How it is reported in the UK right now, is that Ukraine is putting up a much stronger resistance than Putin expected. It's not only the army, but millions of people ready to fight. It's not so easy to take over a country, even if you are a stronger force. We see this many times in history.
I'm reserving judgement on him. So much better than total madman Trump. But already failing badly on the environment so you are probably right.
Good luck to the Ukrainian people, and all the other unfortunate people around the world who are caught up in other people's fights.
Putin however made valid point. No one want's missiles and military stuff on their neighbour, only to watch when it may happen.
I do not support NATO at all. I swear if it looks like we are going NATO, it will cause so many conflicts that I am considering to stop it by all means. It is serious death wish. It is now far from joke.
However, I do not support Russia either. I want my country to stay as neutral, as much as it can.
There is so many information about between Ukraine and Russia... I guess there are two non-soft leaders with both making mistakes. I wonder if there lies something even deeper than we see now.
West tries too hard to blame Russia for everything. I want to highlight though that Russia is far from being innocent, but I do not buy all the Western propaganda either. To be honest, I can see through on both cases.
EDIT: Furthermore
Whole war should be stopped immediately, having complete time-out. USA, China, and rest of the Europe, all of them seems to have some sort lack of genuine trust. People have forgot we are just damn humans.
What is the real power?
The attack into Ukraine was huge mistake, while quite understandable, people really forgot what Ukraine has become. The real deep issue is that Ukraine was never sorted it out about what it was, and perhaps too much turned out into West.
Sweden, Finland, Ukraine and few other nations are geopolitical between West and East. Both West and East has their own problems and they know it. Both of them are really just power hungry. What these mentioned nations should really do is do like Switzerland has done so far... stay on Neutral.
While I rather support Ukraine here, I shall never believe that much on West about what they offer. It is never a good solution to live on constant fear when two powers are increasing so high that no room to play with it anymore. Ukraine should have stay neutral. Perhaps EU could have been what Russia would have accepted, but nothing more. ( And probably too late now too )
But then again, Putin's actions compared to West... difference? None....
But, there is now 0.0000068% chance to get total world annihilation, and that number is increasing.... if that's what people want, so be it. I won't cry for it.
EDIT:
But, if we are looking into future, it is also understandable why nations are getting united between into West and East category.
Because who really knows? Some complete mad man, out of control, who can't control the power... it's game over. That's why nuclear arsenal were developed in first place. In here I understand more on West, because in Russia and China, there is only one supreme leader and most likely continues to be like so... who really knows?
And there are always 3rd parties... Terrorists, Other nations... even individual threats... Science has gone far and I can bet if those can get all the tools they need in order to seek of power... Chaos won't deplete anytime soon. This is of course quite low chance... but in terms of principal, it is not THAT low chance as you may assume.
Kreml has clearly told to Finland about stay out of NATO... and they are absolute of it. I agree, we should stay on Neutral. Kreml has no interest of Finland or Sweden, because it would had happened already before... Until someone else comes to into lead and simply thinks "I want you, now!"
Humans... Smart on individual, Stupid as **** on mass...
And this is just small portion of what other problems there are...
EDIT: Just to make clear, this is just yet another war between two or more parties... let's check it out whole world... more and more wars going on. Some are local, some are small, but effects may vary.
EDIT: About those wars... the clear statement about humans is that we are beasts... we slay other species for food, race and compete each other. We are nothing much different compared to other animals... it is evolutional thing of us. We may attempt to be like proper civilization, but we can never deny of what we are in first place. That's what power is.
But I repeat my question again: What is the real power?
EDIT: People forgets that world is simply not yet ready for globalization. It is simply impossible to do it in these circumstances... seems like it is some sort of stupid trend by West. Cultural differences are still so much different. And now as nearly whole world is connected to internet... damn...
EDIT: Russians didn't want this, Ukrainians didn't want this... nobody wanted this, no one except Kreml... ( And perhaps at least in theory, some western propaganda ) therefore I quite understand why my nation is getting pushed into NATO...
...the timing is so wrong... probably critical forever. Sweden, Finland and Ukraine should stay Neutral and become actual Buffer states...Neither west of east can have in hands of them. Period. I guess that's what China is really looking and hoping for!
EDIT 16:30 UTC+2: I happened to see some Russian news about this Ukraine war... completely bullbricks. Perhaps attempt to cause fear and confusion for western nations. ( You can see them e.g. YouTube too )
And of course how come, some individual clowns on battle field doing unacceptable stuff, those aren't shown at any costs.
On russian news they still say nothing about killed, injured and captured soldiers, eventho one of many captured soldies was confirmed by his own dad at TVRain media. Constant lies and spy conspiracies in this country never ends for decades or even more. So fng tired of this bs.
How about Russians getting rid of Putin? I mean removing him from office? I realise a lot of Russians really like him for various reasons but this new invasion and its obvious negative effects on the Russian people and everyone else, must plunge him to a far lower level of popularity. Is there any chance at all of a complete revolt, cease to carry out his commands, lock him up and get someone in charge who hasn't lost their mind? Are the military forces so loyal to him that this is out of the question?
I say this as a supporter of reason and as a person of the world who doesn't want more bloodshed. Nothing to do with supporting "The West". But Putin is losing it. He sounds like a desperate man and it's time for him to go.
The sooner he is removed, the sooner we can start to put things right. There is so much to do, so much change needed in all countries of the world. But blowing things up and killing people isn't getting us any closer.
1) Up until now Russians have been living better than ever, and weren't urged to demand changes.
2) Informational autocracy (A Theory of Informational Autocracy by Guriev & Treisman) keeps itself at power by controlling the media, co-opting the educated elites and de-politicizing common people. They're purposefully drawn to believe that politics is dirty, and attemtps to change a futile.
3) Consequences of this are seen in polls. After major elections roughly 55-60% say they the elections weren't fair, yet in the same poll 60% say they accept the results as legitimate. They do nothing about the elections afterwards.
If someone hopes protests help, it would take millions go to the streets.
Protests in 2011-12 involved less than 200 000, and about the same a year ago. They weren't supported by the elites or bureaucrats. In Ukraine they were. Sociologist Lev Gudkov (his article titled How We Think) proposes that the USSR transformed when the majority of middle-level, middle-age bureaucracy realized they had no way to go in the existing system. It's them who had both experience and means to define how the system works and to change it.
I may sound fatalist, but I'm not. Everyone who got involved in local activism quickly realized why they need real democracy (eg. why we need an elected and independent mayor rather than a state-backed candidate or an appointed bureaucrat). Even when city council got 6 independent deputies among 50, it changed a lot, many questions that were decided among bureaucrats became a matter of public discussion.
I suppose the question the topic should be asking is "What is happening in Russia?", because it doesn't add up. Also, I'd be very suspicious of any new leaders popping up post-putin.
In Russia, all the media are tightly controlled by the government, and the saddest thing is that they are good at brainwashing the older generation of people. They represent everything in such a way that it is necessary "Putin is good, he cannot be replaced, and there is no one who can replace him. And we are surrounded by enemies, the main of which are the United States and NATO countries."
Media that cannot be controlled are called "Foreign agents" who are required to publish a bunch of text before article text or video clip about how bad they are that they receive money from abroad. Although it is impossible to create independent media in Russia in any other way. The military and police sector has been greatly increased in salaries, they receive 3-5 times more than teachers or doctors. For 20 years, a police state has been built, surveillance of everything that is possible, prison terms for reposts in social networks. There is no longer any freedom of speech or freedom of the media.
The best oppositionist against Putin is Boris Nemtsov, who was killed in 2015 near the Kremlin. https://youtu.be/sqfeZcSRSFw subs working.
The investigation failed to identify those who ordered the murder. But everyone knows who he is.
Alexei Navalny also gathered large rallies against Putin and the authorities, made a huge number of exposes about the corruption of officials in Russia, the expose Putin gained more than 120 million views on YouTube https://youtu.be/ipAnwilMncI. Alexei Navalny decided to be a candidate for election as President in 2018.
He was not allowed to participate in the elections.
In 2020, he was poisoned with a chemical weapon. He found out that he was poisoned by the FSB agents and he made a expose about it too, and he was even able to talk to one of the people who was involved to poisoned him, and the poisoner did not understand he was talking to Navalny. there is a video on YouTube with subtitles https://youtu.be/ibqiet6Bg38. The events were so fantastic that you could make a Hollywood movie about it, the plot of which would be hard to believe. After poisoning and treatment in Germany, Navalny returned to Russia and was imprisoned on charges that were declared falsified by the European Court of Human Rights
Also, only "right" candidates are allowed in the elections to the State Duma (Federal Assembly of Russia). Candidates with anti-Putin views are not allowed. Especially in presidential elections. All other oppositionists have either been killed, left the country, or are no longer involved in politics.
Putin for 20 years of power has built a very loyal people around him. Which is allowed to steal money from the state budget. It is difficult to imagine a palace coup of his people.
Any rally is severely suppressed, for example, every day thousands of random people are detained by the police at rallies after the Ukrainian war. At past rallies, some who took some action against the police, just any even non-violent actions in the direction of the policeman (resisted arrest, threw an empty plastic cup, raised the visor of a helmet) were sent to prison from 1 to 5 years for this. Many are intimidated, and those who are not intimidated support the Putin regime. The rest go to rallies. that is why it is rather difficult to hope for millions of people on rallies right now.
The situation is extremely difficult. Putin firmly holds on to power and he did everything for 20 years so as not to lose this power. for a change of power not for natural reasons, only the Kennady scenario remained. But FSB surveillance on this matter is also well developed here. Although it is not a fact that after the change of ruler, the country's policy will change. Unfortunately, I don't see anything that can be done now
Its just funny that you accuse Ukraine of the exact same things as Putin, while everyone outside of Russia(and many within) know that Putin's accusations are lies and are spread by the state run media channels to make it seem like the WAR is justified in the eyes of the Russian People
@Aleksandr_124rus
You seem like a really decent guy. Massive respect
Your infatuation with Trump is pretty entertaining. Although he has the speech skills of a 5 year old, his economy was strong and stable. He would have helped deter any of this from happening had he been in a second term. I would recommend to sway around the brain washed media you are watching and find some solid information to base opinions from.
All right, we have plenty of troubles in Western countries, ongoing as we continue to burn far too much fossil fuel and release vastly more pollution than the earth, sea or sky can absorb. Leaders who seriously do something about this will deserve respect. We haven't see any such leaders yet in major countries.
But let's not talk about Western leaders now. Let's stay on topic with the immediate problem because war doesn't help create a stable world in which we can possibly work towards a sustainable future. On the contrary, it creates death, destruction, pollution and misery.
Haha, exactly! Let's not talk about our peace-loving Western leaders who are bombing the shit out of countries like Syria and Somalia. War doesn't help create a stable world but somehow these wars are an exception, right? Of course. No, let's not focus on these wars. Let's focus on that war that is happening way too close to us to be ignored. That war about which the media is so desperate to convince the public it was started by the Russian invasion only a few days ago. The same media that were initially soooo sure that if we just get the vaccine we won't be able to get and spread the virus and everything will be beautiful again. How can anyone still believe anything these useful idiots are saying is beyond me. But never mind, sooner or later reality will slap us so hard that we will finally, once and for all realize that ignorance isn't as blissful as our egos would like it to be.
Sure talk about the other problems, but not in this thread, which is about an invasion into Ukraine. My post was in response to someone criticising me for holding a negative opinion about Donald Trump. As if to have noticed that Donald Trump is a total idiot is controversial in some way.
If you think I have a high opinion about western leaders, then you know almost nothing about me, and you have created a version of me that is entirely fictional, in your own mind.
People have been talking properly here about the conflict in Ukraine, and I don't think it's a very good idea to start discussing every other conflict or political leader here on this thread.
I am talking about the conflict in Ukraine, you are just not paying attention. Ukraine doesn't exist is some vacuum that is disconnected from the rest of the world. But that's really hard to explain to black and white minded people.
OK, bit odd that you think you know me, although the version you 'know' is nothing like the real me. Guess it's based on some kind of stereotype or collection of bits of other people.
My only real point in this thread is that attacking a country and killing people isn't a very good idea. Putin's actions are harming everyone, including, very severely and sadly, Russian soldiers.
In no way does this suggest that other people killing each other in other places, or illegal wars started by atrocious Western war mongers, is perfectly OK.
No, it really doesn't. A few thousand years ago most people believed the Earth was flat, did it point towards them being right? Anyway, I don't really understand what does that have to do with anything I said.
Only naive, black and white minded people believe that somehow removing an individual from office is gonna solve anything. Putin, Bush, whoever,.. These people didn't fall on Earth from a tree, we as a society created them. These people and their wars are not the problem, those are only symptoms of a much bigger problem. That problem is ignorance. But sure, go ahead and continue with your naive attempt to put a bandage on a symptom, sorry for interrupting, I'll shut up now
Dude there's no point. In order to make progress in any conversation about Trump, you have to overcome the information deficit of your opposition. It's an insurmountable challenge when they don't know the first thing about Hunter's laptop, or even that Ashley exists, let alone the damning content of her diary.
When being in majority of westerners became an argument? To know what Putin actually says, you'd need to get a full and proper translation, which western media is not able or doesn't want to provide sometimes. To know what Russians think, you should have known Russian and find real people outside of western social media. The real thing is that some people outside of Russia (and in this thread) couldn't care less about the war this war is about to end. Is that war justified in your eyes? Would you wish it to continue?
Nobody said that other wars are good and that American Hegemonic globalism is good. America and Europe have made a huge number of mistakes. And contributed to the appearance of such dictators as Putin and Lukashenko. But I believe that Putin's speech in Munich in 2007 was right in many ways.
When the troops stood on the border, I was pretty sure that this was just a threat and a muscle-flexing in front of the West. But I was wrong. Putin began to act irrationally. This war does not meet the national interests of Russia. This is a war for something else. (resentment, anger, despair) Putin thinks emotionally and not rationally. And now he threat of nuclear weapons. Why? Is it just a threat or is he serious? Now I can't say for sure.
I have been closely following the situation in Ukraine since the Euromaidan in 2013. Above, I have already described all the possible reasons for Putin's actions. All these reasons do not justify the killing of people and the war of conquest that Putin is now doing. But before there were more reasons for war. It made less sense to attack Ukraine now. Now I don't see a good way out of the situation. Even if Putin joins Ukraine to Russia without much sacrifice. Then the inhabitants of Ukraine will hate Russia, as it was during the Soviet era when the inhabitants of the Baltic States hated Russia. It didn't end well then, it won't end well this time either.
This is a war that has no winner. Not Russia or Ukraine will get anything good in any outcome of this war. There will only be a huge economic downturn in both countries. Because of the sanctions and the loss of the military budget in Russia and because of the destruction of infrastructure in Ukraine. Back in the twentieth century, liberal democratic countries learned to negotiate because they began to understand this and that no war is worth the joy of replenishing the budgets of private military companies like Lockhead Martin, Because these and other countries have nuclear weapons, and now wars cannot be allowed among those countries that have them. Because it's a real threat to the whole world and people around the world should be against this war if they think rationally and protect their lives and the lives of their loved ones.
But the most important thing right now is that innocent people are dying, and on both sides. The death of the Ukrainian people is obvious to everyone. But it is not obvious to everyone that in Russia there is mandatory military conscription. If you have reached the age of 18 and you live in Russia or Ukraine, you are obliged to join the Army, no matter what your views on participation in the war. You just go there and hope that while you serve a year there will be no war. And in fact, in the army, they take away phones and all means of communication with the outside world, they tell him that these are ordinary military exercises and they give him an assault rifle and ammunition and send off him for real military operations in Ukraine. That's what's happening. For the most part, not understanding, fearful kids howl on both sides. And this is not Counter-Strike or Arma 2, this is reality.
I'm sure no matter what my beliefs would be. That if it so happened that I began to justify any wars of conquest, then something is wrong with my beliefs. This was influenced by propaganda, improper upbringing or the wrong influence of the people around you.
