In your car, was there a strong left/right pull on the wheel, or simply a hefty up/down bump?

I've never felt flat spots in LFS either (though I can see they are 'modelled' in F9). If the shaking does occur it's nowhere near the same league as nKP's "throw you, your computer, your other half, your bed and your goldfish through a wall" vibration.

It might be to beef it up a bit somehow, but please not to the extent of nK. I can afford a new wheel now and again but not after every lock up.

only a nudge. not hefty. that depends on the suspension as well i think and the tyre condition/type. the car went straight and kept its course without the slightest hint of control loss. Then again, i drive way below my limits and my car's limits so...

As I expected

I think the conclusion is, that flatspots make themselves present by bumps that you feel through the body (also through the steering wheel, but mostly not as steering forces) and you probably also hear it.

LFS has the following problems:

1. The FF motor in the wheels is by far not strong and fast enough to transmit the short spikes in steering force
2. There is no way to accurately represent a "bump" through the FF wheel other than fudging it as quick left-right force (and we all know that LFS doesn't fudge any FF)
3. There is no "bump" sound generated when the tyres hit something, thus making the impact not noticable at all

If you have severe flatspots, try looking at the dash a bit, and you'll notice how the car shakes. My guess is that the effects seem far too weak because the bump sounds are missing.

your explanation of the situation is mostly correct. i like it.

but i felt distinctive jolts in my hands. the car too, but the wheel ones were distinctive as well.

Yes, I won't deny that. The jolts get lost because of problem #1, and I'm not sure what could be done about that, without breaking the principle of not messing with the generated forces

@AndroidXP:
When calibrating my MOMO Racing Force it does quite a good job of shaking my PC table around with them UFO, crash, ignition effects and such. They're quick and 'forceful', maybe something like that could be used? I see the problem that it may not be possible to generate it as the rest of the FF in LFS, but even if it's a canned effect supporting a smaller generated effect would be nice, I think.

Wow, you should quickly get your flame suit ready.

Canned effects is exactly what we try to prevent - namely messing with the generated forces in any way. ANYTHING that is not generated, ESPECIALLY the predefined forces of the wheel are "teh evil", and I'm pretty sure Scawen will never implement them. NKP does nothing different, it also uses strongly exaggerated (and by that definition, canned) effects for the flatspots.

how are canned effects any less 'real' than 'simulated' effects? Simply having something mathematically generated on the fly, does not equal 'realistic'. I agree that mathematical equations are much more elegant and potentially flexible than coded in effects - but if added effects are all that can make something work, or they make it work just as well but in a less resource hungry manner, then bring it on...

well, if there is no other way to do it, and the 'slightly artificial' effect for the flatspot is giving a realistic and accurate experience, i can not see why it is 'teh evol'.

i'm against anything canned, but if it is impossible to do the effect 100% using the math and physics involved, cheating a little and inserting an effect, while at the same time taking into consideration all variables that are important, is not THAT bad.

considering that BOTH realistic feeling and realistic math is, for some cases, impossible to have, which one would you prefer?

Quote from kaspur :

Although netkar flatspot feedback was good, i hope this type of effect doesnt get into lfs, atleast not as severe as in netkar. Looked like it was trying to demolish my wheel with that effect.

I dont know if you've ever experienced flat spots in a real racing car but when you get a severe one you've think you were running on square wheels!
NetKar was spot on if u ask me.

Only time can tell what will happen. In the end all our hypothetical discussions are worthless as only Scawen can decide what to do.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Wow, you should quickly get your flame suit ready...

I don't wish to see canned effects of any sort there as any other HC simmer, but the point I'm trying to make is that if it isn't possible, in the way that Scawen has coded the level of FF in LFS, to provide a stronger flatspotting effect, instead of leaving it almost unnoticeable, why not use a "canned" effect and modulate it with the values that are involved in the flatspotting FF.

Not at you AndroidXP in particular, I'm left feeling I didn't express my view sufficiently. Hope that makes it clear that I don't want bog-standard canned effects at all..

Quote from nikimere :

I dont know if you've ever experienced flat spots in a real racing car but when you get a severe one you've think you were running on square wheels!
NetKar was spot on if u ask me.

I cannot say that I've ever driven nor raced a real racing car, but do you think that the FF effects were in relation to the general strength of the FF in nKP?

I mean, even my everyday drive needs far more force to turn than my FF wheel does (if replicating the same situation, like a slight bend at 80km/h). Now, if you bump up the FF in LFS to 200%, how does it compare to a real racing car? My guess is that it's still weaker (but that depends on the FF wheel motor, alteast I'd say my MS FF wheel is weaker). The point is, FF wheels can't really create the forces real wheels do (maybe the G25 will be able to? ).

Now, you say the bumps in nKP were realistic. Was the general strength of all other effects realistic? I guess no, probably far too weak. Now, if you'd put up the general strength far enough to be equal to that of a real racing car, would you still consider the flatspot effects realistic?

That's why I'd call the flatspot bumps in nKP as heavily exaggerated, because they are in no relation to the other forces.

i see what your saying. but to be honest in netKar i thought all the FFB was realistic.
I mean if you ran over a kerb you could really feel it, which is more realistic that LFS.
I run my FFB in LFS at 80% and i think thats pretty realistic resistance, if i could run it at 80% and have the FFB strength of NetKar Pro on whatever the default setting is then that would be great. If ya know what i mean....

I'm sure a more 'middle ground' option couldn't be that hard to come up with
it sounds like if LFS had even a third (less?) of NKP's flatspot effects people would be happy enough...

Quote :

Turn your FF strength up, commence some heavy braking, drive in a slight curve, feel the flatspot.

The highest FF setting I can use in any car is 40%, in most I use 25%. Any more than that and the wheel is stronger than me and I tire too quickly.

I do not feel flatspots at this FF level.

Pff, you need to try my rally stage with 200%. There are so many details you miss out on low FF settings

I'm not convinced LFS simulates flatspots properly, it simulates hotspots on the tires but isn't the tire wear measured over the whole tire? IRL flatspots can be easilly as bad as nK, I've seen good slicks down to the metal renforcement from massive lock ups.

Quote from ajp71 :

I'm not convinced LFS simulates flatspots properly, it simulates hotspots on the tires but isn't the tire wear measured over the whole tire?

Definately not... If you're locking up the tires several times on the same point (which is likely if you have a hotspot), you'll notice that the tire is thinner on that point... You can have a good reserve of tread left, but when that point is at 100% wear, the tire is flat. End of story.

Can't explain it better than that...

I myself felt flatspots a few times... It is very subtle indeed, I would like to turn that up a bit to make it more noticeable...

Quote from ajp71 :

I'm not convinced LFS simulates flatspots properly, it simulates hotspots on the tires but isn't the tire wear measured over the whole tire? IRL flatspots can be easilly as bad as nK, I've seen good slicks down to the metal renforcement from massive lock ups.

Get in the BF1 at Kyoto Ring (be careful, you're brain might fall out as this requires a lot of skill to press one pedal all the way lap after lap after... oh, I fell asleep). Set the brakes to be ridiculously strong.

Get to 200mph or so, and stomp on the brakes and lock them to a standstill. Then move forwards a smidgen and look at the contact patch - it should be thinner over one segment (1/16th of the circumference). This may be repeatable - I'm not sure if the flat spotted area will be the one to lock again as it would in real life, so try 3 or 4 runs and locking up the same way. Your tyre should end up like a twenty pence piece (i.e. not very round for you non-Englisher people).

I can't say I've done this experiment, but I know LFS simulates flat stops, at least in terms of wear. I've yet to feel it in the steering, but so many people can't be wrong. Maybe I'm just too good at not locking up

*runs*

Quote from tristancliffe :

Get in the BF1 at Kyoto Ring (be careful, you're brain might fall out as this requires a lot of skill to press one pedal all the way lap after lap after... oh, I fell asleep). Set the brakes to be ridiculously strong.

Get to 200mph or so, and stomp on the brakes and lock them to a standstill. Then move forwards a smidgen and look at the contact patch - it should be thinner over one segment (1/16th of the circumference). This may be repeatable - I'm not sure if the flat spotted area will be the one to lock again as it would in real life, so try 3 or 4 runs and locking up the same way. Your tyre should end up like a twenty pence piece (i.e. not very round for you non-Englisher people).

I can't say I've done this experiment, but I know LFS simulates flat stops, at least in terms of wear. I've yet to feel it in the steering, but so many people can't be wrong. Maybe I'm just too good at not locking up

*runs*

hmmm, might give this a try...

This is what a flatspot looks like on the BF1.

Was my second try btw, I blew up my tyre with the first try.

Quote from Darkone55 :

This is what a flatspot looks like on the BF1.

Was my second try btw, I blew up my tyre with the first try.

so did i, i tried getting to 180, then braking while keeping it floored with all the brakes to the front and you CAN feel it, its a bit like hitting a stone tho

Quote from george_tsiros :

gentlefoot, the 3rd gear's synch has gone because i was very angry (at something completely unrelated to my car) and just downshifted to 3rd from 4th without clutch and without any attempt at matching revs.

doesn't matter italian or not.

quit the stereotyping



What, exactly, do you feel?

Ok..so you intentionally flatspot the crap out of your tires, and intentionally made an insanely poor clutchless shift (clutchless as in just ramming it in, vs. proper clutchless shifting).

No offense, but those poor cars. I wouldn't even let you wash one of my cars unless it was time to junk it anyway. O_O