Quote from underthesky :

I Thought this thread was about the new patch and its compability? I was wrong obvioysly,

No, you weren't. The question was answered about 3 times before, by Scawen and by others though.

Quote from Test Patch Forum Rules :

YOU MUST : Read the first post before installing any TEST patch.

It's VERY important to read the announcement post of any patch before installing it. If you don't know what's been added to the patch, there's no way you can know what you are testing. And this will save you writing posts about things we already know. And PLEASE read the whole thread before posting. We are trying to keep the test patch threads short and to the point. We do not want multiple reports of the same bug, or suggestions that have already been made.

EDIT: To add something constructive to this post, I think that the sound needs to be louder on lift off, ie. say you're going at 5500rpm and you lift. The sound should be different to the sound you get when you lift at 7000rpm and you allow revs to drop to 5500. I'd like to hear the engine choking on itself as its no longer feeding on the squirrels and kittens in the (squirrel? ) tank, and the remaining bones in the pistons being shattered to pieces. Ok, that last sentence was overdoing the violence thing but you get the point .

EDIT2: I think the LX4 should sound somewhat like this, albeit a bit less meaty (as the car in the video has some 70hp more): http://youtube.com/watch?v=TE2bPmNokFU

Imho, LFS has sounded pretty good on lower revs but the problem is the higher revs, especially the point just before upshift. This was the biggest problem with the FO8 (before U32). Just by listening to the sound I couldn't tell when to upshift, I had to completely rely on the shift light. What I was expecting the sound patch to concentrate on was mainly the high-revs stuff. I have always thought that what makes LFS sound "bad" is the higher revs stuff and I was a bit disappointed that most effort was put to change the sounds to something else and leaving the core of the problem untouched.

If we go into technical stuff, I guess LFS already does pretty well the basic engine sound related stuff which have big effects on the sound. Like the firing order, engine size and engine type. What it doesn't do is all the mechanic noises coming from engine and the combustion sound created inside the engine when the fuel burns and as a result the shockwaves travel in the air through the manifolds finally exiting the exhaust pipes. There is not enough variation. In real life, every piston stroke sounds a bit different, the fuel burns slightly differently every time and the result is more variable and "wandering" instead of being static sound played at exactly certain frequency. Different types of engines have special characteristics as well. And not leaving out the obvious, valves, valves per cylinder, fuel injection or carburetor, manifolds materials and the level of the engine tuning. These all need to be chosen before you can start creating the sounds. Just making it sounds like inline-4 without turbo won't make it achievable if you are using any kind of dynamic synthetised system, like in LFS. It just won't work and you can hear this in the BF1 in U32.

As I listened Todd's engine sound sample, my first thoughts were quite similar to what tweaker said. Too metallic and "I only hear distortion and and too much static treble". Couldn't agree more. It sounds nice and all but it doesn't sound much like sitting inside a real car. I'm not sure whether Scawen was joking about adding the window opening as a setup option but imho there's much more to it. (I'd like to see the chance of opening the windows on the quieter cars.) The car structure and padding (the FZ50 is obviously more quiet at 60mph than the XFG for example) play major part with these. Are you seeing where I'm going with this? Car classes. Car types, more specifically speaking, the level of race prepping done to the car. Is it stock, only competition equipment being driver's helmets and overalls? Is it slightly tuned road legal car with possibly steel manifolds (not cast iron), race seats (originals replaced), engine tweaked (more high power instead of low rev torque). Does it have rollcage. Stripped interiors? These have quite noticable effect on how the car sounds, how and what you hear sitting inside it. Is the car new or old? What kind of brakes it has?

And it should not be all about engine and drivetrain. The addition of drivetrain whines was a good thing but as said it doesn't sound too good. Take the UF1 for example. An old car with no sound proofing. The engine and gearbox are not very well "separated" from the cockpit meaning that a lot vibrations and resonance gets through. At 40mph the dash starts shaking. At 50mph the wind noise is unbearable and at 60mph the steering wheel shakes, the seat vibrates, the suspensions rattles and squeeks as you go over bumps. It feels like the car is ready to take off. Even the slightest bump makes a sound and you can hear it. Driving a real car at high speeds feels so totally different because you have millions of different sounds giving you information and distracting you at the same time. Every time you go over a kerb or lift one tire opff the ground you hear a sound. And it is a scary sound. I know adding these additional sounds is hard and impossible even in compatible patch, but not impossible with time and commiment.

Also the sound that you hear when you collide with another car is wrong. The best crash sound is imho in Nascar 2003. I have been in real accident and the sound you hear in N2003 is spot on. Head-on collision with another car. It is not a "shriek". Also the car-tirewall collision sounds are way off. It is not a "klonk".

One thing about the transmission whines. There is always play on the transmission. This is easily heard when traveling at slow speeds and you lift your foot off the throttle and the car kind of slows down with hesitation. Also the frequency of the transmission whine is way too high. The UFR sounds at 120kph like the XRR should sound at 200kph. At low revs and 2nd gear speeds the transmission whine should have a lot lower frequency and they should be more louder than they are. Also there is no transmission whine in the UF1. This car should defenately have transmission whine.

What about brake squeel, suspension sounds and backfiring? Please take your time and work with the sounds more. They are not good.

i think that it was already said here, but...

the problem is that the sounds are too much "muffled", not only in the engine sounds, but every sound related to the car is muffled

thats why skids and crash sounds are too low, looks like the entire LFS sounds have only one channel, so if you change only one sound you change all of them together

i think thats not a hard thing to fix, i belive that this test patch was just to see how we will react with the new sounds, our feedback will help scawen to put the sounds on the right way

that is why important to not spam here saying things like " the sound is bad" "the bf1 is crappy"...

let's say something construtive to help the development of the sounds

sorry for the crap english hehehe

Just gave U32 a try the other day - sound was a major reason for me to try.

The improvemts on the sound system is defenatly a step in the right direction... more details.. mmm... me likes

But... (yeah, big surprice)
Only been driving in FZR.. and the sound, in all seriousnes, makes me sleepy.

I'm looking forward for way more brutal sounds. My definition of race car sounds is that they sound like something terrible is about to happen.. everything is going to brake apart and you're going to be in eeeeevil pain! .. meh

Actually.. ur allready in pain

The FZR sounded smooth.. I don't want to be forced into a helmet - you can drive race cars without helmets, you know .. maybe not fast.. but still :P

And oh.. one thing I looooove about car sounds is - well, not sure how to explain it - when the revs gets disturbed by the suspensions/weight transfer (revs gets sounds un-even/jumpy for a bit) - hope this will be add at one point

Ciaaaaaooooooooooo........*crash*

Quote from Hurts2bStock :

This was posted on another thread by moonclaw

That shows how intense the sound can be in an open cockpit

well , but there is wind that makes sum bassy noise, i think lfs shouldn't go so intense, it just aint lfs anymore... imo!

I must say i like the new engine sound and gear whine sound, but now even with engine volume boost and all other sounds (except skid volume) turned all the way down, i still cant hear the skid loud enough although it's turned up to the max.
it lures me into thinking i'm driving clean when i'm not.
is it just me?
average pat

Quote from patrese :

I must say i like the new engine sound and gear whine sound, but now even with engine volume boost and all other sounds (except skid volume) turned all the way down, i still cant hear the skid loud enough although it's turned up to the max.
it lures me into thinking i'm driving clean when i'm not.
is it just me?
average pat

READ THE THREAD BEFORE POSTING AGAIN (AND AGAIN) THE SAME

todd u are well known for taking every oportunity to showcase your work and point us to the commercial website. im fine with that since obviously the mods never noticed thats what u do in this forum for years.
but taking the test patch and showcasing your synth engine... man... doesnt really matter what deaf axus begs you to do. its nowhere near the quality of lfs and just killed off my ears with fatality move.
stop hyping what u never did and please stop hyping yaaself and leading a few clown to post everywhere about you. its not cool and makes u look less talented than what u may be. its been 3 years with avis that look worse than racer. feel free to post cool stuff on the offtopic section if u really care.
and please stop acting as mr bridgestone who is married to mrs yokohama.

Quote from TRM.13 :

READ THE THREAD BEFORE POSTING AGAIN (AND AGAIN) THE SAME

Hey man, chill. It's his(her) first post, you're turning him(her) away from here illepall

For those who haven't read it before, you may find this of interest.

Hi

I have upgraded [CD] ConeDodgersRacing 1, 2 and 3 to U32 this morning and several racers, including myself are getting a warning.

"Your skin cannot be found at www.lfsworld.net"

Yet the skin can be seen by other players and is present on LFSW

Several have tried uploading the skin again but it make no difference

The message comes up after few seconds when you go on track, however it does not seem to be everyone.

Quote from birder :

Hi

I have upgraded [CD] ConeDodgersRacing 1, 2 and 3 to U32 this morning and several racers, including myself are getting a warning.

"Your skin cannot be found at www.lfsworld.net"

Well that's strange. I don't deny that it could possibly be related to U32 but I can't see any way it could have anything to do with the host - because skin downloading isn't done via the host.

It's more likely to be a temporary failure of the LFS web server, but... anything's possible. Please post again if it keeps happening.

Quote from TRM.13 :

Moderators, please do something! This thread is corrupted with Spam and shit like "sound is bad"

Scawen will close the thread if we don't care it

Quote from Andreas Grauel :

Why cant people read the thread before posting anything?

Please some moderater delete all the spam!

Quote from TRM.13 :

READ THE THREAD BEFORE POSTING AGAIN (AND AGAIN) THE SAME

Erm... NO!

Moderators are thankfully doing nothing, this is a public forum at which Scawen himself has said basically "discuss". So some people repeat the same thing, so what..? I havent really had my say on things yet, but when I do Im sure I'll be repeating what others have said. If it gets too much and Scawen closes the thread, guess what... Thats life, deal with it. Dont you think we have already has SO MUCH since April...

Quote from KiDCoDEa :

todd u are well known for taking every oportunity to showcase your work and point us to the commercial website. im fine with that since obviously the mods never noticed thats what u do in this forum for years.
but taking the test patch and showcasing your synth engine... man... doesnt really matter what deaf axus begs you to do. its nowhere near the quality of lfs and just killed off my ears with fatality move.
stop hyping what u never did and please stop hyping yaaself and leading a few clown to post everywhere about you. its not cool and makes u look less talented than what u may be. its been 3 years with avis that look worse than racer. feel free to post cool stuff on the offtopic section if u really care.
and please stop acting as mr bridgestone who is married to mrs yokohama.

Kid, kindly stop trolling around here like you own the place. Its getting unbearable lately. Make yourself another fake RSC account and go troll there if you need to get it out somewhere. You're also being a presumptuous moron and showing no-one respect. Your argument about a commercial site is inherently backward because its always something hosted on the site and not a direct link to the site. And its not of something for sale at the site in the first place.

With regards to whether what he said has a place in this thread, that depends entirely on his intentions with it. I've heard a car with exhausts going straight to the side of the car (no muffler etc), and its a pretty unbearable and similar noise. Simulate the rest of the exhaust, add the actual engine sounds, transmission whine and what have you and you have some awesome sound.

Also, if you're gonna type something like your above post, please make sure its properly understandable.

:munching_

Quote from mkinnov8 :

Moderators are thankfully doing nothing, this is a public forum at which Scawen himself has said basically "discuss". So some people repeat the same thing, so what..? I havent really had my say on things yet, but when I do Im sure I'll be repeating what others have said. If it gets too much and Scawen closes the thread, guess what... Thats life, deal with it. Dont you think we have already has SO MUCH since April...

Shouldn't the rules concern everyone? I think no-one should have any special privileges in here. Rules quite clearly says that these threads should be read before posting to them.

I really like the new sounds.....apart from the BF1! It's about an octave or two too low. It's great that there is some bass there (anyone who's heard an F1 car IRL will know what I'm talking about), but there needs to be another layer on top. As it is, it sounds like it's revving lower than the F08!

The 4cyl cars are great IMO. Far, far more realistic than before. 8k rpm actually sounds like it should (listen to the numerous Civic or Integra Type R videos on YouTube).

A step in the right direction IMHO

I read the whole thread and I still think my opinion will bring something new so here I am. On top of what everybody said about audio, I think that another problem is that:

At certain speed/rpm... you get your ears resonating/pulsating with the sound. For example, take the UF GTR in 3rd speed, when accelerating around 8000/9000 rpm, my ears are like exploding. This happens on many other cars, mainly near the limiter of the car.

This is very unpleasing. I only saw one or two people more or less complaining about this but not in a very precise way. I'm no audio expert but I guess this is due to the sound being too perfect/clean as some people described it.

FYI, I have an old 5.1 cambridge soundworks. I didn't touch any sound levels/settings in lfs and I find it good by default, I can hear the tyres screeching and so on, it's just a bit harder.

Keep up the great work Scawen & co,
Thank you,
YYota

I think we should start our discussion about sound in LFS from the question
"What engine elements are making THE BASIC engine sound in LFS".
Is it only a sound of cylinder stroke, or maybe the valves and cams are making the noise?
Is this stroke sound always the same, or maybe it changes during load changes?
Maybe there should be few different strokes to play, ordered by the engine load.

Next thing to mention is stroke timing.
As you know we can have earlier/late stoke, which also should be considerated.
Next we can think about slight variations in the low revs. Which will add more reality.

But we are coming more and more into combustion cycle simulation. Maybe it is the key point?

We all know that the LFS engine sound is not good when going up the revs.
What causes the sound to be wilder in RL? Is it only louder detonation,
or maybe valves and cams are working faster and faster producing a lot of additional noise.
From it there is only one step to Honda VTEC technology simulation.

Maybe the lack of simulation in one of the above elements
is the point of unnatural sound representation.



BTW.
The engine load transferred by the clutch is not properly simulated.
Maybe it is causing by the bugs in clutch simulation, but for me load changes during changing gears are too rapid.
When clutch is re-engaged, engine revs are quickly changed, without transition.
There is no clutch slip, or the slip is too low. In my car when I drop clutch,
the revs are not simply switching into different value, but they are noticeably increasing.

Quote from mantis9 :

To add to this and the few earlier comments, at the end of the race, with the map shown on the right, once the leader crosses the finish line the map disappears....

I have since realised that if you press Ctrl + Tab to hide the results the map comes back, so this is not a problem for me any more

Quote from TRM.13 :

READ THE THREAD BEFORE POSTING AGAIN (AND AGAIN) THE SAME

i saw 1 post similar, but not the same.
besides it could have been an isolated case not reflecting an average.
if you are bored of the same, then skip it, ignore it, and dont go through the hassle of replying in a most unhelpful and arrogant manner.
there!

Quote from askoff :

Shouldn't the rules concern everyone? I think no-one should have any special privileges in here. Rules quite clearly says that these threads should be read before posting to them.

Yes of course, but there is also something called Freedom of Speech. People WILL post what they want to wherever they want to. Tho I wouldnt consider repeating what someone else says Spam. For me, Spam are post with no content except an emoticon.

Another remark I'd like to make is that in exterior views, again, the gear whine is probably a little too loud - usually exterior noises are dominated by the sounds emmited by the exhaust pipe (or whatever serves as one).

Also, to illustrate my previous post's point about some of the "microsounds" being still present here's a sample of the FXR as I hear it when EQed and compressed (this is recorded live - just using my SBLive's DSP to apply the effects) - I split the original LFS soundstream to two layers boosting the high freqs on the one while cutting all others, changing the dynamic range on the second by expanding middle freqs (making it sort of raspy/aggressive) and cutting out the low freqs and then I mixed the mix of the two back with the original at the end a rather drastic compressor is applied and that ties it all in together. Ofcourse having control on the synth wouldn't really need the eq splitting mumbo jumbo, but a compression-like effect is pretty CPU-friendly to apply postsynth and it can add some life to it.

EDIT:
Oh, and now that I played around a little more and paid more attention to the dump valve (as due to the above EQing it's more prominent), would it be realistic to have it's amplitude modulated by a square wave to simulate the air gushing through the fan? (or this not a "standard"/realistic sound?)

Quote from Hyperactive :

Imho, LFS has sounded pretty good on lower revs but the problem is the higher revs, especially the point just before upshift. This was the biggest problem with the FO8 (before U32). Just by listening to the sound I couldn't tell when to upshift, I had to completely rely on the shift light. What I was expecting the sound patch to concentrate on was mainly the high-revs stuff. I have always thought that what makes LFS sound "bad" is the higher revs stuff and I was a bit disappointed that most effort was put to change the sounds to something else and leaving the core of the problem untouched.

If we go into technical stuff, I guess LFS already does pretty well the basic engine sound related stuff which have big effects on the sound. Like the firing order, engine size and engine type. What it doesn't do is all the mechanic noises coming from engine and the combustion sound created inside the engine when the fuel burns and as a result the shockwaves travel in the air through the manifolds finally exiting the exhaust pipes. There is not enough variation. In real life, every piston stroke sounds a bit different, the fuel burns slightly differently every time and the result is more variable and "wandering" instead of being static sound played at exactly certain frequency. Different types of engines have special characteristics as well. And not leaving out the obvious, valves, valves per cylinder, fuel injection or carburetor, manifolds materials and the level of the engine tuning. These all need to be chosen before you can start creating the sounds. Just making it sounds like inline-4 without turbo won't make it achievable if you are using any kind of dynamic synthetised system, like in LFS. It just won't work and you can hear this in the BF1 in U32.

As I listened Todd's engine sound sample, my first thoughts were quite similar to what tweaker said. Too metallic and "I only hear distortion and and too much static treble". Couldn't agree more. It sounds nice and all but it doesn't sound much like sitting inside a real car. I'm not sure whether Scawen was joking about adding the window opening as a setup option but imho there's much more to it. (I'd like to see the chance of opening the windows on the quieter cars.) The car structure and padding (the FZ50 is obviously more quiet at 60mph than the XFG for example) play major part with these. Are you seeing where I'm going with this? Car classes. Car types, more specifically speaking, the level of race prepping done to the car. Is it stock, only competition equipment being driver's helmets and overalls? Is it slightly tuned road legal car with possibly steel manifolds (not cast iron), race seats (originals replaced), engine tweaked (more high power instead of low rev torque). Does it have rollcage. Stripped interiors? These have quite noticable effect on how the car sounds, how and what you hear sitting inside it. Is the car new or old? What kind of brakes it has?

And it should not be all about engine and drivetrain. The addition of drivetrain whines was a good thing but as said it doesn't sound too good. Take the UF1 for example. An old car with no sound proofing. The engine and gearbox are not very well "separated" from the cockpit meaning that a lot vibrations and resonance gets through. At 40mph the dash starts shaking. At 50mph the wind noise is unbearable and at 60mph the steering wheel shakes, the seat vibrates, the suspensions rattles and squeeks as you go over bumps. It feels like the car is ready to take off. Even the slightest bump makes a sound and you can hear it. Driving a real car at high speeds feels so totally different because you have millions of different sounds giving you information and distracting you at the same time. Every time you go over a kerb or lift one tire opff the ground you hear a sound. And it is a scary sound. I know adding these additional sounds is hard and impossible even in compatible patch, but not impossible with time and commiment.

Also the sound that you hear when you collide with another car is wrong. The best crash sound is imho in Nascar 2003. I have been in real accident and the sound you hear in N2003 is spot on. Head-on collision with another car. It is not a "shriek". Also the car-tirewall collision sounds are way off. It is not a "klonk".

One thing about the transmission whines. There is always play on the transmission. This is easily heard when traveling at slow speeds and you lift your foot off the throttle and the car kind of slows down with hesitation. Also the frequency of the transmission whine is way too high. The UFR sounds at 120kph like the XRR should sound at 200kph. At low revs and 2nd gear speeds the transmission whine should have a lot lower frequency and they should be more louder than they are. Also there is no transmission whine in the UF1. This car should defenately have transmission whine.

What about brake squeel, suspension sounds and backfiring? Please take your time and work with the sounds more. They are not good.

I second this quote by hyperactive. I enjoy the new sounds now that I have had enough time to listen to every car around the track but there is still plenty missing. A good step in the right direction though

Quote from Hyperactive :

Imho, LFS has sounded pretty good on lower revs but the problem is the higher revs, especially the point just before upshift. This was the biggest problem with the FO8 (before U32). Just by listening to the sound I couldn't tell when to upshift, I had to completely rely on the shift light. What I was expecting the sound patch to concentrate on was mainly the high-revs stuff. I have always thought that what makes LFS sound "bad" is the higher revs stuff and I was a bit disappointed that most effort was put to change the sounds to something else and leaving the core of the problem untouched.

Yes you are right there, in LFS I have to rely on the shift light. Im my real car and on the motorcycle I use the sound of the engine more then the tach, hell my bike does not even have a tach. When you take a stock engine and open up the intake and exhaust the engine starts to take on a primal sound. The rumble grows as the engien rises and as you aproach the point of max power it starts to get rather dirty and chaotic. That is the audio key that its time to shift and like Hyperactive was saying that is whats missing in LFS.