I read an article about this a few days ago. This guy was spot on. He stated it was the west's fault that Putin's aggressions came about. He was right. It was because the western nations convinced the Ukraine to give their nukes back to the Russian Federation. All those nonsensical conspiracy theories about this or that when that's the real reason this happened. You think that Putin would take on a nuclear armed country?
I do think these latest developments with Wagner group is pretty interesting. Even if the rumor is false, I still think Prigozhi is gonna have one those oligargh accidents. I don't even think Canada's Trudeau would put up with an embarrassment like that dude.
China... China. I still think they are gonna try to use this for leverage on whoever is running Russia when this is all over. I think that the timing of how it winds down will factor in as well.
I'm sorry, but your presentation of information is a little confused, I don't quite understand what you're trying to say.
What are you talking about? What guy? What conspiracy theory?
After the collapse of the Soviet Union there was the question of the distribution of nuclear weapons. Naturally the rest of the world did not want nuclear weapons to be divided among the 4 countries that had collapsed. It seems obvious to me that the more nuclear powers there are, the more likely it is that something could go wrong in the world.
That's why everybody wanted the newly created Russian Federation to keep the nuclear weapons, so the Budapest Memorandum was signed. The treaty implies not only transfer of nuclear weapons to Russia but also non-development of new nuclear weapons. In response, the U.S., Britain and Russia undertook obligations to respect the independence, sovereignty and existing borders of Ukraine and to refrain from threats or use of force and economic pressure, and in case of any threats to Ukraine using nuclear weapons - to demand immediate action from the UN Security Council.
In fact this very part was violated by Russia first in 2014 and then in 2022, which means that technically Ukraine can develop nuclear weapons as Zelensky stated just before the full-scale invasion in 2022, And this very quote by Zelensky was used by Putin as one of the Casus belli for the invasion of Ukraine
This is not a conspiracy theory, these are facts.
Again. What latest developments with Wagner group?
Try to understand please, we are in a daily stream of news about the DNR-LNR, Bakhmut, Wagner, Prigozhin, Shaigu, Solovyov and his gulagunet, Strelkov-Girken and recently here's Prigozhin having a new skirmish with Gen. Sobolev, or new attacks in Ukraine, and Russian soldiers fleeing, and there are attacks even on Russia. And Prigozhin is trying to make a point about every single one of these things. And at the same time you pull out any one news item about Prigozhin and talk as if you all know what it's about. There the news gets so passionate, it's worse than a Spanish soap opera. There are literally a bunch of news items on Prigozhin and Wagner every day. At least tell us the point more or less to understand what you are talking about.
On China it could be, China is constantly trying to turn events to its advantage, which is understandable. But speaking of the future we start to put a crystal ball on the table, I would prefer not to do that.
Since u r actually a cracked game main admin for like 8-9 years(afaik), the question of mine is that experience made u feel urself more like Zelensky or Putin?
I am talking about Lislon servers which were opposite to LFSPereulok back in the days.
If it was a pm message what would you say? while thinking about the answer,because this is a topic about Russians(kinda)we'll see more pootins propaganda.
"What are you talking about? What guy? What conspiracy theory?" The guy I was talking about is Prigozhin, The notorious Wagner Whiner. Conspiracy theory? No. I meant THEORIES. You don't have a bunch of them over there? Isn't that part of the planet where half of the conspiracy theories originate? Oh well we have all kinds over here. You debunk one, they just go and flock to another one.
And the rumor I was talking about is the one where Prigozhin offered to give up Russian positions to the Ukraine military. You haven't heard that one? This dude has been bad mouthing the Russian military every other hour. He is more critical than Nelvany is. So yeah, I figure he's gonna get taken out one way or the other.
"China is constantly trying to turn events to its advantage, which is understandable. But speaking of the future we start to put a crystal ball on the table, I would prefer not to do that." I dunno. Better to be prepared.
Uh yeah... About that.... When Putin crashes and burns, it won't just be the Chinese. All of us are gonna want a piece of that pie. Even Ghana and Bolivia! And seeing all the oligarghs will be wanting their boats and their money back, they'll be more than happy to cooperate. But seriously you're gonna have problems with China as well as Iran and maybe Turkey trying to get influence in that region around Armenia
We have conspiracy theories, but I prefer to discuss more concrete things, with simpler and more comprehensive explanations that fit with Occam's razor.
For me, the more understandable explanation seems to be that fighters leave because of poor supplies, on the Russian side of the front it often happens that fighters are left without artillery shells and even without ammunition for automatic rifles. What should soldiers do in this situation when Ukrainians attack them, fight with their hands? There is also a constant shortage of shells for heavy equipment. (which, by the way, was constantly mentioned by Prigozhin) To me this looks like a more reasonable thing for the soldiers to escape than any conspiracy theories.
But okay, I'm willing to consider other options, let's say it's somehow profitable for Prigozhin. The question is how? I don't see why the Prigozhin would do that cuz I don't see how he can benefit from it. Because he himself suffers from fleeing soldiers.
This may or may not be true. We cannot predict what will happen in the future.
I understand that Russia is the country with the largest territory and the largest common land border in the world. And as such, China should not be trusted in the long term, but some short-term cooperation could be beneficial. I would like to say that the Kremlin are not fools and also understand this, but given what happened in February last year, I think I will refrain from such an assessment.
I was born in Russia, Russian-speaking, citizen of Lithuania, living and working in the UK and US.
I lived in Russia in my childhood and then few years during studies in university.
I heard the term of "civilized world" only in Eastern Europe/Russia, exceptionally in context of "We, former ex-Warsaw bloc joined NATO and EU, the civilised countries and thus also became civilised and you, the USSR are barbarians"
I read PISA Adult Skills Survey which is not simply cognitive abilities measurement https://www.oecd.org/skills/piaac/The_Survey%20_of_Adult_Skills_Reader%27s_companion_Second_Edition.pdf https://webfs.oecd.org/piaac/puf-data/
, but also how fit are the nations for contemporary world (how debatable is this?).
And what I found is that Russia scored really well, better than "civilized world" of grand nations such as Germany, France, UK, US, Canada, NZ.
There were no special tests for Ukraine, however there were many Ukraine-born individuals living in other countries where PISA test was held, predominantly in Central and Western Europe. And, unsurprisingly, the Ukrainians showed significantly worse result. Even if we compare them with Russians living in same countries.
If we look at the stats of World Bank, the Ukraine is/was the only country of Warsaw bloc which has not exceeded its Soviet level. Isn't it because of their greedy rulers? Why Russians aren't so poor and ignorant because of their greedy ruler?
Ukraine warmly accepted many far-rights from Russia (think of Azov, Kraken and other bastards) and gave them control of the country by embedding them into armed forces and their leaders into government bodies. Ukraine in general welcomed Nazism.
In every single country of former USSR, except Estonia, the Russians show better cognitive skills comparing to natives.
Almost all family members of my grandparents were killed by Lithuanians in early 40s (Holocaust in Lithuania), which is now considered by lithuanian history as "fight for freedom". And Lithuanian nowadays leadership consists of direct descendants of those who signed orders to kill my grandparents.
I'm sorry, but your comment seems kind of biased, and it looks like the last paragraph is the most important for you, from which you build further reasoning, in search of some surveys and statistics.
I don't quite understand your thesis. You give a lot of explanations, but what these explanations lead to is not clear to me. For example, you showed the PISA Adult Skills Survey, оkay, and what are you trying to say by that?
Why not stop using Discord and other communications? There are alternatives in Russian Internet.
Living in the UK/US, I heard [in person] of "**** russians" only from underperformers from exSoviet bloc.
Ukraine is largest underperformer by any means. Including education and mental health.
It is very unlikely that complex theories, laws and policies can be understood by those who fail doing basic math operations. As result, Ukraine adopted nazism, which calls for basic instincts.
ExSoviet bloc are all underperformers (except Estonia) in logical thinking. Provided, Russia is baseline. So, they're more prone to primal rage and misunderstanding.
I'm not going to change somehow for stupid people.
A decrease in the average does not mean that a particular person "fail doing basic math operations" and therefore he adheres to certain ideological positions. A does not imply B. If we are talking about logic, I advise you to study the material conditional.
Even if we assume that this is true (about fail doing basic math operations), what is the connection between Nazism and the inability to do math? You want to say in Germany all the Nazis did not know how to use mathematics? This is obviously not the case, and from an engineering point of view, Germany at the time of the outbreak of World War II bypassed most countries. And engineering and mathematics are connected.
You apply an ideological title to an whole country...not to an individual, but to an entire country, when Ukraine is in fact another ideological entity. Are we talking about the same Nazis? National Socialism has only happened once in history, namely in Germany in the 30's and 40's.
Sounds like a propaganda thesis that makes a mountain out of a molehill. What you nean by "Ukraine adopted nazism"? Ukraine now National Socialist dictatorship? Ukraine have far-right totalitarian political ideology? Are Jews there being killed on the basis of ethnicity?
What do you mean exactly?
I don't want this thread to turn into a Solovyov or Kisilov show from Россия 24, they usually say that kinda of nonsense there. Let's not speak in terms of propaganda, Let's talk in the language of facts. And if you express some kind of categorical thesis, then will follow it with categorical argumentation.
From the outside it looks like a man who has heard enough propaganda and goes to tell everyone how Ukrainian society works.
Propaganda match with propaganda. If you had your own original thoughts on the subject, it probably wasn't propaganda. Moreover, I did not state anything unequivocally just in case you have your own thoughts on the subject, which is what I wanted to hear. But when im ask you for an explanation that you don't want to answer. What am I left to think about? The simplest explanation is the most effective.
The take you gave is literally from Russian propaganda, which is repeated there daily basis. And you didn't give any reasoning for it. No facts, just big headlines.
And again no answer again, every time, it's so funny
Hey Z people who support the war, do you have a single fact that "Ukraine has adopted nazism"?
I'm asking any of you, I'm asking for at least one fact. Don't you have any?
You could at least name someone from Azov for the sake of decorum, but you don't even do that... Bandera in Ukraine today in the mass consciousness is just a fighter for independence. People who support him deny the crimes he committed. That doesn't make them Nazis.
Yes in Ukraine after 14 and especially after 24 February last year, the cult of nationalism is cultivated. But why did it happen? Do you understand the cause and effect relationship? And why is that a bad thing? It can be bad, I don't deny it, but why, can you explain?
Israel exists as a National state. So? Why is that a bad thing? Putin himself, for example, called himself a nationalist. And?
If you are so shy or have nothing to say, then let me start with the facts about Nazism.
Dmitry Utkin admitted to being a Nazi.
Alexei Milchakov openly admitted to being a Nazi, a racist, a sadist and a vivisectionist.
Dmitry Ragozin spoke at Russian marches, against minorities, and raised arm in the Sieg Heil in cheer for Hitler. Which speaks well for his views.
Eugene Rasskazov (Topaz) also openly admits to sympathizing with Nazi ideology and Hitler.
DSRG Russich, an organization that aims to destroy the "khokhlos" (an insulting term for Ukrainians)
And at least part of the leadership of the Wagner PMC has supporters of Nazism, and there are already a lot of investigations into this.
And many others.
But there is one nuance, these are not Ukrainian, but Russian people and organizations. Which were supported by the Russian Ministry of Defense. Which means the Russian state.
Dmitry Rogozin (pic 1-2, second pic he holding a banner with "whites of all countries unite") is a Russian politician and statesman. In 22 he left for the war.
Dmitry Utkin (pic 7, 8) is the commander of the Wagner PMC.
Alexei Milchakov (pic 3, 15, 10, 11 Photo with the head of Crimea Sergey Aksenov) commander of DSRG Rusich.
photo with the head of Crimea Sergey Aksenov
And these people have followers who surely share their views, like Vladislav Krasnolutsky (pic 4)
"Russia for Russians, Voronezh for Krasnolutsky!" is the title of their joint photo in the social network of Vladislav Krasnolutsky, The brothers' social network albums contain many photos with a Third Reich theme, tattoos and T-shirts with swastikas, as well as selfies with their right hand raised in Sieg Heil. Vladislav Krasnolutsky first joined the Russian Wagner PMC and left for Syria in October 2017, where he was killed in Deir ez-Zor province. His brother, Artem Krasnolutsky, joined the Wagner PMC in 2018, after he was convicted of kidnapping and he was prisoned for 11 years in strict regime. He escaped from custody to the Wagner training base in Molkino, and received additional training there. After that, he was sent on a March rotation to staffing the Wagner PMC.
Or like Veselina Cherdantseva, known to television viewers as "Sniper Vasya"
Ksenia Shikalova is true name of Sniper Vasya, who emphasizes that she fights exclusively against fascism in the Donbass, has interesting photos too. (pic 5) Sniper Vasya is everyone's favorite in 2014, worthy of all praise, even to the point of declaring her almost the main squire of Igor Strelkov,According to Mayorov's relatives, Vasya was cold-blooded killed Alexei Mayorov but circumstances that are not entirely clear. It could have been a trivial conflict that escalated into a threat with a real weapon, in which the weapon still went off and Mayorov had to be killed to cover her tracks, or another argument over money, typical of such military conflicts, where Vasya accused Mayorov of stealing, but could not present any facts.
Or like Eugene Rasskazov (Topaz) who is part of Rusich group, openly calls for killing Ukrainians in his Telegram channel and congratulates Hitler on his birthday.
Or Yan Petrovsky (pic 6, 10), nicknamed the Great Slav. One of the closest people to Milchakov in Rusich group.
Yan Petrovsky is aslo known on the Internet for harboring Vyacheslav Datsik (pic 9) from prosecution.
Or such as brothers Konstantin (most likely pic 14 bottom one)
and Boris Voyevodin (pic 13, 14 left one, 17 and its funny not cuz of dress, but cuz it same house with pic 10 of Yan Petrovsky as you can see from the surrounding) from Rusich group. Both are Russian neonazis and are from St. Petersburg.
Kirill Rimkus (pic 12, 16 holding flag in left, 20) is also one of the members of DSRG Rusich, the pictures speak for themselves.
Yulia Kharlamova (pic 18)
Together with the Rusich group Yulia Kharlamova attacked Aidar battalion checkpoints in the village of Metalist, Luhansk region, according to Podrobnosti.ua. With reference to the now deleted but cached pages on social networks, the Ukrainian media reported that Yulia under the nickname Nordika participated in conventions of neo-fascist organizations and is a member of the "Orthodox-Nazi" organization Lamb of the Sky Blue. It is also reported that Kharlamova managed to get married and have a child, and is now closely friends with the "animal man" Alexei Milchakov, who, according to the Ukrainian press, abused the wounded fighters from "Aidar" in the village of Metalist.
And now these people are fighting for Russia and receive support from the Russian state. And this is not all of them, but only the most famous..
And nothing happens to them, no one fights with them in Russia. On the contrary, the state gives them support, financial support, supply support, invites them to state tv channels. And makes heroes out of them.
We can also add the Russian Imperial Movement, founded in 2002 in St. Petersburg by Stanislav Vorobyov, the Russian Imperial Movement has been fighting in the Donbass since April 2014. Who received government contracts on millions of dollars. The ultranationalist and white supremacist organization that advocates for the purity of the white race. Which, after February 24th, head of the movement Denis Gariev created its branch, the "ПартиZан" organization. It is now recruiting people for the war. In April 2020, the U.S. State Department imposed sanctions on the group, as well as Vorobyov and Gariyev.
The group “has provided paramilitary-style training to white supremacists and neo-Nazis in Europe and actively works to rally these types of groups into a common front against their perceived enemies,” the department said in a statement. The movement “has two training facilities in St. Petersburg, which are likely being used for woodland and urban assault, tactical weapons, and hand-to-hand combat training.
A few weeks after Gariyev’s Telegram post, the organization's combat training center in near St. Petersburg, called Partizan, announced the recruitment of volunteers to fight in Ukraine.Gariyev has also created a related organization called Reserve Squad, which, according to the German intelligence report, has received multimillion-dollar orders from the Interior Ministry, the Federal Security Service, and the Federal Protective Service, which is the government agency charged with providing bodyguard protection to top Kremlin officials.Like with Rusich, fighters with the Russian Imperial Legion joined the hostilities in eastern Ukraine in 2014-2015, and according to information provided by the militants, at least six members of the group were killed then.According to German intelligence, Gariyev was wounded in fighting in mid-April, and his deputy, Denis Nekrasov, was killed, possibly near the Kharkiv Oblast city of Izyum.Aleksandr Verkhovsky, a longtime expert on extremist groups in Russia and head of the research center SOVA, said that there were likely far fewer Russian extremist fighters in Ukraine now than there were in the early years of the Donbas war. “Nationalists played a key role in the first phase of the war,” he told Current Time.
And there were other Russian neo-Nazi organizations like: Slavic Union, Cleaners, BORN, Format 18, Restruct, Volkssturm, Lincoln-88, NS/WP Nevograd, Ryno-Skachevsky gang, SPAS, National Socialist Party of Russia, Mad Crowd, White Society 88, Schultz 88, Werewolf Legion...and so forth. Yes, many of these organizations were banned, people were imprisoned, killed, or forced out of the country, but not all of them, many of them in 14 and 22 year and to this day go to combat formations like DSHRG Rusich, PMC Wagner, Russian Imperial Movement and other similar organizations.
There is some madness going on right now.
In these minutes there is an attempted coup d'état from Prigozhine's Troops.
Yesterday Prigozhin declared Shoigu and Gerasimov to be traitors. (earlier he said he approached them and said there was insufficient issue of ammunition for his troops)
Shoigu is Minister of Defence of Russia since 2012
Gerasimov - is a Russian army general serving as the Chief of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces and First Deputy Minister of Defense.
And according to Prigozhin, he moved to Moscow to kill them.
I thought it was some kind of joke or white hot from vodka.
But already now Prigozhin's troops are standing in Rostov and Voronezh..the tg channels publish troops in the cities. From Voronezh to Moscow 500 km on the highway.
This morning Putin made an emergency announcement about the mutiny, he said it was a stab in the back. This is treason and all traitors will be destroyed.
In short, to simplify things in Russia right now an attempted military coup. Prigozhin versus Putin.
"We have fought and are fighting. All of the PMC "Wagner". And no one is going to surrender at the request of the president of the FSB and someone else, because we do not want the country to continue to live in corruption, deceit and bureaucracy."
There is already at least a helicopter shot down of the Troops of the Russian Federation by the troops of Prihozhin.
Some convoys of heavy vehicles have already passed through Voronezh and are on their way to Moscow. (less than 500 km to moscow)
The some of Prihozhin troops are still in Rostov. (About 1k km to moscow)
The authorities are already trying to limit traffic and block roads on the way to Moscow.
Vladimir Zelensky supported Yevgeny Prigozhin in his actions, as well as the battalion of the Ukrainian army Russian Volunteer Corps came out in support of Yevgeny Prigozhin.
RVK head Denis White Rex urged all his comrades-in-arms to take active steps to overthrow the government "I urge all supporters of the RVK to take action! We have a unique chance to determine our own destiny and the destiny of our country!"
Meanwhile, Kadyrov's Akhmat troops are moving toward Rostov. Kadyrov had earlier come out in support of Putin. And he called the actions of Prikhozhin a betrayal.
Private planes of the Russian elite flew out of Moscow toward St. Petersburg.
A truck full of boxes of money was found near Prigozhin's office
According to preliminary data, about 4 billion rubles were found
Prigozhin confirmed the discovery, saying that there were salaries and compensation for the relatives of fallen soldiers.
According to TASS reports, the president's plane was heading for St. Petersburg.
Peskov (Putin's press secretary) denied TASS information that Putin had allegedly flown to St. Petersburg
There was an explosion at an oil depot in Voronezh, and shells were falling in the town of Ozerki in Voronezh region. One of the shells fell right in the parking lot next to people.
There was also a projectile landing, presumably on a military convoy in Voronezh region on the M4 highway.
Wagner PMCs hit Russian Air Force's Ka-52 helicopter with Arrow-10, heat traps take missile away
I grew up during the Cold War. Having Nuke drills in school? Well. I actually got to meet Russians after all that ended. Y'all had a guy named Yeltsin as President then. I thought y'all were some of the craziest M/Fers I ever met. Man these guys partied. But they were decent folks too.
"And I have always believed that collective responsibility is wrong, I have always believed that only the criminal is to blame for the crime. And only he needs to be punished. (and not his whole people, his whole family, etc.) But the West does not think so."
I think it depends on who you ask. Me? It depends on who all's involved and at what level. The Everyday Russian? Nah... You have as much control over Putin's nonsense as I do. These knuckleheads that just blatantly go off on y'all about this are clueless. It's that sort of mindset that causes a lot of these conflicts to begin with. They need to focus on "who the criminal is".
But the economic part.... Yeah that affects the oligarchs, And it limits how much $$$ Putin can raise to arm his war machine. The sad thing is how it also affects the Russian people, mainly your middle class. It also makes me wonder if he'll try to grant concessions to certain countries and regional power people to try and survive.
Eeeh.. i mean yes you right, In our school we had a subject in Basics of Life Safety, and we had lessons on "Ensuring radiation safety of the population" and what to do in case of a nuclear explosion. For example, our teacher in Basics of Life Safety had a favorite joke that if you saw an explosion and a nuclear mushroom, you should lie down and crawl. When asked by students where to crawl to, the teacher would answer to the grave.
But I think that maybe we should discuss more relevant things, for example, there is an attempted military coup in my country right now..just saying.
You Germans and Nazis.... We have the same thing if our ancestors fought for the Confederacy. It pisses me off that these defects will have and still have these statues of confederate generals and what not. They'll give you every sort of excuse to justify having these pieces of garbage without really knowing the history of the origins of the statues to begin with. Could you imagine going to work everyday and driving by a statue of - I dunno - Himmler on a horse. And some toothless meth head telling you how the guy fought for "States' Rights"? Yeah.
I do wanna keep these confederate statues too though. Only I want to change the dedication plaques to read "Here's the scumbag that suckered our ancestors to become cannon fodder so he could own people".
I'm sorry. I was going to, but I read these posts. Yeah. I hope you're doing OK. I knew Prigozhin was gonna be a problem - but wow. And apparently, this coup attempt is poised to have a cascade effect all over the country.
For me personally, this conflict has not yet touched, I live in a city in which battles are not yet expected.
But if we are talking about a change of regime, it will affect me too, and no matter how it ends, I do not see any positive ways out of it.
If Prigozhin wins, who knows what he is capable of, to me he looks even less adequate than Putin. Most likely this will lead to an increase in totalitarianism.
If Putin wins... (what is most likely to happen) with his pedantic approach to his entourage, what Prigozhin is doing to take over the cities is already a defeat for Putin. Putin has known Prigozhin for a long time. It's extremely surprising that Prihodzhin would do such a thing. After Putin wins, he will have many reasons to be paranoid and look for traces of the new instigators of the change of power. It will be another "tightening of the screws" It will be another "tightening of the screws" as we say in Russia, i.e. also increase of totalitarianism.
