Quote from Greboth :

Oh ok, so your saying yes the game would be more fragmented but thent he addons would bring new people so would cancel out?

I'm saying that fear of "fragmentation" is nothing more than fear that your preferred combo will not have enough people. In reality, the addition of a new car or track would not only have the possibility of adding new players, but it might also cause LESS "fragmentation" of the community. As an example...lets say that you've got a pool of 20 people. 10 of them like Car X on track Y and 10 of them like Car A on track B. Add in a new car and track and maybe all 20 would like the new combo. Now, you've just UN-fragmented the community!

Quote :

As it stands the 'market' seems to have decided on gtr aston, gtr blackwood, bf1/f08 Oval to name a few. So add new cars or tracks and the market may decide on those being the the chosen combo but if people dont want that then the number of servers becomes very limited.

Do you think the number of servers is limited now? Was the number limited before the new Aston configs came out? Was the number limited in S1? On the other hand, take something like nK Pro - only four tracks and three cars, but virtually NO servers! More choice does not necessarily mean fewer people per server.

Quote :

Thats not how i meant it. Take it to the extremes, say there 1000 tracks and 1000 cars and everyone with different preferences would you ever get a full server? yes the more popular ones would get played but the players would be more spread out than they are now.

This just doesn't happen. People will gravitate toward their favorites and toward other players. You don't want to drive on the track alone, right? Neither does everyone else! If you take a look at LFS right now there are a TON of combos 800+ at last count) , not including an unlimited number of autocross layouts. Despite this, virtually every populated server is running one of about a dozen well known configurations. That means that we're running only about 2% of the track combos at any given time. So, I guess LFS must already be "fragmented". The same thing was true before we got the new Aston layouts and the BF1. The same thing was probably true in S1 (though I wasn't around then so I can't say for certain).

Quote :

Thats just it though, not everyone is going to buy the same addons. Say someone relesed a nascar i wouldnt buy it but you might. Someone could make a gokart id buy and you would for example. This would happen with every addon making people either buy addons they dont want just to play or not play.

I personally think paid add-ons is a bad idea, and said so in my first post in the thread. However; the only way this would negatively impact you is if people that you currently play with abandoned playing with you to try something else. Realistically, if they drive with you now they probably like the same types of cars and tracks as you. So, if they quit racing your favorite combo and move on to something else, perhaps you might get enjoyment by doing the same.

Quote :

This is only my opinion though, im not saying its right. I was simply saying i personally wouldnt buy addons i would leave lfs. Also the addons would be available to the community, so yes it may attract more people but i just think it would fragment the server even more.

Whatwill you do when the S3 alpha/beta comes out? Will you buy it? If so, what's the difference between buying a large upgrade later or smaller, incremental upgrades now? If you don't plan to buy S3, what will you do when everyone else does and you're left with S2? This is the same scenario you'd see if there were add-ons available. This is the same scenario that every game goes through. A sequel inevitably comes out and people buy it and move on. You either go with the crowd or you play alone. It's the same thing here.

I'd pay for addons, if they were things I wanted. (For instance, I wouldn't buy an oval or a stocker, but I would buy a Prototype or a new road course)

Thing here is though, like others have said, coding everything to work right will stall the completion of the game. At this point, I too want more content than anything else for LFS. Specifically, just more fun tracks. Right now, Aston has lost its appeal to me, KY never had much of an appeal, same with South City. Blackwood is my favorite track by far, Westhill and Fern Bay Green are in second. (Tied).

I love fast flowing tracks with some camber and heart-stopping elevation changes. We don't have any track of that sort in LFS right now, and that is what I want the most. After that, I want a modern Prototype (GTP or LMP, doesn't matter). After that, better AI. After that, a touringcar. After that.. well.. I wanna make "Greg Moore Memorial Motorsports Park" for LFS.

We're already paying for the content. It just comes in big chunks, and not in tiny fragments. Just wait for S3. If you're so eager to spend money, I'm sure you can purchase S3 right now.

It wouldn't need to stall the development of LFS. It could be done in the way that someone outside the dev team makes a track (probably a fantasy one) and offers it to the devs. Or a car. Then they make an agreement and Eric (probably start converting it for LFS. Depending on the contract, it's free for all LFS owners or it would require us to pay some additional money to get it on our harddrives.

Of course the devs don't need to make such announcements publicly. If you have made a good track (it doesn't need lots of work) you could offer it for LFS. Probably a 3d model with textures or not.

It would still be lot of work since even a good 3d model isn't necessarily good for LFS model. But I guess that the making of a good 3d-model is the part that takes the longest

(but, still, a 3d-model of a track is quite an accomplishment, if had to make one without knowing that it mey end no-where A car model in the other hand...

Hi. I'm totally against that.... it's bad enough finding ppl to race with as it is now in the N American Times. factor in various add-ons that most ppl won't have all the same of, you won't have a fragmented community, you'd have NO community.
I like the road cars (LX-6, RAC & FZ-50) there are almost never any servers for those types of cars and when there is, it's usually empty. I usually
have to play what's got ppl in it and it's usually a car/track combo I could care less about.
I just don't see where these add-ons will do anything to change that.
If anything, there'll be more empty servers in our time slot and a whole lot of compatability issues

like when new patch comes and there are servers with the new and old one
and it was to be every month or so :mad:

-1

Quote from Gimpster :

The other day I was thinking about LFS and how the car types and tracks are starting to appeal to me less and less as time goes on. I long for a few new cars in new classes or added to existing classes and some new tracks. So I was thinking I would be willing to pay a small fee for regular content updates. A new car or two or a new track environment every few months would be worth it to me for an added fee per update. I see it has having a few benefits with perhaps a few drawbacks.

Positive:
1) Regularly added new content.
2) Additional source of income for the devs.

Negative:
1) The devs need to code a new way to add content that is secure and allows for people with different levels of purchased content to race together. Ideally, all users would have the content but be restricted to using only what they have paid for.
2) More help may be needed to release regular content updates, which is an idea the devs have been reluctant to embrace for reasons of their own, which I can respect.

I know this idea may be very unlikely to ever happen, but I just wanted to toss it out there to get the communities thoughts and feedback and maybe if the devs happen to see theirs as well.

No thanks !

Better 1 car which simulates 100%, than 542 cars, behaving as in the wannabe sims.

I think it is a one time possibility, to develope as a simrace, while the "game" is being developed. When finished (s3 final version) then one can start making special wishes.

I don't think these mini-addon-snippets would do the community good.
But I am willing to use money to encourage new features that I would like. I have demand for specific new features and the offer of new features is low (because there are just 3 developers) so market-rules dictate that I can use money to get my desired features faster or before others get their desired features.
The solution would be a bounty-system. I bid 15€ on, say, preloaded diffs, or the Audi A3, and others do so on their favorite feature/addon. When Scawen, Eric or Victor implement the desired feature they gain the money that was bid.
To a specific degree the devs will still be free to implement what they want and what they think is best for LFS. But greed will make them also implement what we currently want. The result will be a work-in-progress title with maximum current playability (because demanded features are implemented and not sheduled for S3 final).

In theory.

Vain

Quote from Whisper :

If you're so eager to spend money, I'm sure you can purchase S3 right now.

You really can... As far as I understood, you can now pay another £ 12 and get a voucher, which you then can use to fill your account... When S3 is out, you're S3-licensed instantly...

Quote from Whisper :

Just wait for S3.

Im still f***ing waiting for S2! S2 hasnt even gone BETA! So stuff S3!
What it needs is fingers pulling out of certain places! :P


Im all for this small workgroup making sure whats produced is in the best interest of the game, and not the publishers market forecast, im all for making the sim as realistic, accurate and 'fun' as possible, and im all for everything else that goes with it, but it has to be said its about 2 years behind schedule for the official S2 release (im not entirely sure whats missing for them to grant it S2 'final' status, just recall them using this as an excuse why games mag reviewers shouldnt judge it) and while i wouldnt be impressed at having to pay more for them to get a bl**dy move on, i'd do so if additional people were brought on-board to help push things and it allowed for additional content or something.

These days LFS feels no different to the likes of EA n co, granted at least they can often be found in here to answer anything which *needs* answering, but in terms of whats happening... deadly silence.

About 14 months have passed since S2a, very little (if anything) was said, no sign of progress just silence, and then suddenly after 11 months up comes new content, and while this'll be quoted and interpreted as being ungrateful, it wasnt even something planned, it was a sudden afterthought, a once in a lifetime type addition, but where is the progress to S2 final?
I'll gladly take additional content, thats great, but whats happening with the stuff supposedly missing to make S2 final, whats holding it up, whats missing... only 3 people know and as already said... nothing but silence.


btw, for the original point, i'd pay for additional content, but on the provision that it was someone else doing it! I'll be damned if i want it at the expense of seeing some of the stuff we'd like/expect from S3 when its delayed till 2010 just because of adding a couple of tracks and/or cars!
I'd sooner someone capable of doing this was brought in with the sole purpose of helping make something like this possible (making them in co-operation, rather than on there own) rather than stretch the workload even further.

I don't find the suggestiong a good idea because of compatibility issues.
Now paying a little extra to have another (or two) smart person join the development and thus speeding things up would be another thing, in wihch I'd be totally in. But I guess that is very unlikely. Crap

Quote from PaulC2K :

...im all for making the sim as realistic, accurate and 'fun' as possible, and im all for everything else that goes with it, but it has to be said its about 2 years behind schedule for the official S2 release

Says who? I've never seen a release schedule, so I don't see how it could be behind schedule.

Quote :

(im not entirely sure whats missing for them to grant it S2 'final' status, just recall them using this as an excuse why games mag reviewers shouldnt judge it)

Beta means that all the features are in, but that the product may contain bugs. Alpha means that all the features are not in. AI can't pit, can't account for fuel, and can't handle cambered turns. The clutch model isn't finished. The damage model isn't complete. Etc., etc., etc. LFS will be Alpha until all features are complete. Then we'll likely have a short beta phase, since there are about a thousand people "testing" the app every single day. Would you be happier if they called it final, then released a "service pack" in a year to fix the rest? illepall

Quote :

These days LFS feels no different to the likes of EA n co, granted at least they can often be found in here to answer anything which *needs* answering, but in terms of whats happening... deadly silence.

You've got to be friggin' kidding me! We've had 19 test patches in the last month. Every single one was announced here in the forum, and almost every single one added a new feature that we, the users, asked for. How you can compare Scavier to EA just boggles my mind!

Quote :

...and while this'll be quoted and interpreted as being ungrateful...

Yeah, imagine that. You sound pretty damn ungrateful to me.

Quote :

..but where is the progress to S2 final?

See above section about test patches. We've received a LOT of new content recently - for example: a new script system, direct replays of spr/mpr/set/lyt files, sorting of multiplayer hosts, new track selection screen, new custom views, local/UTC clock, etc). When the patch is finally out of test I expect we'll see even more goodies. And we know for sure that there's an incompatible patch in the works that will have even bigger changes.

Sure there's still plenty that could be added (see improvements section), but this game has made a ton of progress in the last year. If you choose not to see that, I don't know what to tell you.

Cue-Ball:
Anything else you'd like to misquote me on or just make incorrect assumptions on?

The EA comments were based on lack of how news on how LFS is progressing, maybe your just a n00b and arent aware that in the early days there were a damn sight more progress reports in a month than there probably has been in the last 12 months! If im talking about a lack of test patches being released 20 times a day then fair enough, valid point, but sadly im not, im talking about proper news on where things are going, who's been doing what recently, just the nice sort of stuff they *used* to do in what i'd refer to as the good old days when there was more to there connection with there community than answering the odd coding based question or posting this weeks test patch.

Just cos LFS doesnt have a concreate schedule, doesnt mean that there werent expected targets, again, maybe your a n00b to LFS i dunno, but there have been times when non-commited dates (ie X years later) have been mentioned, but just because there isnt an concrete released date dont be so naive as to think there not way behind where they expected themselves to be at this stage, and before you go twisting that, im not saying they should rush it, im just saying they're behind schedule.

"Would you be happier if they called it final, then released a "service pack" in a year to fix the rest? illepall"
Again, more assumptions on what im saying, you really should learn to stop doing this, I never said anything asside from, as you kindly quoted, im not aware of exactly what they want adding to make it final, and somehow despite pointing out a few of the unresolved issues you find a way to make a wonderful assumptions on what i want based on the fact that im not aware of what *they* want to add to make it final. Cant you just answer something without making an stupid coment... or are you a retard (i can sense that quote coming already )

Come on Cue-Ball, you can do better than that if you want to be bitchy, tips would include keeping your arguement based on what other people are talking about, its much less effective if your rambling about something completely different, you'd also do well to bare in mind just cos you dont know something, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. your cue-ball, not magic 8 ball, you dont know all the answers sadly.


I'd just settle for them doing what they were supposed to be doing, which i'd assume is exactly what they *are* doing, Im not interested in them going off in tagents unless its one thats required for the sake of the sim.
One thing im not overly impressed with though, which cue-ball points out, about the existing AI issues is that for 'Live for Speed - Online Racing Simulator' its a little disappointing to have time spent on something *most *of us wouldnt be interested in (leave it CB!), and probably wouldnt be bothered if it wasnt there, though i understand at the same time if it wasnt there most people would be asking for it (lifes like that! - look at me!!) and that would be pick on as being a negative aspect (however no SP structure seems to be just fine [assumption] yet most racing games/sims would have more than single race modes).

So it's about progress reports again? Didn't take long for a new one to arise... Maybe you read some threads from february-march this year, Scawen explains somewhere why there is a lack of updates... Either cope with it and develop some patience or rant some more, I don't care...

No its not about progress reports, like PaulC2K said its about progress or the lack there of. I will agree with PaulC2K in that it would be better to have a small group of additional people work in cooperation with the devs to add content then to delay LFS more then it already is. I have watched new games come and go during the course of the development of LFS. Like PaulC2K and the other people who have been here since the begining we have been waiting and waiting and waiting. Cue-Ball, you have been here for a short time, little more then a year, so you really do not have the same concept as some of us do when we talk about how long we have been waiting for improvments in this sim.

Kegetys proved with that it is not that diffacult for a skilled comunity member to build a very polished car in a short time. Granted he is unable to release what he did or even explain how it can be done. It still serves to show that there are people in this community willing to and capable of assisting the devs, who have the respect for them to not detract or alter their vision of what LFS will eventualy become.

LFS has been release in some form or another for over 4 years. It has made great strides to improve and in my opinion is still the best simulation of auto racing on the internet but it content is dated, the car classes we have need more variaty and there are still classes which do not exist. We have but but 6 different track envirnments in addition to some autocross and drag strips and of those six, two have but a single layout.

This thread has gone in a slightly different direction that I intended but that is a good thing as what we are discussing is very relitive and needs to be talked about. I understand the devs have lives of their own and then for too long they put them on the back burner for LFS. I understand that LFS development has slowed for several reasons and respect them all. But in the end what we ahve now is what we had a year ago with the addition of two new circutes, yet another new car class with a single car, and a few minor improvments in physics, functionality, and accesability.

Its time for more. The world is speeding up and LFS is starting to loose some of its lead. I just hope it doesent fall by the roadside as other developers catch up.

Quote from PaulC2K :

Im not interested in them going off in tagents unless its one thats required for the sake of the sim.

Every tangent has been sensible and has provided either new features that have been very well accepted and used, or has fixed niggling problems that racers wanted fixed. Notice there is little "junk" in this sim? Nothing is done on a whim without consideration for the goal. Then there are priorities that must be considered, AI isn't very high on the list because it isn't required for a race simulator.

There is no "behind schedule" situation at all, the process is dynamic and always has been. If it wasn't like it is you would probably be staring down the barrel at just another ho-hum EA clone. LFS is what it is because of the process, and that is a good thing.
I'm sure the Devs have lists of "things to do", but luckily for us they also take the time to implement changes that we believe should be implemented, and you won't get that in a strict deadline environment. What you would end up with (obvious in most other racing software) ultimately is compromise, and mediocrity.

Over the years I have come to accept and respect the process that the Devs employ. There's an old saying that goes: If it aint broken, don't fix it.

Nothing is perfect in this world, but there are degrees of satisfaction that we can choose to accept or not. I choose to accept what I have been given and make the very best of it, knowing that plently more of the good stuff (and sensible development) is headed my way.

Quote from Gimpster :

No its not about progress reports, like PaulC2K said its about progress or the lack there of. I will agree with PaulC2K in that it would be better to have a small group of additional people work in cooperation with the devs to add content then to delay LFS more then it already is. I have watched new games come and go during the course of the development of LFS. Like PaulC2K and the other people who have been here since the begining we have been waiting and waiting and waiting. Cue-Ball, you have been here for a short time, little more then a year, so you really do not have the same concept as some of us do when we talk about how long we have been waiting for improvments in this sim.

Kegetys proved with that it is not that diffacult for a skilled comunity member to build a very polished car in a short time. Granted he is unable to release what he did or even explain how it can be done. It still serves to show that there are people in this community willing to and capable of assisting the devs, who have the respect for them to not detract or alter their vision of what LFS will eventualy become.

LFS has been release in some form or another for over 4 years. It has made great strides to improve and in my opinion is still the best simulation of auto racing on the internet but it content is dated, the car classes we have need more variaty and there are still classes which do not exist. We have but but 6 different track envirnments in addition to some autocross and drag strips and of those six, two have but a single layout.

This thread has gone in a slightly different direction that I intended but that is a good thing as what we are discussing is very relitive and needs to be talked about. I understand the devs have lives of their own and then for too long they put them on the back burner for LFS. I understand that LFS development has slowed for several reasons and respect them all. But in the end what we ahve now is what we had a year ago with the addition of two new circutes, yet another new car class with a single car, and a few minor improvments in physics, functionality, and accesability.

Its time for more. The world is speeding up and LFS is starting to loose some of its lead. I just hope it doesent fall by the roadside as other developers catch up.

Now that you put it in this perspective, i gotta agree with you... to a point.

but I think two things, you can't really "rush" development and expect to have something done as well as what it'd be done if things were allowed to run it's course. (personally I was happy with S-1)
If you add more people to the mix, there's more of a chance you're gonna have problems than if you don't add them... espescially if you consider the amount of creativity vs "simply" coding... you know, too many cooks syndrome...

Also, as far as add ons, most definatly, but one, they should be more like
mods, like as in FREE and two, they'd have to all be able to like adapt to whatever version patch is released at any given time.

and another thing with add-ons... what about legal issues?
For example, say somebody makes a drag racing add-on..they just make cars. and say one of the car looks almost exaclty like a...a I dunno a GTO.
What happens then?

I dunno alot about coding and development, but I been playing for.. a few months at least. I realize in S-1 things were really happening and patches were an almost noticeable effect every time one was released, But as time
passed on, all the rough edges have been trimmed out (at least I think so)
and I imagine getting the finer physics details right, getting the A.I. to half way act right and adding tracks and cars and making sure all that can be done while
only using up a sensible amount of computer resources involves alot of serious number crunching. that's gotta take some time. and since I never saw Eric, Scawen or Victor in any of the races I seen on TV, I imagine there's a whole lot of trial & error and just plain guesses on a lot of this.

oh and one more thing about add-ons.... what if they release some,
but they're stuff you don't like (think Road Cars)?

That all being said, I'd really like to see a flaming trash can option

I would probaly still buy them as it fuels further development and varity is the spice of life.

Gimpster: Thank god someone understands what im saying

Gunn: The tagent comment, that was purely meant in terms of them deciding to do something like this thread is suggesting, if they were to deviate from the original path by spending time building an add-on pack then this could easily slow progress down and put things further behind.

In terms of schedule, im glad they have it as it is instead of just releasing whatever they have at that time and not giving a rats about what they hand out, but whether or not theres a concrete or flexable schedule, surely you can recall many times they've stated roughly (and no more than that) when they see the various stages coming together, and im sure in the earlier days they were thinking each stage would be released yearly (i could be completely wrong on this).
The actual gripe isnt against the schedule being behind though, it would be if they were to do something like this, at the expense of delaying progress in other areas.

At current rate, can anyone see S3 being released (in any form) sooner than 2008 in its current developement shape?
Adding further unplanned work which wasnt a requirement for the good of racing/realism/fun would almost certainly add a good 6-12 months on i'd bet, which was why i earlier said i'd be against something like this unless there was someone brought in in some shape or form to take some of that weight away, causing minimal delays on progress. Whether they worked solo in a Kegety manner (with permission) or if to share the added workload with Eric, that i'd accept/understand because it would be dealing with the negative aspect of doing something like that.

Purchasing additional work, i wouldnt be opposed to that, particularly if it happilly co-existed with current content, i just wouldnt like to see it stretch things any further.

Quote from Captain Slow :

*in yoda style voice* patience, you must learn patience!

But I've already raced so much!

*bump*

Ow! Ben tell him! Tell him I've driven AS North REV in the MRT!

Don't get me wrong, but I believe the payment system is already more than enough, comparing to games sold by editors...
£36 when final version is complete is more than most games on the market.
I'm not complainting, but we (S2 licensed) have already paid £24 for an alpha stage project.

I really love LFS, but I believe such a "payment for content system" would push people away for the game, like myself because my finances just couldn't handle it. We all have priorities.