Round 3, Aston Grand Prix

Date: 14 September 2014
Time: Free Practive 17:40 UTC (20 Minutes) Qualifying 18:05 UTC (25 Minutes) Race 18:45 UTC
Race Distance: 29 laps+1 formation lap (2 hour maximum time limit)
Car: Formula V8 (FO8)
Course: Aston Grand Prix (AS5) Track Map
Weather: Cloudy Afternoon
Wind: Low for RACE ONLY

Important Notice

Track Limits

The grasscrete at the following areas shall be considered part of the racing surface, and therefore allowable to have all four wheels on it: Exit of Turn 1, Exit of Turn 8 and the North Straight. At all other points of the circuit, drivers must keep two wheels on the racing surface at all times.

Also, sometime this week I'll be adding a few rules in reaction to some things that need codified following Round 2, regarding what happens if someone leaves the race once ANY car has entered the grid area at the end of the formation lap. Also defining when a car is considered to have "started" a race, and perhaps other things I find when reviewing this last round.

Full details once the new regulations are written.

There's about a dozen places where you can put all four wheels over the white line. Most instances you're still on kerbs or grasscrete and it's kind of the accepted line. There's only one place I would consider enforcing track limits. Turn 6.

This is literally my reaction



Why do we even suddenly need to talk about track limits. It's not like we race any carpark circuits in LFS.

Quote from IsaacPrice :

Why do we even suddenly need to talk about track limits. It's not like we race any carpark circuits in LFS.

Didn't you hear, we're now running to MSA rules on track limits in LFS http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/msa_forms/track_limits.pdf

Quote from IsaacPrice :

Why do we even suddenly need to talk about track limits.

Not enough penalties being given out to fulfill new penalty quota? (now where's the tilt smiley,when you need one? :/ )

I'm glad there are track limits defined. Not that it has stopped people from using the grass to overtake and it seems to have narrowed the racing surface up so much some people can't help but rear end other drivers entering corners.

I guess u didnt mean me?

Quote from Masterboy19660815 :

I guess u didnt mean me?

he is keeping it in general... for now XD

Quote from Bmxtwins :

I'm glad there are track limits defined. Not that it has stopped people from using the grass to overtake and it seems to have narrowed the racing surface up so much some people can't help but rear end other drivers entering corners.

Ray, why would you self-incriminate?

Track limit exceptions have been added to the OP. These won't be really enforced 100% in the normal course of driving, but will apply fully in regards to overtaking.

It's not quite a point of emphasis, and we'll be usually allowing the standard accepted line when we list the exceptions.

The real point of emphasis will be on clean driving. We're hoping that some of the items observed during the first two rounds were just a side effect of the tight circuits. Now that we're getting into the more open circuits, we look to have those drop off dramatically, but we'll start penalizing more for observed incidents. Perhaps we have been light on the public view, but any driver who has been protested or reviewed by the stewards for avoidable contact should realize that "Bump & Run" is tolerable for touring car racing, NOT formula car racing!

More no confirmations than yes confirmations is a reflection of the driving standards IMO. Last round was pathetic.

If you rear end someone I don't see how that is a racing incident unless the driver ahead is extraordinarily off pace. Nice to see warnings handed out but they don't do anything. Grid penalties would send more of a message without much consequence.

I might have said that already, but IMO it is completely wrong not to do anything with lapped cars during safety car period. You should either let lapped cars pass the field, or lapping cars pass the lapped ones during the safety car period.

Absolutely not going to do either. Lapped cars have the option to yield of their own volition; and we already have the right as administration to ask them to move, but that is reserved for later in the race.

The series has operated for its entire life without a wave-around rule or anything of the sort to my immediate recollection; but it's also never really been complained about before.

Duty falls on the lapped cars to obey the blue flags; the lapping cars to make the overtakes cleanly.

I also haven't seen such severe contact that you're alluding to Ray, I think you're speaking of a couple drivers and incidents your team is involved in.

I remind you all of the driver's roles in NDR events:

1: Read, Respect, and Apply the regulations
2: Race cleanly and with respect
3: You must realize that we don't have marshals covering the circuit to report incidents to us! You must realize that that is part of why we take so long to get results done when we feel that driving standards were pathetic, but we end up having to shortcut that review because of time constraints.

We could start coming through every frame of every race from every driver, but we'd need 3 months between rounds.

I'm not going to put words in participants mouths and say that the number of NO's being greater than the number of YES's is down to the driving standards, considering around only a third of entrants have responded so far. And right now it's 11 YES and 13 NO, so that's not really a "statement" yet.

All drivers must remember that we have these discussion threads for a reason, and you are encouraged to post your opinion in them. If you stay silent, we have NO IDEA. We cannot base decisions on driver's attitudes off of a select few of the 73 current names on the entry list.

I think that if I spoke with the other admins we've used lately, and gave them a list of the 5 or 6 names of people I think we could give a lifetime ban from NDR events to just because it's been too long of recurring the same shit, but we won't bother getting proof because it's pointless and everyone knows what they've done anyway, I'm sure we'd be willing and able to give it thought, and just put it under the "Administrative Discretion" clause. But we prefer solid proof, and because our record keeping regarding penalties has been pure shit forever; that's not possible at this time.

So, during the restart and some time further lapped car doesn't have to leave racing line to facilitate lapper's pass, right? Then lapped car has a chance to create a gap and get rid of LFS'es "Blue flag" message...

Am I getting it right?

And I guess that at any time it is disallowed for lapped car to do any defencive moves in front of lapper's car... I read rules but this stuff is not clear for me somehow

Just do like I do - concentrate on your own race,keep normal race line and be aware of situation behind,if lapping car goes for overtake,let by,don't block it. Or sometimes when lapping car is very much faster,find a good spot in track to go off raceline to let by,where you lose the least amount of time. It got me "caution" in 1st round though,but I don't really feel guilty if someone is so royal that he awaits that all minor people will pull off raceline,climbs out of car and bows for the master when he drives by and get's stressed if it doesn't happen and crashes on his own.

Quote from dekojester :

Absolutely not going to do either. Lapped cars have the option to yield of their own volition; and we already have the right as administration to ask them to move, but that is reserved for later in the race.

The series has operated for its entire life without a wave-around rule or anything of the sort to my immediate recollection; but it's also never really been complained about before.

Duty falls on the lapped cars to obey the blue flags; the lapping cars to make the overtakes cleanly.

I also haven't seen such severe contact that you're alluding to Ray, I think you're speaking of a couple drivers and incidents your team is involved in.

I remind you all of the driver's roles in NDR events:

1: Read, Respect, and Apply the regulations
2: Race cleanly and with respect
3: You must realize that we don't have marshals covering the circuit to report incidents to us! You must realize that that is part of why we take so long to get results done when we feel that driving standards were pathetic, but we end up having to shortcut that review because of time constraints.

We could start coming through every frame of every race from every driver, but we'd need 3 months between rounds.

I'm not going to put words in participants mouths and say that the number of NO's being greater than the number of YES's is down to the driving standards, considering around only a third of entrants have responded so far. And right now it's 11 YES and 13 NO, so that's not really a "statement" yet.

All drivers must remember that we have these discussion threads for a reason, and you are encouraged to post your opinion in them. If you stay silent, we have NO IDEA. We cannot base decisions on driver's attitudes off of a select few of the 73 current names on the entry list.

I think that if I spoke with the other admins we've used lately, and gave them a list of the 5 or 6 names of people I think we could give a lifetime ban from NDR events to just because it's been too long of recurring the same shit, but we won't bother getting proof because it's pointless and everyone knows what they've done anyway, I'm sure we'd be willing and able to give it thought, and just put it under the "Administrative Discretion" clause. But we prefer solid proof, and because our record keeping regarding penalties has been pure shit forever; that's not possible at this time.

It's in general. If you spin a car out in any round by rear ending them no matter the severity you are in my eyes at fault. Unless the car in front did something blatantly wrong. The admins have been too lenient with contact in this series since Day 1.

Quote from dekojester :

Track Limits

The grasscrete at the following areas shall be considered part of the racing surface, and therefore allowable to have all four wheels on it: Exit of Turn 1, Exit of Turn 8 and the North Straight. At all other points of the circuit, drivers must keep two wheels on the racing surface at all times.

Ok, this post is presuming that the white lines define racing surface - and if it isn't I don't understand why you need to make an exception anywhere, you aren't going to gain an advantage by driving onto the grass. I can think of 3 places where basically every lap, or almost every lap - this rule has been broken in every single race I've participated in on this track.

Examples: Turn 6 exit, Turn 9 exit, Turn 14 entry. This is based off the NDR trackmap

I have no idea why you are being pedantic about this stuff now when it's not been a problem in any LFS race I can think of before. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you want to be better admins or have more work to do, release the results more than a day or 2 before the next race. Ok you use it in the idea of overtaking, but surely when you are overtaking someone it's even more obvious to use all the road rather than to squeeze people who are on the inside of you. Track limits has nothing to do with why people are crashing into each other

Quote from IsaacPrice :

Quote from dekojester :

Track Limits

The grasscrete at the following areas shall be considered part of the racing surface, and therefore allowable to have all four wheels on it: Exit of Turn 1, Exit of Turn 8 and the North Straight. At all other points of the circuit, drivers must keep two wheels on the racing surface at all times.

Ok, this post is presuming that the white lines define racing surface - and if it isn't I don't understand why you need to make an exception anywhere, you aren't going to gain an advantage by driving onto the grass. I can think of 3 places where basically every lap, or almost every lap - this rule has been broken in every single race I've participated in on this track.

Examples: Turn 6 exit, Turn 9 exit, Turn 14 entry. This is based off the NDR trackmap

I have no idea why you are being pedantic about this stuff now when it's not been a problem in any LFS race I can think of before. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

+1. Sums up my thoughts pretty much. Why the hell would we have track limits now? Just because we have some sort of penalty points, it doesn't mean we need track limits or else we would get some penalty points.

Track limits have ALWAYS been noted in the NDR Sporting Code, it's nothing new. The only new thing is us defining the exceptions we grant at each track. Enforcement is not changing, we're not hunting for track limit violations to garner more penalty points. We don't review the race for track limit violations, we just define now as a result of some violations of track limits in Round 1 and we've decided to make the exceptions perfectly clear to benefit the drivers so they know what they can and can't use. The NDR Sporting Code for the longest time has said between the white lines and the curbing only, and we've never really cared to mention our exceptions. Now we do.

EDIT: Also, I saw it before you edited it out Isaac, but I'll reply anyway because I know it's an issue many think about all the time. I am more than appalled at my inability to get results out in a timely fashion. That is all on me, nothing and no one else to blame but myself. I do things in a complicated way and have no easy way to do it. I make too many preventable errors. All my fault. I'm indeed to blame for the downfall of participation each season of every series because of the length of time getting results out - it obviously leaves a bad taste in participants mouths.

Quote from dekojester :

Track limits have ALWAYS been noted in the NDR Sporting Code, it's nothing new. The only new thing is us defining the exceptions we grant at each track. Enforcement is not changing, we're not hunting for track limit violations to garner more penalty points. We don't review the race for track limit violations, we just define now as a result of some violations of track limits in Round 1 and we've decided to make the exceptions perfectly clear to benefit the drivers so they know what they can and can't use. The NDR Sporting Code for the longest time has said between the white lines and the curbing only, and we've never really cared to mention our exceptions. Now we do.

Yeah, except now you are saying some corners where we have always gone 4 wheels off is no longer allowed in an overtaking context - read the examples I put.

And to be honest if you want my opinion, if your concern is the driving standard in the league then it's likely caused by the wind and the safety cars that then causes affecting whether the tyres are in their working range. Even if you heat the peak temp of the inside of the wheel up to optimal, that doesn't make the core temperature and the outside of the tyre heat up the same way as it would if it was green the whole time and even the best drivers(not just me) were struggling a lot at FE3, the only guy who wasn't struggling was Jarl. It's a fact that the more difficult you make it for the drivers, the less good the driving standards will look. That's what you wanted when you added the wind - to make it more difficult, and that's what you got. I signed up to the league knowing what it is.

And I don't personally care if the results take longer. If I cared enough I would work out the bit that's relevant to me. My point was if you want to give yourself more work to do then that's what you should do, not start nitpicking track limits

I did notice the extremely cold tyres through the FE3 race. The long hold before aborting the first start didn't help. I talked with Provost after the race and we've agreed that completely restarting would have been better in that case. The repeat SCs also didn't help. I think I personally wouldn't have called SCs for a couple incidents (namely the car sans cluch on the start and 57 in the gravel), but Provost was in command and it was his call - he didn't really make a bad call all day (except when giving you the DT a 2nd time, but that was caught and corrected) - at least no calls out of standard procedures - the discretionary calls can't be faulted really.

If you could just place some cones marking track limits it would be all ok for me.
It's sad that people aren't up to challenges caused by rule changes...

Challenges? The same people will be fast regardless of the track limit rules, don't kid yourself. And adding cones would cause even more crashes which apparently they are being introduced to avoid.

Read again. By saying challenges I mean people drove thousands of laps on this track and they're given the chance to have it mixex up a bit but no we don't want that.
Cones/poles have been there before you even discovered LFS and it was no problem back then. Besides, if they're placed on the outside and you manage to hit it that means you went too wide anyways.