Keep on tweakin'. Gonna give these a try tongiht. Keep in mind, I think GTR2 is close, but there's almost no loss of grip during cornering, and I dont think it's the tight setup either. I tried Dave Purdys but they gave the driving on ICE feel again. We need something in between and I hope these give that feeling.
Why do the GTR2 demo cars feel better in GTL? Anyone notice this or is it me?
I cant figure this game out, It feels semi realistic from the cockpit, the car moving across the track, skipping over the bumps and wheel hopping is all so realistic, from inside, then you look at it from the outside and it looks like pole position for atari?!? wtf is that?
I like some things better than LFS, but its not enough to sell me on it, I might only buy it for an offline game since I am on dial up and cannot always race LFS
All of the recent ISI engined games (GTR, GTL, GTR2, rFactor) are like that and I agree that it looks terrible. There is some debate about the cause of the differences between the perceived dynamics of the car in internal vs external views. Some people argue that the external view give a true representation of the underlying physics and that the internal view uses effects (cockpit shake, eyepoint/head movement, sound and force feedback effects) to mask poor dynamics. Other people argue that the external view uses a simplified visual model which doesn't properly depict the underlying physics. The new Rhez 2006 car in the most recent rFactor patch does move around quite realistically in external view, so I'm not sure which camp is right.
Yeah, that is almost what it feels like, Although I really love that force feedback and cockpit movement, which is in my humble opinion where LFS is most lacking, feel for the car on the road, I've played R facotor and a lot of its mods and they have even less feel than LFS and is nowhere close to what i felt in GTR, and the external view is so so as well, LFS definatly has the best external visual, it really looks like the car is on the track, NR2003/papy games do that area very well too, along with the internal and FF..
In short, if LFS could raise the bar in those areas a bit, I see no reason why it couldnt become more mainstream, its the best sim but it takes some of that other visual aid to really get some peoples attention.
I don't want the random effects in LFS that GTR2 has. They mean nothing and are there purely for the immersion factor. The whole idea behind the physics driven FFB is to give an accurate representation of what the car is actually doing. ISI just throw together an event driven FFB, if understeer play this understeer effect etc. Many of the things you feel in ISI sims are things which you wouldn't really feel through the wheel but through your body.
Alot of people that hate lfs for whatever retarded reasons would probably be super fanboys if the game had better graphics, "real" cars and tracks etc. Some people dont care so much about what games has the most realistic physics. quality over quantity
I wouldnt go as far as to say they are random, If you drive a race car in real life when you brake very hard for a turn the rear wheels start to skip which nocks your head around, I have experianced that quite a bit, and if you give it a burp of throttle it'll quit, just like it did in GTR, its effects like that I feel LFS is lacking in...
I'm not arguing the entire ISI platform is fake, but if the LFS devs could do to that stuff what they have done with the tire and aero dynamics, it'll be intense, and im sure given enough time they will, and I cant wait.
Maybe something more like DR.
the steering does feel like its a bit too calm compared to DR. but there's no formula ford in lfs.. and there's no car quite exactly like the ones in lfs in dr yet.
i somehow doubt that the rough feeling of the steering wheel on dr and nkp is direct input from the physics ... i dont think current ffb technology is able to reproduce such subtle and fast effects if they come directly from the physics
I downloaded GTR2, tried it out, and I felt as if I was playing rFactor again, which I quickly discarded.
I don't know what makes LFS so far superior. It seems I'm unable to judge of ANYTHING in ISI's games. All my perceptions are either invalid or flawed. I miss all corners, my impression of speed is all wrong, I can't feel the grip at all. I don't know...
LFS just feels more realistic driving, even if some aspects aren't as polished. Also note that GTR2 was running at a whopping 15 fps on my system at low vid settings 1024x768, and LFS runs at 60 fps on maximum evrything.
DR's FFB comes directly from the forces at the virtual steering wheel to be exact, because the tyre forces are sent through a simulated steering rack. There's nothing fudged or canned in the FFB generation and it is directly driven by the physics as they happen.
Driver's republic feels alot better than nK pro.... Catching slides and controlling oversteer and understeeer feels much more natural. DR manages to give feedback of bumps and things of that nature while realisticly simulating the car trying to correct itself... something nkpro doesnt do.
I think it's not time to review the DR's physics yet. I think it certainly needs some tweaking though the base is already promising. But I want to drive some XRR stuff!
(But I have recently liked every new sim, so I may be little "biased" )
did you read the autosimsport article on driver's republic. DR's lead physics programmer spoke specificly about the force feedback and importance to reduce lag as much as possible. i dont remember exactly what he said... but maybe that is the reason for the subtle and fast effects to be able to come directly from the physics rathe than effects?
i did but i also read what peri has to say about current ffb hardware and how you cant improve it past its limitations with the current licensing issues
and having played dr again the wheel is a lot less rough and a lot more like in lfs then like in nkp so im inclined to belive that nkp uses effectsa whereas dr and lfs use solely phyiscs driven ffb
Almost fell off my chair after noticing this sound thing (see the attachment).
GTR2 physics just suck, but after finding NAPmod, it's lots better. But still not enjoyable because of the steering, the forces suck and feel laggy, and the steering feels laggy and unprecise. This is only noticeable when the car starts to go loose and because of crap steering, it mostly will. Looks nice though, but my machine runs LFS at average 80fps @ full graphics, GTR 2 stationary 30fps @ lowest settings.
Would never buy, I guess the enterntainment lasts few nights.
EDIT: from #liveforspeed irc-channel:
[13:47:04] <frokki> its totally random where and how much the blow-off valve sound occurs
[13:47:40] <frokki> but kinda funny to change from neutral to reverse, engine turned off, and hear a huuuge pfffftftftftf
[13:47:43] <DoN> wtf is that
[13:48:58] <zoic> that is because the physics engine doesn't have support for a turbo
[13:49:45] <frokki> so.. if i drive turbo porsche in gtr, there is actually no turbo, just those silly random sounds?
[13:50:07] <zoic> its just NA engine with soundeffects added to shift sounds
Afaik, yes it is just like that. I think they just take their generic NA engine but give it a torque/power curve that is similar to that of a turbo engine. Which basically means the engine response is completely wrong in all situations but full throttle.
But seeing from the GTR2 forums, the accuracy of physics engine isn't really that important to them. They're fine if it behaves "ok" and how they think it "feels" realistic. To them the physics engine is just another part of the game, and having licensed cars and tracks and a good "illusion" (read: canned effects) is atleast of the same, if not of higher, importance.
In LFS all we really concentrate on is the physics engine, so we LFSers mainly measure a sims realism by the accuracy of its physics. So when we look at GTR2, we see a half cooked hovercraft simulation, completely neglecting all the other stuff, like sounds, cars & tracks.
When they look at LFS, they see fantasy cars on fantasy tracks, crappy sounds and a physics engine that doesn't really behave like they "think" and "feel" it should to be realistic.
Of course there are the few people who really can enjoy the good sides of both, but they are in the minority and for most the bad points of the "other" sim completely ruin the rest of the game.
:soapbox:
[/end analysis of everlasting ISI/LFS conflict]
quality over quantity
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