lol, am not upset, dont worry, not offended, i dont visit the forum often, so i dunno how to use the smileys

yay finnaly some reconition lol ive been using KB since about S1B, after patch E i gave up lfs for about 2 months time because i was so frustrated with the new system with no KB help, but i finnnaly got back into it and learned to drift again. drifting in s2 is not nearly big as it was in S1 and i think its because of the new physics and the tire wear etc. i dont grip much but if i do i use AWD or RWD front wheel is just too hard for me with the ol' KB. i have a logitech nasscar wheel for ps2 sitting around and reacently ordered a ps2 to usb adapter for it so i can finnaly try a wheel. im looking forward to posting on the KB forum you have and hope i can be of help to the KB comunity.

I don't think there is even an issue worth considering here really. One person calls for a ban on keyboards and mouse? Where is this? Obviously it is not big news or worth even worrying about. I believe the proportion wheel users who detest the use of anything else is really quite small, most people are understanding or couldn't care less anyway.

Firstly let's get one thing straight. LFS is being developed for use with an analogue Wheel and Pedal set. You would expect no less from one of the only true race sims to ever be made. If you think there are a lot of purists in LFS well that is natural, to anyone who has been craving a true race sim that works well online this is their holy grail. So firstly, wheel will always be best and people who keep saying so are only speaking the truth, despite it sometimes sounding elitest or prejudiced towards others. Wheel users actually want you to join them, if you can. So wheel rules, and so it should.

Fortunately we can use other methods to control cars in LFS and apart from an analouge joystick (works quite well) the mouse is your next wisest choice. While I respect good keyboard racers, I marvel at the time they spend perfecting their technique to battle the digital on/off restrictions of keyboard control. Your mouse is there in front of you offering the promise of smooth steering control and more variety in car setups. If your mouse is too sensitive or too dull, try changing the mouse options in Windows Control Panel until you find a good setting for your style.

Gamepads may offer some small advantages over Keyboard control but even if they have analogue joysticks the range is often too small to be a great benefit.

Keyboard control is indeed difficult. While some automatic aid is still available, the response now when you press a key resembles more closely the real actions required to pilot the car. The result is usally a rather intricate symphony of tapping and pressing of keys that would make Mozart stare in wonder if he were only here to see it.
There can be no doubt that keyboard control does indeed take skill to be effective. There can be no doubt that mouse users really do have to control the car in a similar manner to wheel users and their skill is probably transferable from one controller to the other.
There can be no doubt that a force feeback analogue wheel and pedal set will change LFS for you forever, will change sim racing for you forever. Those who keep harping about the joy of having a wheel are often saying so because they feel like non-wheel users are missing out on the magic of LFS.

For most wheel users though we couldn't give a rat's bum what other people use as long as they race cleanly and competitively. By encouraging people to use other devices and not a force-feedback wheel is really holding them back from a great experience. Down with the revolution! :hyper:

*I support your actions to help others learn to use their chosen controller, I am sure most wheel users would also.

:iagree:

A wheel is a well spent investment for any sim. The pain and anguish of having limited control ability with keyboard or other digital controller is just too much to worry about.

When I first got into sims, I bought a wheel right away. It wasn't a force feedback wheel at the time, but it was something that had pedals, which seemed mandatory for the games I played (still is for current sims). Once my friends saw how much fun I was having, they ALL went out and bought themselves wheels, and we had large network races against each other -- where the fun was at. Then came along one friend who decided to buy a force feedback wheel and we were hooked even more... the control preference evolved in all of us and we got ourselves some nice wheels. I lucked out on buying the red MOMO wheel, and can say that is was worth it, even if it costed me more than the average FF wheel. Everyone knows you gotta have force feedback, tells you more about your driving performance than you ever thought possible without FF.

Now, whenever I have friends having an interest in this game, they start out asking why it is so hard with keyboard or mouse. I tell them this is no NFS game that they are all used to, and if I have my PC or wheel handy, I'll show them how it feels. They either go out and buy a wheel, or ask if they can play on my computer when I am not using it .

I do give all my support to those who don't choose a wheel to drive, possibly if they cannot afford one, or if they don't want to even buy one.... that is still quite a tough setup you got for a racing simulation . If you don't ever decide to switch, well good luck with any sort of project or ideas you have to make this difficult and slow control type feel successful, pretty soon the urge to buy a wheel will come to you

thx for the replies guys, like i said earlier, this project isnt about getting more people to mouse/keyboard drivers, but merely helping out these who are already using it, and doesnt have a choice. Hopefully they will one day be able to get a wheel, but at least for now they can enjoy competitive racing with Ks and Mouse

Quote from Lola Popeye :

So are you suggesting, instead of of encouraging Keyboard and Mouse users, we should just tell em to get a wheel, and if they cant (which is probably, hence why their using Ks/Mouse inthe first place) they should just leave LFS?

I think the reason most people don't have a wheel to begin with, is that they simply haven't needed one before... it's not like wheels are normal options when you buy a new computer. It's specialized equipment for special use

Helping k/b and mouse users out is a great idea but nevertheless you should also encourage them to buy a wheel if their situation allows for it because k/b and mouse can be very limiting as to the full spectrum of this game.

Many CRC guys are noting that it seems like the CRC has a love affair with the XFR. Primarily thats because it is FWD and therefore much more k/b-friendly. A bunch of my online buddies are k/b'ers and can't drive cars like the FO8 (on anything but the oval) while some of us can. We have lots of fun racing the FO8 on courses like AS National but many of the guys we know and trust can't join us.

We love them and enjoy racing with them but wish they would get wheels so that certain cars aren't a problem.

I applaud your efforts - keep up the good work helping the LFS community I've got big respect for the KB guys who invest a lot of their time to become competitive also

For the record though i would urge anyone who is a regular on LFS, and can afford a wheel to get one as soon as possible! You owe it to yourself to get the best experience from your favourite racing sim !!! You Won't regret it

In the first days of S2's new lfsworld there was a difference between the controllers at the world records list page. After some days this difference dissapeared. Why did this difference dissapeared? It was a good challenge between mousers and keyboarders. Now we have to open 744 charts to see the records.

Quote from HASTA :

In the first days of S2's new lfsworld there was a difference between the controllers at the world records list page. After some days this difference dissapeared. Why did this difference dissapeared? It was a good challenge between mousers and keyboarders. Now we have to open 744 charts to see the records.

because with mouse i was beating also wheel records, so devs tought that mouse is faster than wheel...

seriously: the bad thing was that it allowed poor wheelers to go up into the hotlap chart, by doing harder hotlaps with mouse instead...anyway, i think that it would be good to add view filters

Quote from Honey :

because with mouse i was beating also wheel records, so devs tought that mouse is faster than wheel...

since when did you learn to drive? but yea, on the WR page it will be nice like before where you can click Wheel, Ks,Kn or Mouse and see an overview of all the records for each controller for that track on just one page

hey people ! i'm ok with chensta , why keyboarders guys can't be fast like people who play with wheel , we need more help for WR plz scawen

Quote from DieselRO :

now i'm playing again with keyboard but i can only race the XF GTi propperly because i can floor the throttle all the way in most of the corners. The RWD's are a nightmare ... i can't get more than 3 laps in a row without spinning out (using Bob Smith's easy race setup)

I can drive the FOX in all tracks and FO8 on some with Ks.

The secret is to
1) having an understeery car (much-much more back wing than front a la 1 at front and 16 at the back)
2) moving the 1st gear ratio button to left (by very much ) and 2nd and 3rd gear just by a tincy bit to left...

You ownt have super fast laptimes but you won't spin out either. Finishing in top3-4 if perfectly manageable, sometimes even wins, as many people crash out driving a wheel

I'm probably the only one. But for some reason I'm faster using my mouse then I am my wheel illepall

But the best tip I can give is use a mouse, and learn morse code. And in RWD cars, take the corner one gear higher then you need too, which helps prevent spinouts

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

I'm probably the only one. But for some reason I'm faster using my mouse then I am my wheel illepall

But the best tip I can give is use a mouse, and learn morse code. And in RWD cars, take the corner one gear higher then you need too, which helps prevent spinouts

same here

probably we need a good wheel with force feedback, but it's a shame that mouse and keyboard racers are so penalised...

it is true that with much practise, mouse can be fast as wheel but only for hotlapping, because in race with mouse your tires will die much faster, so again a fast mouse racer is penalised...

what i would like from scawen to implement is throttle/brake with mouse wheel or make the mouse wheel to control the percentage of throttel/brake to apply when the throttle or brake button is pressed.

actually i'm developing a tool to achieve this, but with the first model i implemented it's worse because of windows timing that are so unaccurate, so i will reimplement it with real axis, but i'm so lazy and also i think that if scawen do not want to implement such thing into lfs, he will also not be happy for me to make this tool available.

PS two days ago i took for the first time the f08 on blackwood, i spent a lot time to make a fast and good setup and i could make 1.04.50, but a slight mistake while "tapping" throttle during corners and i started to drift, if i do it right, my tires are dead after 2 laps, i think it will be not unfair to give mouse a smoother way to control trhottle/brakes...
...to be honest, i must say i know there is a way to use the up/down axes of mouse as throttle/brake but it's really impossible to use it: in the best case you cannot "full throttle" because it requires too much movement and if you lift the mouse to adjust, you crash! ...it's a real pain i tried for long time but i was never able to make a lap without crashing...

i really hope Scawen will implement the throttle/brake with mouse wheel...

Quote from HASTA :

In the first days of S2's new lfsworld there was a difference between the controllers at the world records list page. After some days this difference dissapeared. Why did this difference dissapeared? It was a good challenge between mousers and keyboarders. Now we have to open 744 charts to see the records.

>> http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=122 <<

I won't ever bother defending KB against Wheel, it has no use. Everyone keeps saying, no mather what I say, 'get a wheel'. Now I will keep driving KB Burn the wheels

Perhaps if the KB community was larger and there was more (specialiased) setup making (=more testing) KB would be faster. And, if the KB / KAM community would work more together and 'form a bigger front' by meetings, shearing info,... We would get stronger vs Wheel users.

But hey..if everyone keeps telling "get a wheel"..nobody is left to use and test KB unless a few of us..which automaticly gives KB another push backwards.

(do some people now get why I hate the "get a wheel" phrase ?)

Quote from PLAYLIFE :

Finishing in top3-4 if perfectly manageable, sometimes even wins, as many people crash out driving a wheel

Hey, grab up your motiviation, it's not cause you drive with KB or M that you can't have to go for the win _as much_ as you can! I'm not driving for 4th place

I respect all mouse and keyboard drivers, started myself with the good old keyboard and loved it :lovies3d:.
No_one forces you to buy a wheel or use it in LFS, it's just that this game is a car racing simulator and I've never seen any racing car with a keyboard .

Keep it up with your keyboards, and don't forget the fun when you're playing in the wheeled world

3j

Quote :

A bunch of my online buddies are k/b'ers and can't drive cars like the FO8

well pickaxe, im keyboard and im pretty nifty round FEgreen reverse in it, 1:01 isnt exactly slow.........i hope

to solve everything just get a wheel

try reading some of the posts on this thread on why dat isnt an option.

but its always an option

me being an billionaire is always an option too, i can go stick up mr gates and take all his money, NOW if thats actually feasible is another thing right?

wheels arnt expensive i picked up my new MOMO racing force for 130 bucks last month dude

Quote from VTcommodore :

wheels arnt expensive i picked up my new MOMO racing force for 130 bucks last month dude

Maybe people have more important things to spend 130 bucks on, such as rent, bills, food, etc.