out some of the information I provided in earlier posts.

And given the latest from Yulia Tymoshenko calling for America to invade it's important for actual facts to make it into the public arena rather than the propoganda that's currently ruling the standard media. As an interesting point, who bankrolled her into power ?

Quote from Racer X NZ :

As a historical note, it's important to remember the following.
On 19 February 1954, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union issued a decree transferring the Crimean Oblast from the RSFSR to the Ukrainian SSR. The transfer of the Crimean Oblast to Ukraine has been described as a "symbolic gesture," marking the 300th anniversary of Ukraine becoming a part of the Russian Empire. Following a referendum on 20 January 1991, the Crimean Oblast was upgraded to that of an Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic on 12 February 1991 by the Supreme Soviet of the Ukrainian SSR.
And it is still an autonomous parliamentary republic within Ukraine.

Here are a couple of articles that may help give those not involved a bit of mainly propoganda free information, thank you the alternative media.
http://rinf.com/alt-news/break ... rance-wilful-malevolence/
http://www.wnd.com/2014/03/ukr ... ssia/#gRwEg8mJ4duRgYxG.99

And this is from Pepe Escobar from Asian Times.
http://www.sott.net/article/27 ... NATOs-wet-dream-in-Crimea

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Thank you, pulls forelock...........

Actually, all my posts have the same level of investigation and knowledge. It's just that generally what I post is too OTT for people to cope with. I'm just pleased that my analysis in this case is confirmed as being accurate. Although, all my posts are in fact made with the best information that I have at the time of posting.

This situation has a huge potential for becoming very ugly, I'm personally relying on the US military to talk sense to the neocons, ie say 'no effing way can we do this' and rein back the idiots who want to turn this into a war.

It's actually their reaction to being stopped in Syria and Iran that, IMHO, has led to this action against Russia.

Just remember, never believe the media, unless you understand their goal. All media is the same, they all produce propaganda, the trick is to realise this and read it with that knowledge. Once you know this, you can get information from what's said, and what's not !

And FYI, NZ was at the tail end of joining the Russian free trade agreement that was offered to the Ukraine, so, despite being at the other side of the world, we were involved in this situation.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Abby Martin makes a point of being a journalist, not a talking head. I think that she'll be fine and RT will support her independence. The point of true journalism is to report the story, not to vomit govt propoganda.

This is a video from Global research, it mainly uses US media as a source to explain the last 10 years of history. Again, it helps to understand what is actually happening in the region, without propoganda.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCAQUs0yPeY#t=267

CSF, have you actually bothered to read any of the information in this thread ?
If not, why not ?.
The conversation here is trying to 'cut the crap, and take a look at the reality'.

This article is by Robert Parry, He's a well established journalist who broke most of the Iran Contra stories in the 1980's for the Associated Press and Newsweek.
http://www.opednews.com/articl ... ons_Putin-140302-200.html
It's another must read, again for all sides to understand the current US position.

Mike, the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, both area's with strong ties to Russia, have the industry. That's the problem the US coup* faces, with only the West, no industry or ports, and already needing 35 Billion US as an IMF bailout leaves it as an economic basket case. Have a read of the earlier posts in the thread to get yourself up to speed on the geopolitical facts.

* This is admitted by the US, see my Global Research video to see this stated by Nuland.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

These are pictures the US/Banking (cough, cough) led media will never show.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/t ... -support-fascists/5370269

"There are No Neo-Nazis in Ukraine. And the Obama Administration does not support Fascists." US quote.......

McCain with the Nazi's


Nuland with the Nazi's


Welcome to US 'freedom'

On a positive note though,
03.51 It appears the so-called deadline for Ukranian forces to surrender in Crimea has passed without major incident.

Economic sanctions will be extremely difficult to impose on Russia and are, for all their symbolism, likely to be counterproductive. For one thing, as is clear to anyone who knows Russia’s commercial landscape, many large and powerful Western companies have invested heavily in this vast, resource-rich country and won’t want their interests harmed.

00.25 The Huffington Post reports that most Americans want the administration to stay out of the Ukraine crisis.
22.28 Responding to Mr Sergeyev's statement, Russian ambassador to the UN Vitaly Churkin said Moscow is permitted to deploy up to 25,000 soldiers in Crimea according to a bilateral treaty. He said the Russian troops were guarding Russian objects in Crimea and preventing "radical actions".
22.10 Ukraine's envoy to the UN, Yuriy Sergeyev, has also said that Russia has deployed around 16,000 troops to Crimea since 24 February.
Addressing Russia he said: "You call it a coup, in the democratic world we call it a revolution of dignity," referring to the unrest in Ukraine that led to President Viktor Yanukovych being forced from power.
21.25 Russian ambassador to the UN Vitaly Churkin said that Ukraine's ousted leader Viktor Yanukovich sent a letter to Russian President Vladimir Putin requesting that he use the Russian military to restore law and order in Ukraine.
"Under the influence of Western countries, there are open acts of terror and violence," Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin quoted the letter from Yanukovich to Putin in an emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new ... 0672417/Ukraine-live.html

There are also reports that the US military has stated that there is no way to take action in the region, what I was hoping they'd say. I'll find a reliable source ASAP for this.

EDIT. Western propaganda, this is what's being said in the main NZ media ATM. Note, This was 5 hours after the above Telegraph article, clearly our 'journalists' find it hard to keep up with facts during working hours. Read the above Telegraph article for the real facts.......

"Russian troops said to be 16,000 strong have tightened their stranglehold on Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula, openly defying the US and the European Union and rattling world capitals and stock markets.Ukraine, meanwhile, accused Russia of piracy for blocking two of the besieged country's warships and ordering them to surrender or be seized.
The US originally estimated that 6,000 Russian troops were dispatched to Crimea, but Ukraine's mission to the United Nations said Monday that 16,000 had been deployed. That stoked fears that the Kremlin might carry out more land grabs in pro-Russian eastern Ukraine.
US Secretary of State John Kerry was headed to Kiev in an expression of support for Ukraine's sovereignty, and the EU threatened a raft of punitive measures as it called an emergency summit for Thursday.
But it was Russia that appeared to be driving the agenda."
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/worl ... d=2&objectid=11213803

Welcome to the suitable Western media opinion, Aren't we good little US drones..........

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Love that last sentence Mike, if I said it there'd be no end of screaming, from you it's just honest.

Why does Russia have to be a threat ?, That actually is a serious question. We had a govt minister signing off on a free trade agreement with Russia, that was also part of the deal offered to the Ukraine. The whole region wants to deal with the west. The problem isn't them, the issue is the games being played by interest groups.
The only solution for the Ukraine now is an IMF 'bailout'. Ask the people of Spain and Cyprus how that is going for the people.
And who is the IMF ? ( I'll let you answer that question )

And, without the resources that the IMF wants to 'sell' to their mates, owing to the fact they're in the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, how well is that going to go ?

The people in the region are ethnic Russians, they speak Russian. They are an independant state within the Ukraine. If they choose in a referendum ( 30 March ) to go with Russia, they should be allowed to.

Do read the earlier posts in the thread, other people go into this in far more detail than I've done here.

Updates for today (5/3 1.30pm NZ time), it looks this fight is now going financial. I'll post a few links below, just remember that these contain propoganda elements. But you can learn a lot from reading between the lines. I suggest these are read with that knowledge.
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/ ... tion-out-of-Ukraine-0850/
http://www.theguardian.com/wor ... harm-city-london-document
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_04/268000581/
And this is definitely a raised middle finger !
http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_ ... Bridge-in-the-works-2157/

And for this one, I'll use Voice of America, a propoganda source supreme, to provide this information. So I can't be accused of bias ! There are many other sources that make this point clearer.
"Chinese news media coverage has been more pointed. In an editorial this week China’s Global Times newspaper stated that “the Ukrainian situation shows us clearly that in the international political arena, principles are decided by power.” In a commentary China’s Xinhua news agency argued that the West’s “biased mediation has polarized Ukraine and only made things worse in the country.”"
http://www.voanews.com/content ... intervention/1863631.html

Whilst this source is Voice of Russia, it is an interview with the former German chancellor Gerhard Schroeder with the radio station Europe-1. Worth a read.
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/ ... sia-wrong-Schroeder-5853/

Quote from Racer X NZ :

It's confirmed in other media and it's a leaked phone call between Estonia foreign minister Ermas Paet and Catherine Aston. I'll post the phone conversation when I'm on a PC.
The snipers that shot at the crowd were hired by the Maidan leaders. They were not Ukraine police.
It has also been confirmed by the Estonian Foreign Ministry.

It had been a rumour for a few days but hadn't been confirmed till now.

part 1 of 55

Quote from Racer X NZ :

And the above above video of the US supported neo nazi's lecturing Rigio about how they will vote was just a difficult fact that should be ignored ?

Even western media is getting up to speed on whats actually happening. A MUST READ from the guardian.
http://www.theguardian.com/com ... xpansion-ukraine-fascists

And, welcome to the new Ukrainiane parliaments concept of democracy. Please remember, the Crimea is a seperate part of the Ukraine controlled by it's own parliament, always has been. The Ukraine govt is an illegal coup with no legitimate mandate. These are all facts.

The Crimea parliament has moved their referendum forward to 16 March, to give the people a choice about their future. For those of you concerned about democracy, you should fully support this. The Crimea is giving the people the right to choose, without US Neo Nazi's producing guns and knives and controlling their choice. I can't wait to listen to your disagreements about this freedom.........

So, here are the 'revolutionary leaders' disagreements with democracy. !

"The new Ukrainian government has declared the referendum illegal and opened a criminal investigation against Crimean Prime Minister Sergei Askyonov."
And....
"Senior EU officials denounced the idea as "completely illegal" while British officials said they would take their cue from the interim Ukrainian government, which deems the referendum anti-constitutional."

And the assets the IMF wants to take are located where exactly ?

"European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said the assistance, to be discussed by European Union leaders at a summit in Brussels on Thursday, would require widespread reforms by the new Ukrainian government and the signing of a deal between Ukraine and the International Monetary Fund."

So, this is a 'peoples revolution?'

Here's a run down on Ukraines new rulers........
http://www.theguardian.com/wor ... raine-olexander-turchynov
Here's a point about their new PM "He has played down his Jewish-Ukrainian origins, possibly because of the prevalence of antisemitism in his party's western Ukraine heartland."

Would the US ever work with Nazi's ?, here's an article from the Guardian in 2004.
http://www.theguardian.com/wor ... sep/25/usa.secondworldwar
"The evidence has also prompted one former US Nazi war crimes prosecutor to argue that (George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush) the late senator's action should have been grounds for prosecution for giving aid and comfort to the enemy."
And this is very conservative.
"But the new documents, many of which were only declassified last year,show that even after America had entered the war and when there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and policies, he worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power."
And that's excluding the info regarding his activities in the 30's and the funding of the Nazi's into power.

This one is completely unsubstanciated, just some info that is supported by other unrelated happenings.

"The question unanswered until now is who deployed the snipers? According to veteran US intelligence sources, the snipers came from an ultra-right-wing military organization known as Ukrainian National Assembly – Ukrainian People’s Self-Defense (UNA-UNSO),” Engdahl writes.
Intelligence sources quoted by Engdahl say UNA-UNSO “is part of a secret NATO ‘Gladio’ organization, and not a Ukraine nationalist group as portrayed in western media.” UNA-UNSO members are NATO mercenaries fighting “dirty wars” in Lithuania, Abkhazia, Khazar, Chechnya, and Kosovo. They were behind the Soviet coup d’etat in the summer 1991."
"Evidence has accumulated demonstrating the Euromaidan movement was artificially created by the architects of color revolution – the State Department, USAID, and the Soros NGOs – and this movement, consisting in large part of sincere yet duped Ukrainians attempting to effectuate political change, was cynically used to install a preferred minion in power, namely Arseniy “Yats” Yatsenyuk, a central banker. Yats is, as the Nuland-Pyatt conversation revealed, the preferred choice of the State Department and, thus, the financial elite.
The Gladio element was introduced when the Euromaidan movement stalled and the coup seemed to be in danger of losing momentum. Past color revolutions have relied on lower levels of violence and, to a large degree, non-violence, but as the so-called Lotus Revolution in Egypt revealed (as did other elements of the Arab Spring), violence is a key and often preferred component of the order of chaos strategy. The so-called Arab Spring, as well as the Maidan coup in Ukraine, have not brought democracy, as claimed, but disorder, ethic and religious strife, and widespread violence and mass murder."

Google Gladio if you want to know about this.

This one is just for the LOLZ.
Which country is this image from ?, when ?, and what were the people in the image doing ?

The worst answer gets to buy me a copy of Goat Simulator, enter at your own risk. All entry's assume a knowledge of the penalty for losing.....
Loser is chosen by me.
No correspondence will be entered into.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Photoshop, or the girl guides are having a dress up day.
Seemed to be one or two familier faces there.

But no neo nazis, at all. I liked the video of these people explaining to the remains of the parliament what they should vote for, and what would happen if they didn't.

I think the English translation is, " Please, take our guns, please take our knives. We are peace loving and see no further need for them"
Close ?

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Excuse the translation, it's c#@!

"The village is situated on the plain Chongar eponymous peninsula. It is south of the Kherson region, right on the border with the Crimea. Chongar windy so that gusts knocked down, there is still snow in some places. At a distance of twenty kilometers along the road are two powerful roadblock. In Sivash, the water closer to the Crimea - Russian flag stands camp of several tents. It dug into the ground BTR make minefield. Inspect the machine carefully: do armed men in army uniform and a blue camouflage uniforms with the word "Militsiya." The camp has even field temple.
Twenty kilometers - like camp Ukrainian troops. Dug APCs sandbagged emplacements, tents under the national flag. Inspection is not so strict - in the trunk do not look. Senior says that most soldiers machines without a shop.
Between checkpoints - two villages: Chongar and Mykolaivka. Residents of several days panic - there are rumors that the local mines exploded dog, and be on the front line, villagers do not want to. In Chongar Wednesday closed school: web locals pathetically talking about the impossibility of "learning under fire APCs." On the track, both the village put on the blue and yellow flag: they decorated a bus stop and a pointer to Nikolayevka. Nevertheless, life goes on, it seems, as usual: men today are busy buying flowers, paying no attention to the military or journalists."


Short answer, "Yes, yes it is"

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Anyone seen this before ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM6gNDoZu2M
Fatherland Party Sergey Pashinsky found with a sniper rifle in his car in mid feb.



Good, but I think you may have missed a few.

Dmytro Yarosh, Right Sector neo-Nazi commander who said “our revival begins with our Maidan,” is now second-in-command of the National Defense and Security Council (covering the military, police, courts and intelligence apparatus).

Andriy Parubiy, co-founder of the fascist Social National Party, which later changed its name to Svoboda. He is the new top commander of the National Defense and Security Council.

Ihor Tenyukh, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda party, now Minister of Defense.

Oleksandr Sych, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda, is one of three Vice Prime Ministers.

Oleg Makhnitsky, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda, now Prosecutor-General (Attorney General), and has immediately set out to indict the leaders of Crimea who do not want to live under the new order in Kiev.

And let's not forget Oleh Tyahnybok who is the leader of Svoboda, of which he was also a co-founder when it was known as the Social National Party. Now he is one of the most powerful figures in the country.

While Tyahnybok sought to moderate Svoboda’s public image beginning with the name change in 2004, a speech he gave the same year showed just how paper-thin that cover was.

Speaking at memorial to a commander of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UIA) that collaborated with the Nazis and massacred tens of thousands of Poles, Jews and communists, he called for Ukrainians to fight the “Muscovite-Jewish mafia” which he claimed were running the country.

Tyahnybok praised the UIA and the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists led by Stepan Bandera, who “fought against the Russians, Germans, Jews and other scum who wanted to take away our Ukrainian state.” (For the terms “Russians” and “Jews,” he substituted extremely derogatory slurs).

In 2005, Tyahnybok signed an open letter to Ukraine leaders denouncing the “criminal activities” of “organized Jewry” who, he claimed, wanted to commit “genocide” against Ukrainian people.

There can be a very fine line between Nationalism and Fascism.

And well done with the image, your correct. It's known as the Bellamy salute. Used in America from 1892 to 22 December 1942.

EDIT: Just come across this, which is sort of confirmed by a Ukrainian Govt source. Who knows. Certainly not a confirmed fact but it will be interesting to get an official denial or confirmation.
http://3rm.info/44198-nochyu-i ... otym-zapasom-ukrainy.html
A source in the Ukrainian government confirmed that the transfer of the gold reserves of Ukraine to the United States was ordered by the acting PM Arseny Yatsenyuk.

Then theres this, http://www.theguardian.com/wor ... illions-yanukovych-russia

Quote from Racer X NZ :

So, under Ukraine law, how legal is the current Junta ?
Are any changes to Ukraine law actually legal if they are made by an illegal Junta ?

And, given the current illegal nature of the present Ukraine govt,

The parliament of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea has sent an official invitation to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) to send a mission to observe the referendum on the region’s future, slated for March 16.

The Supreme Council has handed over the invitation to Switzerland, the country that holds the rotating presidency of the OSCE. Crimean authorities invited observers from both individual OSCE member-countries and the Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights (ODIHR) to come to Crimea.

"I am confident that the parliament of Crimea will make it possible for them to be present at polling stations. This process is underway now and the referendum itself will be as transparent as possible," Crimean Prime Minister Sergey Aksyonov said, as quoted by Itar-Tass.
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-crimea-invites-osce-926/

Quote from Racer X NZ :

I'm noticing a certain level of 'bias' ?

The film of his 'rifle' was made at a Euromaidan checkpoint, filmed by euromaidan. Bit hard for that to be propoganda. Which is probably the reason its been fairly much under the radar. Certainly never reported by Western Media. GOSH, SHOCK HORROR !!!!!!

Remember, I personally have no preconceved view on any side. If it actually is a 'peoples movement' then great. The overwhelming evidence ( US spent 5 billion on this 'peoples revolution') suggests otherwise. The make up of the new 'govt' suggests otherwise. Listen to Nulands conversation about who will be the new Junta, especially, listen to Ashton and Paets conversation in full, Ashton is not surprised about Paets information, I wonder why ?
I certainly don't support the previous Ukraine govt, any more than I support the current junta that has seized power. I do think that you'll learn that 'the peoples choice' is a very long way down the list of priorities of those big states who are playing this game.

The Crimea was 'given' to the Ukraine in 53, surely they have the right to become Russian again.

And the refusal to accept a referendium by the people of the Crimea, is interesting.

Robert McCorquodale, professor of international law and human rights at the University of Nottingham, attempts to parse the legality of the situation, arguing that whether or not a declaration of independence or merging is valid in international law is determined both “by the actions of the state within whose borders the people live; and the responses of the international community.”

By these standards, he argues that while Crimea is well within its rights to hold an independence referendum, Russia had no legal right to intervene on Ukrainian territory given that there was no evidence that Ukraine was oppressing the region by force.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the ... dependence_movements.html

And, it's also interesting that the resources that the World Bank (IMF) wants are mainly in the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.
And who run's the IMF ?
This is an academic answer, lots of reading sorry... http://www.asu.edu/courses/pos ... %20thw%20IMF%20+%20WB.pdf

Short answer, as this isn't touched by the media, read the long answer for a better source.
The World Bank - IMF is owned and controlled by NM Rothschild and 30 to 40 of the wealthiest people in the world.
Before Joe Stiglitz was fired he took a large stack of secret documents out of the World Bank. These secret documents from the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund reveal that the IMF required nations:
1. to sign secret agreements of 111 items
2. in which they agreed to sell off their key assets - water, electric, gas, etc.
3. in which they agreed to take economic steps which are really devastating to the nations involved
4. in which they pay off the politicians billions of dollars to Swiss bank accounts to do this transfer of a countries fixed assets

If they do not agree to these steps they are cut-off from all international borrowing. Today if can't borrow money in the international marketplace, no one can survive, whether you are people or corporations or countries. If that does not work they overthrow the government and plant lies about the former government and/or even rewrite history.
http://www.unitypublishing.com/Government/IMF.htm

The IMF is funded with taxpayer money, yet it operates behind a veil of secrecy. Members of affected communities do not participate in designing loan packages. The IMF works with a select group of central bankers and finance ministers to make polices without input from other government agencies such as health, education and environment departments. The institution has resisted calls for public scrutiny and independent evaluation.

The IMF routinely pushes countries to deregulate financial systems. The removal of regulations that might limit speculation has greatly increased capital investment in developing country financial markets. More than $1.5 trillion crosses borders every day. Most of this capital is invested short-term, putting countries at the whim of financial speculators. The Mexican 1995 peso crisis was partly a result of these IMF policies. When the bubble popped, the IMF and US government stepped in to prop up interest and exchange rates, using taxpayer money to bail out Wall Street bankers.
http://www.globalexchange.org/resources/wbimf/oppose

This is the closest the mainstream media seems to get.

Most emerging economies have no more than a cursory interest in the IMF. Politely, they will send representatives to the organisation's meetings. But they do not see the organisation as theirs, nor even partially theirs. They do not trust it as a political forum within which to negotiate, nor as an institution that will establish and apply rules with an even hand.
http://www.theguardian.com/com ... /08/interestrates.banking

Here's the Wall St journals take on the situation.
Investors think Ukraine has severe liquidity problems, but in the long term its debt would be manageable.

"Based on the little information we have, a maturity extension by a few years would make more sense than a haircut on the price of existing debt," said Angus Halkett, portfolio manager at Stone Harbor Investment Partners, which has $62.3 billion under management in total.

"A rescheduling of the nearer maturities, such as 2014 and 2015, would be sensible for Ukraine. Of course this will anger Russia, as the 2015 bond they bought would have to be included too. But it makes sense. The country is not in a position to pay at the moment," said Viktor Szabo, a portfolio manager at Aberdeen Asset Management, which manages $320 billion.

"We're talking about a country which has suffered multiple stresses lately, but its debt levels are contained. Also, Ukraine is likely back in a bad recession, after all the disruptions of the past few months," he added. Ukraine's debt amounts to around 40% of annual gross domestic product. That ratio is half as high as Germany's.
http://online.wsj.com/news/art ... 4732804579421123474521510

This is actually informative, Global research who try to be factual. Worth a read, only I know most of you won't bother. Then you'll argue with me later about points already made here.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/t ... f-a-global-currency/13239
And if the vision of a global currency outside government control does not set off conspiracy theorists, putting the BIS in charge of it surely will. The BIS has been scandal-ridden ever since it was branded with pro-Nazi leanings in the 1930s. Founded in Basel, Switzerland, in 1930, the BIS has been called “the most exclusive, secretive, and powerful supranational club in the world.” Charles Higham wrote in his book Trading with the Enemy that by the late 1930s, the BIS had assumed an openly pro-Nazi bias, a theme that was expanded on in a BBC Timewatch film titled “Banking with Hitler” broadcast in 1998.2 In 1944, the American government backed a resolution at the Bretton-Woods Conference calling for the liquidation of the BIS, following Czech accusations that it was laundering gold stolen by the Nazis from occupied Europe; but the central bankers succeeded in quietly snuffing out the American resolution.

And

Dr. Quigley was Professor of History at Georgetown University, where he was President Bill Clinton’s mentor. He was also an insider, groomed by the powerful clique he called “the international bankers.” His credibility is heightened by the fact that he actually espoused their goals. He wrote:
“I know of the operations of this network because I have studied it for twenty years and was permitted for two years, in the early 1960′s, to examine its papers and secret records. I have no aversion to it or to most of its aims and have, for much of my life, been close to it and to many of its instruments. . . . [I]n general my chief difference of opinion is that it wishes to remain unknown, and I believe its role in history is significant enough to be known.”

I do believe I made a point earlier about Senator P BUSH being charged with working with the Nazi's ? No problem though, charges were dropped and his son and grandson went on to become US presidents. Hmmmmmmm

Yes, looney conspiracy bankers stuff, by rights I should be agreeing with the Junta now in power in the Ukraine, for all their neo nazi stuff they get close.............

I just find it amusing that they are now supporting all they hate.

Isn't history fun. :google:

And this is an interesting read, who do the Ukraine richlist people back...... ?
(When their not trying to avoid being arrested for their crimes. Move to the West guys......)
http://www.theguardian.com/wor ... re-they-which-side-are-on


tl:dr; f the people, it's all about the money.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Well, without commenting on who exactly was responsible for the clearly reported facts that you state, the Crimea wants an open vote.

Also, that open vote is not in the interest of the bankers.

In their opinion, our illegal junta is all you must support. Any agreement signed by this illegal junta will be binding, suck it up..........

The legal govt of the Crimea has asked to carry out an observed referendum regarding their future. If you support democracy, why disagree with the peoples choice. DOH, Phuq, yes I can be really stupid sometimes ......,

And, an open vote in the Crimea, where the resources are, well, yes that would be a great idea. The US spends 5 billion, pays for a revolution, gets their nazis into power, sells out to the bankers, screws the people. Welcome to the NWO.

Where's the gold gone ?

Who owed gold to Germany ?

Who has only returned 5 tons of German gold ? And, they just stole 35 to 40 tons here, I've already posted info on this, just wait a while for that to reach the media.
Why does Germany want to test the gold the FED has returned, why does the fed need so long to return German gold ?

Please comment on this dude............

Shall we talk about all the other countries invaded by these people ?

Shall we discuss the theft of resources/gold etc etc......

Oh right, no, no that's not something that we talk about............

Quote from Racer X NZ :

In a parlamentry democracy, a vote of no confidence, carried out freely by the parlament is the generally accepted way to deal with a situation of removing a prime minister or president. I am completely unaware of a free vote being carried out in this case.

Having a bunch of neonazi's threaten people till they do what they are told to doesn't really fit my above description.

Oh, did I say neo nazi's ? I realise you don't like that, so, let's take a definition from the EU in 2012, before they decided that they were sweet loving people who would sell the Ukraine people to the bankers.

LOL, I love this bit !

Svoboda was condemned in an official resolution voted and adopted by the European Parliament. The document, titled “European Parliament of 13 December, 2012 on the Situation in Ukraine,” is available online.
In section 8 of the resolution, the EU’s legislative body declares itself “concerned about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda party, which, as a result, is one of the two new parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada,” the Ukrainian parliament.
Stating that “racist, anti-Semitic, and xenophobic views go against the EU’s fundamental values,” the European Parliament “therefore appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Verkhovna Rada not to associate with, endorse, or form coalitions with this party.”

When the imperialist powers embarked on a critical foreign policy operation, however—the installation of a pro-Western regime in Kiev—they easily overcame whatever scruples EU legislators may have had about Svoboda’s racism, anti-Semitism and xenophobia. It fell to a corrupt media, academic and cultural elite to package the resulting collaboration with fascists as a struggle for democracy, misleading the public through a combination of complicit silence and active falsification.
http://rinf.com/alt-news/break ... t-fascist-allies-ukraine/

A legal govt requires free and open elections, not a coup carried out by thugs. If your definition of a freely elected govt is based on a violent coup by a bunch of thugs, then your correct and the current junta in the Ukraine is, by your standards, legitimate. The traditional view of a legitimate government to different to your view however.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

I do agree that your former PM was just as bent as the last 20 years of Ukraine PM's.
But, who's been financing the olegarchs into power ?
For a real laugh, check out the latest on Ю́лія Володи́мирівна Тимоше́нко.
This is a great piece. http://www.theguardian.com/wor ... appointments-new-fairness
"People here respect power, the oligarchs are wealthy, well known and well respected. They are seen as guarantors of stability," says local journalist Denis Tkachenko.

But for those active in Kiev's Euromaidan, or Independence Square, protests, putting businessmen into positions of power may not have been what they dreamed of. "This is the most controversial step of the new government – it is a risky gamble," says Serhiy Leshchenko, deputy chief editor of Ukrainian newspaper Pravda, and an investigative journalist who has spent decades analysing Ukraine's business and political elite.

Remember, I don't support either side.

This article makes an interesting read, and may answer some of your questions.

Russian Nazis, as anti-Putin as Ukrainian Nazis, are divided: some support a “Russian Crimea” whilst others prefer pro-European Kiev.

The junta appointed an oligarch to rule Donbas, Mr Sergey Taruta, but he had difficulty assuming power as the local people did not want him, and with good reason: Taruta had bought the major Polish port of Gdansk and brought it to bankruptcy. It seems he is better at siphoning capital away than in running serious business. Ominously, Mr Taruta brought with him some unidentified, heavily armed security personnel, reportedly guns-for-hire from Blackwater (a.k.a. Academi) fresh from Iraq and Afghanistan. He will need a lot more of them if he wants to take Donbas by force.

In Kharkov, the biggest Eastern city, erstwhile capital of Soviet Ukraine, local people ejected the raiding force of the Right Sector from government offices, but police joined with the oligarchs. While the fake revolution took place in Kiev under the tutelage of US and EC envoys, the real revolution is taking place now, and its future is far from certain.

The Ukraine hasn’t got much of an army, as the oligarchs stole everything ever assigned to the military. The Kiev regime does not rely on its army anyway. Their attempt to draft able-bodied men failed immediately as hardly anybody answered the call. They still intend to squash the revolution. Another three hundred Blackwater mercenaries landed Wednesday in Kiev airport. The Kiev regime applied for NATO help and expressed its readiness to allow US missiles to be stationed in the Ukraine. Missiles in the Ukraine (as now stationed in Poland, also too close for Russian comfort) would probably cross Russia’s red line, just as Russian missiles in Cuba crossed America’s red line in 1962.
http://www.counterpunch.org/20 ... 7/the-ukrainian-pendulum/

And, the OSCE certainly are in the country,

Thursday clashes were, Tsiplakov says initially started by the pro-Maidan protesters who had to show their strength to the OSCE observer mission.
“What they needed was to create a show for the OSCE observers, a show of display that was aimed to show that in this region, everyone supports the local government and the events on Euro-Maidan”
“The authorities pursuing through repressive and provocateur methods,” Tsiplakov says. The people in Donbass region are angry at the Kiev’s government because the authorities there have simply “armed” and offered government positions to ultra-nationalist “fighters”, he says, warning that plans to officially create militarized units out of extreme right fighters “will lead to guerrilla warfare.”

“Right now the tension within society is great,” the activist told RT. “No-one has listened to Donbas people when they were holding peaceful rallies, and when we had People’s Governor Pavel Gubarev, who strictly insisted on a peaceful course of action. He and his like minds were arrested,”
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-protest-donetsk-dead-674/

A chocolate fish to the first person to find the really interesting bit of info in the above post, ten chocolate fish to the first person who manages to associate an earlier posts info with the winning info in this post. With references please, come on, it shouldn't be hard if your paying attention. There are a number of clues in most of the above (this) post, all from different sources though.

part 2 of 55.

Need I continue? Maybe you should realize you need to get a life.

Quick question for Racer X: If there was a news organisation which got weekly briefings from the CIA, had embedded CIA agents in the organisation and the CIA had a degree of editorial control over featured content, would you be happy to use it as a reputable news source?

Quick question for Racer X: Why do you say "The Ukraine"? Or are you just copying and pasting this crap from some Soviet bloc nut job?

WOW, our US members seem to be suddenly getting very @/@) about this topic, it''s taken a long time of posting but BMX feels so threatened he's clearly spent far more time than I could be bothered with to generously provide a review of my posts.
Thanks Dude........

I'm a bit confused about the point he's making but I really appreciate the effort. Must be a bro thing.........

Why do I say the Ukraine ?, well, it all gets a bit confusing. I've taken to saying Kiev when I'm talking about the US/Banker side and alt talking about their opponents.

AMP, sorry but I don't understand your question. The whole area is full of propaganda. All media is full of it but I try to point out fact from propaganda. And there doesn't appear to be a neutral side. I suggest applying the time test, if 4 days later it's clearly lies, then there's your evidence, how many times has Russia invaded, 4 by my count. Now apply the time test........
How many times have they invaded in reality ?

And, why do I bother, because I actually care about my kids future, my future, and my friends future. Selfish, I fully accept as it's all about me but that's how I work.
Do I care about money junkies getting their pound of flesh ?, not at all..........

both russia and america suck