We haven't recreated anything.

Reading through this discussion, one could get the impression, that we've just created something, but that's just wrong. The money aspect has always been a part of our gameplay & insim since like 2005, just like on any other cruise server that has been there over the years.
That's almost 20 years! We have stats back to 2007, take a look here, its all public:
https://world.city-driving.co.uk/?page=stats

Just take a look at the time people spent here, that's crazy.

You can see that after so many years, some players simply made a few TC-Euros that they don't need. So they offer it via PayPal. It's not that we (as TC) are selling it on a pay-to-win basis, it's all the private property of the players who rightfully earned it in-game and I believe it's up to them to decide how they wanna use it.

As for the renting: We *are* strictly against it, and if we become aware of any illegal activities, we'd be more than willing to disable those accounts.

Quote from DarkShadow32 :

Thats where i would of been starting checking in the first place.

LFS has terms and conditions that can’t be enforced, there may as well not be any T&C’s if no action will be taken at the core.

By the sounds of it, the devs do not care enough to devote time to solving the issue but instead blame a game server that has kept this simulator alive for as long as it has.

It simply has nothing to do with money trading, enforce the T&C’s or get rid of them.

Maybe the unlock system is just too generous to allow users to activate LFS all the time?

Maybe it needs to be more ruthless and attach IDs to each unlock and automatically deactivate old unlocks from the Master Server at a certain limit (ie 3 unlocks and a new unlock invalidates the oldest from the master server). And then rather than give a new one each week, give a new one every month.

Adds support costs when people have issues and needs to ask for new unlocks, but presents a barrier in people sharing accounts.

Reminds me of tobacco settlement payments lol
Poor victims of Scawen are on the road to monetize their habits by the cost of common sense

Quote from gu3st :

Maybe the unlock system is just too generous to allow users to activate LFS all the time?

Maybe it needs to be more ruthless and attach IDs to each unlock and automatically deactivate old unlocks from the Master Server at a certain limit (ie 3 unlocks and a new unlock invalidates the oldest from the master server). And then rather than give a new one each week, give a new one every month.

Adds support costs when people have issues and needs to ask for new unlocks, but presents a barrier in people sharing accounts.

You must not forget that this unlock mechanism was primarily meant for offline use, which is ok. But your idea is basically what I've described here https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/2081329#post2081329

If there was only one PC designated for online use, and only the owner of the web-password can set this, it would help a lot. Because, if there was a person renting out accounts, he'd either have to reset the assigned PC over and over again (which would cause alot of attention), or give out the web password to the person renting. Which he won't do, as he'd basically give away the entire account.

Quote from chucknorris :

You must not forget that this unlock mechanism was primarily meant for offline use, which is ok. But your idea is basically what I've described here https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/2081329#post2081329

If there was only one PC designated for online use, and only the owner of the web-password can set this, it would help a lot. Because, if there was a person renting out accounts, he'd either have to reset the assigned PC over and over again (which would cause alot of attention), or give out the web password to the person renting. Which he won't do, as he'd basically give away the entire account.

I think what you're talking about is just a simple example because I'm sure there are people out there who can get over this even if they give out their web password or stay connected to a single computer.

Quote from DarkShadow32 :

If i had to authorize my PC on a website just to play a video game, that would discourage me to play that game.
.

How much would buying an S3 account would discourage you?

Quote from DarkShadow32 :

If i had to authorize my PC on a website just to play a video game, that would discourage me to play that game.

It should just be as simple as download a game,make an account, start the game.

You gotta understand alot of people would get scared of the idea of just having to authorize their pc to a website to get access to a game. Alot of people have paranoia of getting their data stealed just by logging in to a website.

Live For Speed doesnt have a big player base, so this idea would most likely not make it any better. I understand for bigger games like WoW, Diablo, ARK, etc.

you seem very worried about the game, yet you're still demo.

At the end of the day... (correct me if I'm wrong)

Even if TC didn't exist or if TC removed the insim cash transaction feature (which would kill the server), we still wouldn't have fixed the issue with people hacking into accounts.

Yes, it wouldn't be feasible to rent accounts anymore, but the underlying issue would still be there. User accounts are still at risk until we figure out how to stop them from getting hacked and rented out. Destroying TC does NOT fix that issue. The people renting the accounts might find another reason to continue renting... For example, not being able to afford to buy a license. Maybe they would rather pay 3eur per month for it. (maybe lfs.net should start renting licenses in those countries? Would be an unusual approach to the problem but safer for the lfs community).

Also - there would be fewer people renting the accounts if the license prices were adjusted for income in countries known for renting these accounts. People choose to rent because they can't afford to buy the licenses.

There is no point in all 9 of us arguing over who is to blame.

Scawen has already admitted the problems are within people who have entered their game password into hacked servers, thus willingly giving up their accounts. Not an ounce of this sits on the most popular, game reviving server on LFS.

Account renting, although against LFS policy, still isn't an actual problem as a whole.

Quote from DarkShadow32 :

If i had to authorize my PC on a website just to play a video game, that would discourage me to play that game.

It should just be as simple as download a game,make an account, start the game.

You gotta understand alot of people would get scared of the idea of just having to authorize their pc to a website to get access to a game. Alot of people have paranoia of getting their data stealed just by logging in to a website.

Live For Speed doesnt have a big player base, so this idea would most likely not make it any better. I understand for bigger games like WoW, Diablo, ARK, etc.

What do you think that you do when you put your GAME password into LFS?

You're authorizing your install to a website.

The website portion would just let you manage active licences which is more than what other DRM offers where it's this black box where occasionally you can't launch your game because it said so.

Quote from Scawen :

Well what you have, by allowing people to buy game credits, is several things.

Just to clarify something as this seems to be getting out of hand.

TC has *never* sold in-game currency (or items) for real money. Various other cruise servers have in the past (maybe still do?), but TC hasn't.

We've always been against it on principle, but there's not really a lot we can do about it - any trading of real money for TC money is happening off-server, between individuals. I'm not sure where you got the idea that TC is doing it ourselves.

Edit:
The only way of generating TC money is by driving, or performing driving-related tasks on our servers.
There are various other transactions/events (such as fines, cars wearing and losing value) that reduces the amount of TC money in the system.
There is no way to pay to generate more TC money than is already in the system "owned" by our users.

Unlike to WKD long ago you cant buy anything from outside with real money.

All money that can be given has to be earned online at the TC servers.

That is a really big difference, to be honest it changes the gameplay.

As you say you were part of WKD you should at least tell us who you are.

You cant be a 12 year old kid today just by the time that passed since WKD.

In order to restrict rental accounts, you must be able to designate PCs that can access the master server.
(e.g. PC unique numbers such as Mac address)
This is the second-factor authentication method for genuine software these days.

what an amazing amount of spiritual misery and cognitive blindness here.

Scawen, just remove that siren feature !

Quote from yschoi93 :

In order to restrict rental accounts, you must be able to designate PCs that can access the master server.
(e.g. PC unique numbers such as Mac address)
This is the second-factor authentication method for genuine software these days.

Mac addresses are very easy to change in software, unsure how it is in windows, but on Linux it's just a single file you change and you get a different mac address

It is very easy to change the MAC address and SSD-HDD serial. In Windows, you can do this with programs. You can even change your MAC address by contacting your internet provider. this is possible. If you are considering a ban method, it should be motherboard ban.

I was using these methods when I got banned in an online game whose name I don't want to give. Every time I was banned, I would switch to my other account by following the steps I mentioned. Finally they solved the problem and I got a motherboard ban.

Quote from Degats :

TC has *never* sold in-game currency (or items) for real money. Various other cruise servers have in the past (maybe still do?), but TC hasn't.

I never said they had.

Try to keep up and please stop suggesting I've said things that I haven't.

I've pointed out that the ability to freely donate money between players enables a real world trade in your currency. In turn that enables ringmasters to rent LFS licenses in contravention to our license agreement, in order to gain TC credits which they sell for real world money, obtained from richer people that don't want to play your game in the spirit that we assume it was meant.

If you can't understand this, the only explanation is that you don't want to understand. If you do understand but think this is fine, then we have a different point of view that cannot be reconciled.

Quote from Degats :

We've always been against it on principle, but there's not really a lot we can do about it - any trading of real money for TC money is happening off-server, between individuals.

Boypower states on TC's behalf that officially you are neutral:

Quote :

QUOTE: we allow people to advertise these services on our platforms, including our forum

https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/2081198#post2081198

Quote from Degats :

I'm not sure where you got the idea that TC is doing it ourselves.

I haven't thought that or suggested it any any point.

Quote from RealistAdam :

It is very easy to change the MAC address and SSD-HDD serial. In Windows, you can do this with programs. You can even change your MAC address by contacting your internet provider. this is possible. If you are considering a ban method, it should be motherboard ban.

You clearly have no idea what a MAC address is.
That's a unique number that cannot be changed in any way.
You are confusing it with an IP address, which can be changed or spoofed.

If you read my article, I did not mention it for hardware. What I'm talking about is the internet MAC address and it has nothing to do with the IP address. The Mac address does not change unless you change it. You can change this either with a program or with the provider from whom you receive internet service. Not forbidden. As I said, I was constantly repeating these steps for a game I was playing. Now they have introduced a motherboard ban. The solution doesn't work. (I wasn't cheating in the game. We were just banned from the game rules.)

Anyway, no game hardware can ban your Mac address. Generally, it can ban the MAC address in your internet address. But big games issue motherboard bans for players who can overcome these steps.

https://technitium.com/tmac/
https://sourceforge.net/projects/best-hwid-v2-changer/

Quote from Scawen :

I've pointed out that the ability to freely donate money between players enables a real world trade in your currency. In turn that enables ringmasters to rent LFS licenses in contravention to our license agreement, in order to gain TC credits which they sell for real world money, obtained from richer people that don't want to play your game in the spirit that we assume it was meant.

As Chuck mentioned a few pages ago, do we know the scale of the issue or are we just playing a game of virtue-signalling, hypothesising, and finger-pointing?

I suspect if the aim is to actually solve the issue in a constructive way, it's better to engage with the management of TC (the most active community still in the game) rather than putting the world to rights on a forum.

Quote from Yisc[NL :

;2081566"]That's a unique number that cannot be changed in any way.

I'm pretty sure that mac address spoofing is normal.

Anyway, to those who talk about device identification, I'm not really about to give up development again to work out ways of analysing which device we are on in great detail. I'm actually trying to get back to development of what the people actually want, but I have been constantly distracted by hackers the whole year.

Quote from Bradracer :

As Chuck mentioned a few pages ago, do we know the scale of the issue or are we just playing a game of virtue-signalling, hypothesising, and finger-pointing?

The instant you say "virtue-signalling" you have lost all credibility and I read no further.

It's funny how may people around here are attributing me with all sorts of stuff I haven't said, and aren't reading what I have actually said.

I realise it's 2024, but there must still be a place for replying to what people actually said, instead of making up stuff you pretend they said, and arguing against that? Or is that too old-fashioned now?

Quote from Scawen :

I've pointed out that the ability to freely donate money between players enables a real world trade in your currency. In turn that enables ringmasters to rent LFS licenses in contravention to our license agreement, in order to gain TC credits which they sell for real world money

TC could be a part of the issue, but the other part of the issue is that LFS doesn't have any preventions against sharing accounts, so there is nothing preventing them from sharing the accounts

This getting so off topic lol, this is just people being thick and giving out their passwords to others. IDK what that has got to do with an in game money system.

Quote from RacerAsh3 :

Fact of the matter is, if the LFS developers wish to enforce their ToS/EULA (or whatever they like to call it), perhaps the onus should be on them to implement mechanisms to enforce those terms (i.e don’t share accounts etc).

What? You as player agree with the terms and conditions https://www.lfs.net/agreement
It's up to you to follow them, or don't play.
If you break the rules, there could be consequences:

Quote :

Extreme disruptive or offensive behaviour by a user, towards the developers or members of the community, may result in temporary or permanent suspension of the user's Live for Speed license.

You sound a bit like "ok, it's forbidden by law to kill someone, but look, nobody enforced it, *bang* *bang* I shot him!" ... makes no sense to me.