Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

From what I recall from Android's lateral slip curves for LFS, LFS has a tiny peak and then a small rapid dropoff before leveling out again. From my (limited) understanding, that small peak should not exist according to available RL tire data, and Todd.

No it doesn't. The longitudinal curve (acceleration) has a drop-off, but the lateral curve (cornering) forms a plateau with no loss of grip over the optimum slip angle.

Many many other sims do have this drop-off in the cornering curves, though, generally leading to the "unrecoverable spin syndrome" or "undriftability". Before patch T, LFS also had the drop-off, but not as severe as in many other so-called simulations, where the higher the slip, the more the grip drops and drops without end. Which is totally wrong.

Quote from Jakg :

Only GTR uses Starforce (thus the reason it isnt even installed on my PC anymore), GTR2 and RACE dont use it, not sure about GTL though

GTL has it, which is unfortunate. I wouldn't mind fooling around with it if it wasn't for that. A free copy came w/ my GTR2. I installed it initially because I was planning a rebuild. Since I did the rebuild, I will not install GTL.

Quote from AndroidXP :

No it doesn't. The longitudinal curve (acceleration) has a drop-off, but the lateral curve (cornering) forms a plateau with no loss of grip over the optimum slip angle.

Sorry about that. I must've been getting the curves you made backwards in my head. illepall

I just remembered seeing one with a tiny peak and drop before leveling off in similar fashion to the first one...

Sort of like this:

...^-------
../
./
/

Which, now that you corrected me, makes much more sense since it's possible to accelerate marginally faster with good throttle / clutch control than with spinning tires.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Sorry about that. I must've been getting the curves you made backwards in my head. illepall

actually you didnt

Quote :

I just remembered seeing one with a tiny peak and drop before leveling off in similar fashion to the first one...

Sort of like this:

...^-------
../
./
/

Which, now that you corrected me, makes much more sense since it's possible to accelerate marginally faster with good throttle / clutch control than with spinning tires.

iirc that was the shape of the lateral curve in p/q (andriod posted a pic of it a while ago) which also should be the reason for those unrecoverable low angle slides back then

I think BBT meant that post.

Yes, as I said, before patch T/S LFS had that tiny drop-off in the cornering curve, too. But I think because it levelled after that drop pretty quick, LFS was still quite driftable back then. If you look at any ISI curves, you'll see that they continue to fall after that peak, making it worse and worse the higher the slip angle gets.

Well, if i had a friend that where stupid at point that think Gt4 is exactly as real life, i wouldnt even talk to him anymore

Quote from Slidaaaa :

Well, if i had a friend that where stupid at point that think Gt4 is exactly as real life, i wouldnt even talk to him anymore

If you don't share your fruit snack gummies, I won't be your friend anymore

Quote from AndroidXP :

I think BBT meant that post.

Actually I never saw that post. Thanks for the link though that was an interesting read.

Sorry for being a dummy and thinking back before last April :doh:

Hehehe, nothing to be sorry for! Every time I think back, it amazes me how long we actually have those better physics now. It feels like such a short time, but then I realize they're there since more than half a year already.

Besides that, any question or discussion that gives me a reason to link back to these old investigations and discoveries is fine by me . Many new members seem to be uneducated about how sophisticated LFS really is, so bringing these old threads back to attention every now and then is definitely not a bad thing. Speaking of advertising LFS' beauty, have you seen the new F9/Tyre explanation yet?

I hadn't seen the latest diagram; I saw the first one (I think FXO / BL1?) and was as thoroughly impressed then as I am with that one! Beauteous! (don't care if that's not a word; it's MY word)

I think the LFS WIKI should somehow be forced upon anyone who runs LFS.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Speaking of advertising LFS' beauty, have you seen the new F9/Tyre explanation yet?

Erm, worn out and hot tires from badly set up tires at the start? I don't think so...

Quote from bbman :

Erm, worn out and hot tires from badly set up tires at the start? I don't think so...

he's using the pre-heated pre-worn tyre hack

Quote from bbman :

Erm, worn out and hot tires from badly set up tires at the start? I don't think so...

Yeah I know, that was actually one of my first thoughts when I started making that picture, but I was too lazy to think of a different setup



And to get this back on topic: LFS rules, GT4 sucks. :munching_

Had another talk with the chap today at the kart-track. This proved to me that the guy really does have no clue illepall
He told me he would rather have a RWD car than a FWD car, for safety reasons. As he continued his senile story, I became more and more confused, as he claimed that oversteering is much safer, and easier to control than understeer. He followed this up by saying that only beginner-drivers can't catch a slide in time, and that he had plenty of experience in driving.

This is a guy without his own car we're talking about, whose never had his own car, and has only driven a handful of cars of friends every once in a while after getting his license, roughly three years ago.

I am officially stumped.

He looked at me funny when I claimed that during acceleration, the weight of the car shifts to the back. He told me the engine of the car is in the front, so that's where the weight is at, all the time.

I almost turned into a vegetable right there. :faint:

lol 3 years? that's not very long at all, my mate has had his license for 11 years, and yes just like that other guy, had only been driving family members' cars and work cars, but now he owns his own car (FWD) which tbh I'd prefer over a RWD car.... man i would much rather be in an understeer moment than oversteer....

There is a (slight) point in his argument: When you take a corner too quick (public road speaking), you can make it through a turn in a oversteer situation (although I fear most would lose it in the sudden moment when the tires grip again, thus turn out of the turn again and ditch it anyway), whereas the understeery car will plough out of the corner, no matter what... You can't control understeer once it happened, you can only lift off and pray that the front tires will gain grip soon enough... But you can control oversteer (hold the slide)... Granted, you should never get that reaction from your car, or you clearly made something wrong...

Any RWD production car will understeer unless you (pretty much intentionally) induce oversteer anyway. The average dolt comming into a corner too hot will understeer in any normal RWD regardless. Manufacturers intentionally build understeer into production vehicles for - (dramatic pause) Safety Reasons(TM).

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Any RWD production car will understeer unless you (pretty much intentionally) induce oversteer anyway. The average dolt comming into a corner too hot will understeer in any normal RWD regardless. Manufacturers intentionally build understeer into production vehicles for - (dramatic pause) Safety Reasons(TM).

"nod" =)

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Any RWD production car will understeer unless you (pretty much intentionally) induce oversteer anyway. The average dolt comming into a corner too hot will understeer in any normal RWD regardless. Manufacturers intentionally build understeer into production vehicles for - (dramatic pause) Safety Reasons(TM).

True, makes lot of trouble as to fix their awful flaws of their suspension design it takes lot of time and money until can get them to work even somehow reasonable way

Same goes for emission systems and other things made to please a common man, like sound proofing, why on earth one would like to have such weight in car, no that is needed to be removed

You know what, I smelling bit of RWD vs FWD thing being quite near, that is one fearsome creature which should be avoided as well as possible

Quote from bbman :

There is a (slight) point in his argument: When you take a corner too quick (public road speaking), you can make it through a turn in a oversteer situation (although I fear most would lose it in the sudden moment when the tires grip again, thus turn out of the turn again and ditch it anyway), whereas the understeery car will plough out of the corner, no matter what... You can't control understeer once it happened, you can only lift off and pray that the front tires will gain grip soon enough... But you can control oversteer (hold the slide)... Granted, you should never get that reaction from your car, or you clearly made something wrong...

Isn't it just a rather simple operation of braking to shift the weight to the front tires again?
I don't see my mother/father/grandmother/anyone I know except maybe my brother actually holding a slide anyway. Cars are manufactured to understeer (as said) for a very good reason.

Either way, you've really done it if you are somehow understeering so much that shit goes really wrong. Nothing you'd generally do on public roads.

No, braking is not going to help you, it's going to make things worse. The only thing you can do is get off the throttle, reduce amount of steer and hope for the best. Handbrake appliance might help in some situations, but only if you know exactly what's going to happen.

I agree with bbman though, with an oversteering car you can at least do *something* if you're skilled enough, but the overall safety benefits of understeer are undeniable. And even if you lose control and crash, with understeer you'll at least have a good chance that there will be a big block of metal between you and whatever you hit, rather than the door which you can already dent by leaning against it.

Quote from AndroidXP :

No, braking is not going to help you, it's going to make things worse. The only thing you can do is get off the throttle, reduce amount of steer and hope for the best. Handbrake appliance might help in some situations, but only if you know exactly what's going to happen.

I agree with bbman though, with an oversteering car you can at least do *something* if you're skilled enough, but the overall safety benefits of understeer are undeniable. And even if you lose control and crash, with understeer you'll at least have a good chance that there will be a big block of metal between you and whatever you hit, rather than the door which you can already dent by leaning against it.

Fair enough, but I still fail to see how you can get yourself into so much trouble with understeer alone, on a public road. I may not know everything, but I do know that it should take a lot to get a car to understeer enough to cause a real danger to the driver, at least in normal road conditions, and when not racing on a real track.

Either way, imho if you are willing to push a car far enough to induce either massive over, or understeer, you should be able to LFB or countersteer. It goes both ways, if you are capable enough to control a slide, then you _should_ be capable enough to LFB.

Yes, understeer is much safer in most of the time, it's just that in theory you have more options while oversteering, but applied to the general public and disregarding special situations, oversteer is just going to cause more and more severe accidents.

And "so much trouble with understeer" is most certainly referring to non-ideal road conditions such as rain (to a lesser extent), mud/dirt, snow and ice. On a normal dry tarmac road people usually don't drive nearly fast enough to get any problems from under-/oversteer at all.

Quote from JTbo :

You know what, I smelling bit of RWD vs FWD thing being quite near, that is one fearsome creature which should be avoided as well as possible

Personally I think FWD cars make sense for small economical low power cars. Beinjg FWD increases cabin space, fuel economy and reduces manufacturing costs. I can't actually think of any real advantage of making them RWD.

The other totally pointless creation are the modern, heavy FWD hot hatches. A 220bhp FWD car has a fundamental flaw and a 1600kg 'small' sporty car has another one...

Quote from ajp71 :

Personally I think FWD cars make sense for small economical low power cars. Beinjg FWD increases cabin space, fuel economy and reduces manufacturing costs. I can't actually think of any real advantage of making them RWD.

The other totally pointless creation are the modern, heavy FWD hot hatches. A 220bhp FWD car has a fundamental flaw and a 1600kg 'small' sporty car has another one...

AAaahhhahhahaaa :hihi:don't push it, you know how easily that creature lights up