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Racing Room
(94 posts, started )
Quote from Gentlefoot : a classic racing accident.

how right you are m8

Driver A was Ronnie Peterson

Driver B was Jackie Stewert

Race was 1973 brit GP at silverstone

it was on ESPN classic at weekend, recorded it just for peterson going through woodcote on opposite lock and of course schecters crash at the end of lap 1 which resulted in his nickname of fletcher after the overconfident seagull
Quote from tinvek :Driver A was Ronnie Peterson

Driver B was Jackie Stewert

Race was 1973 brit GP at silverstone

Good to see that even the best mess these things up from time to time! You are in good company, it seems, Sinbad.
Quote from jtr99 :Good to see that even the best mess these things up from time to time! You are in good company, it seems, Sinbad.

I really don't know how to take that comment.
Quote from sinbad :I really don't know how to take that comment.

Not taking the piss, I meant it sincerely -- it seems that you and Jackie Stewart have in common a feeling that you would have a right to the racing line under those circumstances. As I've made clear above, I don't agree that this is the best way to handle things, but then again maybe I don't have enough "killer instinct" to be a champion driver.

I can argue with you about the ethics of all this but I'd feel on shakier ground arguing with Jackie.
Quote from jtr99 :I'd feel on shakier ground arguing with Jackie.

haha, werd.

truth is, 9/10 times i actually do yield to people who pass me on the inside, and only cling stubbornly to the outside line if a) i'm reasonably sure the other driver isn't going to hit me and b) i'm carrying enough speed to come out close to even on the exit.

the latter is a judgement call that has to be made in the moment, the former kindof depends on the philosophy of the other driver, which is what makes these discussions interesting.
...and then I go online to race at some public servers....

It occurs to me that everyone here in this discussion is exactly the driver I want to be on track with. Someone with a clear cut philosophy on how to handle themselves in traffic.

Not like the clowns I was racing last night, who's sole technique for passing was to drive right through the middle of my car.

Too much ghost racing on GT4 I suppose...
Quote from jtr99 :Not taking the piss, I meant it sincerely -- it seems that you and Jackie Stewart have in common a feeling that you would have a right to the racing line under those circumstances. As I've made clear above, I don't agree that this is the best way to handle things, but then again maybe I don't have enough "killer instinct" to be a champion driver.

I can argue with you about the ethics of all this but I'd feel on shakier ground arguing with Jackie.

I'm sure you meant it well, but the suggestion (however sincere) that I have "messed up" is fairly groundless isn't it? How have I messed up? I construed that comment as either meaning I've messed up in this thread, or that I mess up regularly when I race people online. Neither is true (imho, although feel free to ask everybody else about the latter).

Regarding the above quoted post, if you're putting words in my mouth I think it would be good to get them right. I don't know just who is at fault in that example without seeing it. I have never said that lunging for the inside from way back automatically grants you total cornering rights, in fact I think somewhere in this mess of a thread I clarified my opinion on that already, and if you're not far enough alongside by the turn-in point (as may be the case here) then it's really a move you shouldn't have attempted in the first place, and you'd have to expect the guy (driver A) to turn in.
Posting table out again


Quote :
...and then I go online to race at some public servers....

It occurs to me that everyone here in this discussion is exactly the driver I want to be on track with. Someone with a clear cut philosophy on how to handle themselves in traffic.

Not like the clowns I was racing last night, who's sole technique for passing was to drive right through the middle of my car

Yes and if even a couple of them read this they may see the light.
I think we should have some form of racing etiquette posted in a sticky thread ...maybe something like this?.
It concerns GPL but I think it still give's good advice.


http://www.saf3r.com/Downloads ... nded_Driver_Behaviour.pdf

What do you think?

John
Quote from sinbad :I'm sure you meant it well, but the suggestion (however sincere) that I have "messed up" is fairly groundless isn't it? How have I messed up?

Fair point; I can see that what I wrote was ambiguous. I was actually meaning that Jackie had messed up on that one occasion, and that based on the fact that Jackie would think about making that move, there was a good chance that you and he shared the same view on who has rights to the line in a corner.

I did not intend to accuse you, however indirectly, of lunging for the inside and making dirty moves.

From the tone of your post it sounds like you're offended, so let me apologize before this gets out of hand. It's become clear to me over the course of the discussion that you have a sincerely held, consistent view, and that you race fairly within the framework of that view. I have a slightly different view, but let me emphasize that I would far rather be next to you on the track than someone who pays no attention to the location of cars around them.

The reason I called you out on your initial post was simply because when you're playing by my rules it's a little frustrating to come up against a driver who's playing by your rules. You can see what would happen, I'm sure. I read the situation as being shared rights to the corner, he reads the situation as being his line, and we both look pissed off with each other as I get pushed into the grass on the exit. And in fact, that's not really what happens: in the real situation I back off at some point because I can see that the other guy is not giving any space. But still, it's annoying.

So I've been pursuing the discussion in this thread in an attempt to get a consensus on what the standards are. If the consensus turns out to favour your version of racing etiquette, then fine, I'll race that way too. It's a bit like deciding whether to drive on the left or the right on public roads: it doesn't really matter which, it just matters that everyone knows what the standard is.
About racing room, i think that the problem is a bit more complexed.

Is not just people "ignorance" on racing etiquette or evil racers running around.

I think that a sort of skill is involved too. When you are trying to overtake or to defend urself from overtaking, lot of times, u have to recalculate your usual trajectory and made one with limited space, limited braking zone, less downforce if u are drafting, as fast as you can for mantaining or obtaining the position.

Lot of times, if people that are on ur inside crash on u on exit, or people outside crash on u on entering, is because they don't know how to run in that limited space without crashing out of the track, so they desperately try to remain in, involving other peoples in crashes.

It's a sort of lack of training/experience under close racing situations
Quote from Slartibartfast :...and then I go online to race at some public servers....

It occurs to me that everyone here in this discussion is exactly the driver I want to be on track with. Someone with a clear cut philosophy on how to handle themselves in traffic.

Not like the clowns I was racing last night, who's sole technique for passing was to drive right through the middle of my car.

Too much ghost racing on GT4 I suppose...

This is exactly what I think every time I see one of these types of threads. I read them, they are great information and great discussion. Then it is realized, everyone posting and reading are the ones who already follow the whateverthethreadisabout. And I believe I've already stated something to that effect here earlier or in another similar thread. Then I go out on the public servers, see some of the folks that are on public, and I think, "Guys, I have the perfect reading material for you all...." But then again, I usually don't see a whole bunch of folks on LFS anyways.

Sure, we may help out a few here and there with these threads, but the majority who would benefit from reading this discussion and all others like this, aren't reading the forums.

Oh yea, @ Kev who posted this back on page 2 when the pitspotter mod was being discussed:
Quote :Mike: I don't know if the professional racing you're a fan of uses feedback like pitspotter or not, I've never really watched US racing series, but it seems pretty unrealistic to me.

It is Nascar that has spotters at the top of the stands watching the races. I don't know how it is inside other racing series cars around the world, but in Nascar, they cannot turn their heads to see their sides and they have no side mirrors. If someone is just slightly behind them (comparing say front wheel to front wheel and theirs is just behind yours), they cannot see the car. They have head restraints that extend at eye level past the face of the helmet. Since Nascar and high speed oval racing is so different than what you all are use to, at 180 mph constant speed, you wouldn't want to be guessing if the guy is there beside you or clear of you. 180 mph straight into the wall, backing into the wall, side swiping the wall, any way you hit the wall at 180 mph, will hurt. Thus, the complete imobilizing of the head. They can't lean it forwards, move it to the side, or turn to look out the side.
I think it would be cool to have a LFSForum race server, locked with password it would be a cool place to do some racing with fellow forum spammers.
Quote from Blackout :I think it would be cool to have a LFSForum race server, locked with password it would be a cool place to do some racing with fellow forum spammers.

That would rock
+1
#90 - Iron
Quote from JohnPenn :Posting table out again




Yes and if even a couple of them read this they may see the light.
I think we should have some form of racing etiquette posted in a sticky thread ...maybe something like this?.
It concerns GPL but I think it still give's good advice.


http://www.saf3r.com/Downloads ... nded_Driver_Behaviour.pdf

What do you think?

John

I liked this bit:

Quote :Having said all this, one would have to add that corner rights is not an exact science. There are some variables. Presented here is just the basic concept of the accepted etiquette. Even in real life, with full vision, full sensory feedback, infinite fps and resolution, its not uncommon for real drivers to come to grief with this - usually saying it was the other guy's fault. With GPLs' huge blind spots its even more hit and miss, often literally. (You can however simulate real life to the letter by saying it was the other guy's fault).

Quote from Blackout :I think it would be cool to have a LFSForum race server, locked with password it would be a cool place to do some racing with fellow forum spammers.

Personally I think that would be a great idea, however I'm sure some people will feel that this will take away good respected racers from public servers.
Quote from JohnPenn :Posting table out again




Yes and if even a couple of them read this they may see the light.
I think we should have some form of racing etiquette posted in a sticky thread ...maybe something like this?.
It concerns GPL but I think it still give's good advice.


http://www.saf3r.com/Downloads ... nded_Driver_Behaviour.pdf

What do you think?

John

Quote :
Never run into the back of someone in front of you. This is probably one of the silliest things one driver
can do to another. There’s few excuses here. If you are behind then you have the responsibility to drive in a
manner that will not lead to you running into a car ahead. It doesn't matter if you're faster, think you have the
right to be let by, are more talented, or think that all slower drivers should not hold up faster drivers. If you're
behind someone then that's your tough luck. You have to earn your pass the same as anyone. However
frustrated you may be, or whatever, it is your responsibility not to run into the car in front of you. Even if their
braking zones occur earlier than yours would normally, then tough luck. You have to anticipate these
possibilities and drive accordingly.

I think this is the main problem online. Sometimes you can have better races with AI ,because they following some rules.

ghostmod needed .mpr


Uli
Attached files
ghostmod needed .mpr - 111.5 KB - 162 views
After reading the thread it seems that you are trying to make the whole "corner rights" -thing way too complicated. I would just dump the whole "the right for a corner" -way of thinking and try to approach the situations with different way of thinking, which would encourage close competition instead of pursuing corner rights where 20 people are trying to win a race in T1.

Choosing the situations when to push and when to back off are probably the most hardest part of racing, and usually the uncertainty while trying either one will increase the risk of contact. To have close races, one needs to be able to control the car, put it into right place at right time. One must also be able to see where are the others going, where they are and what are they up to. And all this plus more in tenths of a second. Add the huge variation in skill levels, track knowledge and racing experience and the whole term of "corner rights" sounds suddenly way out of this world. But the point is to be decisive with your doings. Uncertainty is a big factor and is caused by and causes a lot frustration.

Imho, racing situations should never be seen on the basis of rules. Rules are important, but common sense is the base where you build your racing skills and car control. Good set of rules don't help if you don't know what you are doing. If you need a rulebook to tell if something that someone did was plain wrong, you have a lot to learn.

But, imho the key to good races is to know the track, know the car and know the opponents. When you are racing with people who you know well and they know you well, you can stay that extra few metres closer through corners, try harder passes and drive more defensively than you would normally simply because you know what kind of ball game you're trying to play and who has got the ball. In a way, "the idea of ball game" can describe racing quite well. The one who has the ball controls the situation to some degree. However the outcome is greatly affected by everyone on the playing field.

When you are driving behind someone, the question of "who has the ball" depends on many things. Like track knowledge, racing experience and situation awareness. If you're both equal on these terms, then the player in front of you has the ball and you are trying to take it away from him. If he is slower, or a total newbie, the ball is on your hands. One way of thinking would be that he has something that you want, the position. To get it, you have certain outlines what you can or can not do. The key is to understand these outlines, not to memorize them to be forgotten once again behind wheel.

Having said that I think most of my accidents are caused by the simple fact that was uncertain of the other player's intentions or whereabouts. I don't think that I am anything special as driver, but I think that since starting playing online on LFS servers I have got a lot better on judging situations, when to attack and when to back down and this simple skill has saved me a lot of cars and races in LFS.

Uhm, that's it
Tristan, easy on the IQ of oval driver please. Racing room needs to be given everywhere, and the oval being the simplest track to get around without wrecking attracts new drivers. New drivers need to learn to give racing room, something that comes with experience.

Pitspotter, good tool to have handy. Auto pitlaning for contact? Sorry but this burns my ass. LFS is a Simulator. Cars dont magically go POOF when they get a little out of shape or hit something. See a yellow flag? Its warning ahead of time that something has gone down ahead of you. Your car spun? Wait till the track is clear before pulling back out. Car spun in front of you? Tough, its part of racing, things go wrong.

Private servers are really the only way to make sure you get experienced racers. Because you only invite who you beleive is a clean racer.

Racing Room
(94 posts, started )
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