Just had one of those ("I'm fast, go out of my way!") on the usual GTR @ Aston National.
He was doing 1:41 and was behind me. He then overtook me by cutting the chicane and taking the guy in front of me out.
In the next lap he crashed with someone else before the hairpin (I had difficulties to avoid both) and blamed the other guy - but seeing what he did before I'm pretty sure it was his fault..

Quote from tristancliffe :

Edit: No pitspotter does not NEED to be built in. It is not realistic except in ovals (where the drivers lack the IQ to look in their mirrors or use their memories). I have never, and will never use anything like pitspotter, and I race just fine. Use your mirrors - they tell you EVERYTHING you need to know. You can know exactly, to within 0.25m where any car is at any time in LFS.

Don't want to start a debate here about mirror using, but I can't even see my mirrors (side). Once someone moves from my center mirror, they have the entire rear quarterpanel+ to play around with me never seeing him until he's at my door. Pitspotter is needed for those who use realistic FOV (without the perception stretch) and drive the tintops. Else I have no idea where the other car is for quite some distance around mine.

Quote from mrodgers :

Don't want to start a debate here about mirror using, but I can't even see my mirrors (side). Once someone moves from my center mirror, they have the entire rear quarterpanel+ to play around with me never seeing him until he's at my door. Pitspotter is needed for those who use realistic FOV (without the perception stretch) and drive the tintops. Else I have no idea where the other car is for quite some distance around mine.

If you've seen them in your mirrors then they disappear round the side of you then it's obvious that they're there, isn't it?

If you don't know where they are, assume they're alongside you. I use 76degrees fov and cockpit view. Sometimes I'll watch a replay and find that someone I left room for was actually much further back than I thought. But I'd much rather it was that way than taking risks, guessing and hoping they're not in my way and having the occasional accident as a result.

Maybe it was silly to say that it should be built in, but it is handy if you choose to use it. I suppose it depends on how realistic you want to be. The map is arcadey, but it is a good idea to use it as it helps yourself and everyone else.

Maybe after enough practice you could use the mirrors to the same effect, but I haven't tried

+1 for pitspotter being built in.

However, note that the pitspotter voice samples will need to be redone, they sound familiar to one of my generally sound packs.

the last turn on astion national is hell. Personally i feel like if you suck at the last turn (you people know who you are) then dont drive on aston national because you will most likely cause a crash.


On almost every other turn you can pass successfully if the person is slower... but on the last turn, if the guy infront if significantly slower, it will most likely cause an accident even if the chaser tries to slow down.

i dont use pitspotter and i would hate to be forced to use it

Quote from andy29 :

The map is arcadey, but it is a good idea to use it as it helps yourself and everyone else.

It is arcadey yes. But one day Scawen will make a 'hardcore mode' or something similar (I hope), and thus maps, overlays and stuff that cannot be transmitted by 'radio' (for which I'll allow undetailed overlays) will not be available. A pitboard, a radio overlay (which will control things like pitstop settings, live setup changes (brakes and arbs), basic timing data and visible tyre condition is all* you'll get.

*I may not have included everything you'd need to keep or remove, and I haven't given what I wrote a lot of thought, so if it's silly just ignore it. The jist is the hardcore mode removing excessively arcadey stuff.

Quote from duke_toaster :

+1 for pitspotter being built in.

However, note that the pitspotter voice samples will need to be redone, they sound familiar to one of my generally sound packs.

The sounds are from Papyrus' Nascar 2002/3, but all you'd need to do is record some new ones. AFAIK you can already do that so it wouldn't be a problem.

It would have to be able to be disabled though, because I can understand that some people would find it annoying, or just wouldn't want to use it.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It is arcadey yes. But one day Scawen will make a 'hardcore mode' or something similar (I hope), and thus maps, overlays and stuff that cannot be transmitted by 'radio' (for which I'll allow undetailed overlays) will not be available. A pitboard, a radio overlay (which will control things like pitstop settings, live setup changes (brakes and arbs), basic timing data and visible tyre condition is all* you'll get.

*I may not have included everything you'd need to keep or remove, and I haven't given what I wrote a lot of thought, so if it's silly just ignore it. The jist is the hardcore mode removing excessively arcadey stuff.

Well, I can't wait for that day

Yellow flags are the same. When everyone has to slow down a certain amount when one appears, it will be great. At the moment it just doesn't work, as many people on public servers don't, which means that nobody can because they'll lose a heap of places. You can't half do it, it's got to be all or nothing.

Anyway, this is now faaaaar off topic...

I think the art of door-to-door, or side-by-side, racing is lost on the majority of online racers. If someone gets along side, they believe the other should yield without compromise and continue on their optimum line. That's not how it works. It's a team effort, kiddies.

Don't get me wrong, if I see your front wheels in my ahead view, I'll back out and give way. But if you're right along side me, we're going through the corner *together*. This is where most people I meet lose the plot. At this point, both cars must compromise and take not so advantageous lines. It's called dicing and it can be beautiful. I've had races with some people, whom I favor unequivocally because of their group awareness, where we went back and forth for 10 or 15 laps in a row.

Now *that's* fun!

Quote from Gentlefoot :

That may be right. I often think "hmm - hotlapper"

Heh, me too And thinking like that is obvious. If someone can drive amazingly fast but uses only one line through corner and does not care if someone else 'has right to it', repeating his maneuvers from race to another, I often respect him less and become less forgiving for him, driving defensively and therefore try to guide him noticing that a race isn't always won by 'driving on tracks'. After race they may throw comments like "blocking noob!11", but who cares, they're hotlappers

Quote from Gentlefoot :

Not that all hotlappers are the same.

Also true, thats why this post shouldn't be taken 100% serious

Quote from Slartibartfast :

I think the art of door-to-door, or side-by-side, racing is lost on the majority of online racers. If someone gets along side, they believe the other should yield without compromise and continue on their optimum line. That's not how it works. It's a team effort, kiddies.

Don't get me wrong, if I see your front wheels in my ahead view, I'll back out and give way. But if you're right along side me, we're going through the corner *together*. This is where most people I meet lose the plot. At this point, both cars must compromise and take not so advantageous lines. It's called dicing and it can be beautiful. I've had races with some people, whom I favor unequivocally because of their group awareness, where we went back and forth for 10 or 15 laps in a row.

Now *that's* fun!

If I'm inside you and far enough alongside, the corner's mine. From that point on if you choose to stay side-by-side around the outside of the corner it's your own risk.
That's actually where a lot of people lose the plot. They think that because they are able to stay side-by-side they are entitled to do so. The driver on the inside is allowed to assume the racing line, and that can mean running through the corner at full speed and so using all of the track on the exit of the corner.

Far too many people complain about being pushed wide when really the collision was not intentional and it was their own fault because it was their responsibility to concede the position.

person in inside always has the right !!it is his way to carry racing line

If any artificial driving aids such as Pitspotter are included by the devs they will have gone against everything this game is about.

The subject matter of racing room is a skill which should be learnt through experience and not an aid.

Quote from sinbad :

If I'm inside you and far enough alongside, the corner's mine. From that point on if you choose to stay side-by-side around the outside of the corner it's your own risk.

Sigh.

So, can I just clarify, Sinbad? You're saying that if you and I are exactly in line with each other at the beginning of the braking zone, we brake together, we're still exactly in line with each other at the turn-in point, but you have the inside, it's my fault if there's any contact as we proceed around the corner together? Is that right?

You seem to be suggesting that in this situation I am supposed to lift and let you have the position. Correct?

If I end up getting pushed into the grass on exit, it's my fault for driving next to you? Am I getting it yet?


Please note, I'm very happy with the idea that one or the other of us deserves to have the racing line uncontested if there's no significant overlap between our cars at the turn-in point, but I think you will find that if two cars are absolutely alongside each other, neither has exclusive rights to the racing line as they go through the corner, and each is expected to leave some room for the other. I'm pretty sure this is exactly what OP was talking about.

I'm not just trying to pick a fight here for the sake of it, and if you think I've misrepresented you, please let me know. It's just a little disturbing if serious LFSers are disagreeing on such a basic convention. I think you can well imagine the fun and games when two people are alongside each other, and one of them holds your view while the other one holds mine.

Quote from sinbad :

They think that because they are able to stay side-by-side they are entitled to do so. The driver on the inside is allowed to assume the racing line, and that can mean running through the corner at full speed and so using all of the track on the exit of the corner.

Far too many people complain about being pushed wide when really the collision was not intentional and it was their own fault because it was their responsibility to concede the position.

ok, now i'm confused. if somebody is passing me on the inside, i'm obviously not going to cut them off, i'm going to stay on the outside, but why should they be allowed to take the inside AND the outside, and force me off the outside by swinging out on the exit? imo, if you come in on the inside and don't get far enough ahead of the car you are overtaking to let them tuck in behind you, then you should have to hold the inside line so they have somewhere to go.

[edit: haha, jtr99 beat me too it ]

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Mike: I don't know if the professional racing you're a fan of uses feedback like pitspotter or not, I've never really watched US racing series, but it seems pretty unrealistic to me.

Don't know if it changes your feelings about it, but Nascar does exactly this: there are people at the top of the stands with binoculars and a radio link to the car, constantly telling the driver about where the other cars are relative to his own position. "Stay high... stay high... clear!", etc. And Sato's team were doing the same for him in several F1 races last season, although only for the race start -- don't know if they still do it.

Quote :

I don't know if that's what Sinbad is saying (I doubt it, since I've watched him race competitively a few times and he was always 100% decent) but I have heard other old-school LFSers say stuff like this in the past.

I should be clear, I'm not accusing Sinbad of being a dirty racer. I'm just trying to be clear about what convention we're going to agree to follow here, because having multiple conflicting conventions leads to chaos and bad feelings.

And maybe Sinbad's way is better, I'm prepared to admit it.

Certainly if I was actually in exactly the position I've talked about, where I'm directly alongside someone else, on the outside, at the turn-in point, 9 times out of 10 I'm going to lift a little and let him have the line, but that's mostly because I don't trust strangers enough to believe that they will give me room, and I'd rather lose one position than get punted into the sand (and then abused by a guy who thinks he was doing the right thing! ).

Quote :

For what it's worth, I'd give you room. That's assuming I could even get alongside you anyway - I remember the last time I raced you I was stuck behind you the whole race.

Thanks, Kev, much appreciated. It is very generous that you tell this story in a way that suggests I was possibly a little bit fast, rather than just wide and slow as was in fact the case.

My thoughts:

1. Yes, giving room is very important. Using the L/R look buttons is important as well.

2. There seems to be some confusion about the "racing line" so to speak. Some believe that the person who is ahead at the point of turn in has the racing line(even if on the outside of the other car), others believe even if someone is a half car in front and they themselves are on the inside of the turn that THEY have the line and the other car should yield.

3. A lot of it has to do with the 5 lap races as most people will agree, because often the race is won in turn 1 @ blackwood with a 5 lap race.

4. (and this i think is the big one). If its a 5 lap race, it'll be over in 6 or 7 minutes anyway, just race again! Its not the end of the world if you DO manage to get bumped or put into the wall. The rediculous arguments that ensue are distracting to those of us who were not involved and are still racing (like when trying to see the "arcady" map). As long as the person at fault (or both parties) can say they are sorry and wait a few minutes, i dont see the big deal. I'll agree its frustrating, especially as I notice myself getting faster and further to the front, but again....its only a 5 lap race. there will always be another.

You'll never solve the problem on public servers, no matter how many educated racers you have.

Quote :

They think that because they are able to stay side-by-side they are entitled to do so. The driver on the inside is allowed to assume the racing line, and that can mean running through the corner at full speed and so using all of the track on the exit of the corner.

Far too many people complain about being pushed wide when really the collision was not intentional and it was their own fault because it was their responsibility to concede the position

Why does being on the inner part of a corner, and side by side give you the right to the use the racing line and run another car off the track?

Am I reading you right?

If this is true I've wasted the last 8 years
I Should just use the racing line and send them into the grass ?.
Inside/outside, if your level ....you leave room.


John

I don't know if I made my point very well

We all know the basic overlap rule. The inside car has the right to take the racing line. *Remember Schumacher taking off Montoya at a left-hander at Imola. That was borderline, on the very edge of fair, because he had full control over the line he was driving and pushed him out on the exit of a fairly long corner. But it was technically legal.* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOW-jngVoT4

Generally you find that when 2 cars go through a corner side by side, both drivers are playing ball. It is great fun. But the rule is there to discourage it, because when drivers are going all out, accidents happen. If the driver on the inside brakes as late as possible, sidebyside should not even be an option for the outside driver, but if he tries it, the driver on the inside doesn't have much chance of not hitting him. But the driver on the outside should ALWAYS expect the driver on the inside to just follow the racing line, that's the point I'm making I think, because he is entitled to do so.

I don't condone anybody doing a Schumacher (or what countless drivers do each weekend no doubt), but if you stay on the outside when it's obvious who has the corner (and let's face it, 2 cars sidebyside it's fairly clear cut who has the right of way), it's your own risk, you should always expect someone to drive to the extent of the rules. I know I expect that from people.

EDIT: Racing is a non-contact sport, we all know this. It's everyone's responsibility to try to avoid collisions. Now let me put it this way. With what I just said and given what we all know about the overlap rule and who has the right to take the racing line, how would the driver on the outside be helping to avoid collisions by hanging on around the outside?

Quote from sinbad :

If I'm inside you and far enough alongside, the corner's mine. From that point on if you choose to stay side-by-side around the outside of the corner it's your own risk.

Hahaha. i hope everyone remembers this if they run into you on the racetrack.

Quote from Gabkicks :

Hahaha. i hope everyone remembers this if they run into you on the racetrack.

I hope they do.

Quote from sinbad :

I don't know if I made my point very well

We all know the basic overlap rule. The inside car has the right to take the racing line. *Remember Schumacher taking off Montoya at a left-hander at Imola. That was borderline, on the very edge of fair, because he had full control over the line he was driving and pushed him out on the exit of a fairly long corner. But it was technically legal.* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOW-jngVoT4

Generally you find that when 2 cars go through a corner side by side, both drivers are playing ball. It is great fun. But the rule is there to discourage it, because when drivers are going all out, accidents happen. If the driver on the inside brakes as late as possible, sidebyside should not even be an option for the outside driver, but if he tries it, the driver on the inside doesn't have much chance of not hitting him. But the driver on the outside should ALWAYS expect the driver on the inside to just follow the racing line, that's the point I'm making I think, because he is entitled to do so.

I don't condone anybody doing a Schumacher (or what countless drivers do each weekend no doubt), but if you stay on the outside when it's obvious who has the corner (and let's face it, 2 cars sidebyside it's fairly clear cut who has the right of way), it's your own risk, you should always expect someone to drive to the extent of the rules. I know I expect that from people.

i'm not accusing you of unfair play either, but i am still a bit confused/concerned, as i think it would be easy for someone to interpret this as meaning that it's ok to brake late and cut someone off as long as it's on the inside. if i tried a pass on the inside and ran the other car off the road because i carried too much speed to do anything but swing out on the exit i would fully expect to be cussed out.

Quote from evilgeek :

i'm not accusing you of unfair play either, but i am still a bit confused/concerned, as i think it would be easy for someone to interpret this as meaning that it's ok to brake late and cut someone off as long as it's on the inside. if i tried a pass on the inside and ran the other car off the road because i carried too much speed to do anything but swing out on the exit i would fully expect to be cussed out.

Something the rule is actually there to try and prevent. It protects drivers being passed by encouraging them to concede the position they have already lost as soon as possible.

Hey Sinbad, thanks for replying so quickly.

Quote from sinbad :

I don't know if I made my point very well

I don't know, it sounds like possibly you made it all too well.

Quote :

We all know the basic overlap rule. The inside car has the right to take the racing line.

This is the crux of it: no, I don't know that rule. And I think I'm not alone.

As far as I'm aware, accepted racing etiquette is that the only way you get granted exclusive ownership of the racing line is to be well in front at the turn-in point. When there's overlap, there's a mutual responsibility to leave room (so I would call the Schumy move in the video as dodgy, really, but that's for another day).

Cheers.