Quote from Jertje :

I've tried searching for this particular question, but I couldn't seem to locate any answers, but I do realise that there is a library full of threads on the subject, so my sincere apologies if this has been covered before in one of them.

Anyway, here is my question:

Which is the ''correct'' order of the heel-toe technique?

1. Brake.
2. Disengage clutch.
3. Blip throttle.
4. Shift down.
5. Engage (release) clutch.

or

1. Brake.
2. Disengage clutch.
3. Shift down.
4. Blip throttle.
5. Engage (release) clutch.

As you may notice, #3 and #4 are switched in the last order.

Is there an important difference in how the car responds when using these different orders, or is it exactly the same? If any, what are the benefits/downsides of either of these orders?

Thanks in advance for your replies

I do the second one

H&T is used to lessen the engine braking 'shock' when you bring the clutch back up while braking and downshifting at the same time. so it has to be the second one. you can also use a little (H&T)throttle if you lock a (driven) wheel as this means you don't have to come off the brakes again.

Btw the OP has confused dis/engage:
- Engage clutch = push clutch in
- Disengage = release clutch

But..
I shift down and blip simultaneously, maybe I'd do it differently if I had a clutch pedal but even then I'd probably be thinking:

1. Brake
2. Clutch + shift down + blip (in a single "tap" of each)
3. Release clutch
4. Step off the brakes etc.

Actually, should #3 and #4 be done at the same time? You would be blipping the throttle AS you move the shifter into the lower gear, then engaging the clutch.

Isn't the whole idea of heel-toe'ing to prevent the driven wheels from locking (while shifting down, hence using engine braking)? If this is the case, as long as you blip the throttle when the clutch is in, whatever else you do is really irrelevant unless you lose control?

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

Btw the OP has confused dis/engage:
- Engage clutch = push clutch in
- Disengage = release clutch

I don't believe I was confused when I wrote it.

Quote from Wikipedia :

No pressure on the pedal means that the clutch plates are engaged (driving), while depressing the pedal will disengage the clutch plates, allowing the driver to shift gears.

I see your point, /me blaims Captain Morgan I must say it depends whether you are talking about the clutch plates themselves, or the clutch pedal (since they have an inverse relation ) Generally, I'd take any reference to the clutch as reference to the pedal, not the plates :S But there you go..

When all else fails a little video will help guide you.

Sorry I don't have Mark Skaife doing it around Bathurst...so you have to settle for Todd Kelly
http://www.audiworld.members.w ... Panorama_lap_footwell.wmv

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

I see your point, /me blaims Captain Morgan I must say it depends whether you are talking about the clutch plates themselves, or the clutch pedal (since they have an inverse relation ) Generally, I'd take any reference to the clutch as reference to the pedal, not the plates :S But there you go..

Yeah, but the term depressing usually goes for pedals, and engaging sounds more technically-ish
Heck what do I know, I'm not a mechanic ;D

Quote from der_jackal :

When all else fails a little video will help guide you.

Sorry I don't have Mark Skaife doing it around Bathurst...so you have to settle for Todd Kelly
http://www.audiworld.members.w ... Panorama_lap_footwell.wmv

Great video, thanks for posting

Quote from Shotglass :

no you dont

Man, what's with all the Kev-bashing lately? Kev, I promise to try to get out on track more often so there's someone you can beat.

Quote from jtr99 :

Man, what's with all the Kev-bashing lately?

What else is Kev good for? I thought that is why he was around .

Hehehehehe!

Quote from jtr99 :

Man, what's with all the Kev-bashing lately?

'tis the season

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I bet I can still beat Mike here, but he stays away from servers I'm racing on so his kids don't have to see him cry.

To be honest about it, every time you've seen me on the servers, I was letting my 6 year old little girl race. So, that's nice that you're sooooo proud of beating a 6 year old!

Next time I'll have to put the 3 year old on. Then you can really talk it up to your buds in the pub, hehehe.

Quote from der_jackal :

When all else fails a little video will help guide you.

Sorry I don't have Mark Skaife doing it around Bathurst...so you have to settle for Todd Kelly
http://www.audiworld.members.w ... Panorama_lap_footwell.wmv

Nice vid, but why does he tap the brake on the straights? Is it to get the brakes warmed up a bit?
He has quite some thottle travel btw

Quote from thisnameistaken :

That's only because she's faster than you.

Nah, not faster. She just uses a technique that I disapprove of.

Quoted from March 06 in the "Are you a sim racing dad?" thread...

Quote from mrodgers :

Hey, sim racing dad here (and the first response)! My daughter sits on her PC (the old one) and plays offline with S1h using the old Thrustmaster T2 while I race online. S2 won't run on her computer.

I was in a race Sunday night trying to catch 2nd place I think. She stood behind me instructing me on what I should do. "Just go faster dad, that's what I do. Then when you catch him, just turn the wheel and you'll run into him." LOL, I'm bringing up a future wrecker .

disclaimer: I do not condone this behavior of my children .

Quote from mikey_G :

Nice vid, but why does he tap the brake on the straights? Is it to get the brakes warmed up a bit?
He has quite some thottle travel btw

Yup, there's a light tap just prior to entering the braking zone, but it is to make sure the pads are snug and close to the rotor surface.

Quote from der_jackal :

Yup, there's a light tap just prior to entering the braking zone, but it is to make sure the pads are snug and close to the rotor surface.

Still dont really understand. Does this maneuver have a name, so I can google it or something?

Quote from mikey_G :

Still dont really understand. Does this maneuver have a name, so I can google it or something?

Not really...it's just something they do, I wish I had tivo'd some of last year's American LeMans series. They showed a full lap of MidOhio with a Porsche driver doing the same thing, and they gave a really great explanation of why he was doing it in some areas where loading the suspension wasn't really required (which is why you would normally do it on a long straight. Big bump you tend to trail brake to load the suspension so you keep the car settled *g*).

Easiest way to think of it is; The pads and pistons are vibrated, shoved and pushed around while racing. The pads in those V8 Supercars "float" in the caliper so they can be changed on the fly (required in some races) and as such they can be pushed back farther from the rotor face or move around just ever so slightly to where they aren't "true" to the rotor face.

What that technique does is just pushes the pistons in the caliper lightly forward, seats the pads to give maximum coverage and ensures the whole braking system is primed to work as they need it.

Quote from der_jackal :

Not really...it's just something they do, I wish I had tivo'd some of last year's American LeMans series. They showed a full lap of MidOhio with a Porsche driver doing the same thing, and they gave a really great explanation of why he was doing it in some areas where loading the suspension wasn't really required (which is why you would normally do it on a long straight. Big bump you tend to trail brake to load the suspension so you keep the car settled *g*).

Easiest way to think of it is; The pads and pistons are vibrated, shoved and pushed around while racing. The pads in those V8 Supercars "float" in the caliper so they can be changed on the fly (required in some races) and as such they can be pushed back farther from the rotor face or move around just ever so slightly to where they aren't "true" to the rotor face.

What that technique does is just pushes the pistons in the caliper lightly forward, seats the pads to give maximum coverage and ensures the whole braking system is primed to work as they need it.

Tis true, I've heard many a great driver mention the tinest squeeze of the brake pedal to close up the pad/disc clearence to allow a better bite and feel without grabbing when they get to the braking zone proper.

OMG, an American who knows correct driving techniques! Whatever next? *runs away*

Quote from tristancliffe :

The G25 is rubbish for heel and toeing anyway, as the pedals are too far apart and positioned badly. In a real car you have the throttle 'up' position roughtly in line with 50% braking, so that when braking hard your foot finds it easy to blip the throttle. The G25 has both pedals in the same plane when 'up', so making your foot have to contort to heel/toe. Add into that a soft brake pedal (limitation of hardware at a sensible cost), and a HUGE gap between brake and throttle, means it's almost impossible to do without a lot of practice. I don't bother anymore most of the time, and I've been heel&toeing real cars daily (automatically) for more than 8 years.

What's wrong with you have you got baby feet or something, the pedals are a shit load closer than any car I use for bliping the throttle on down shifting, and I have been doing it a lot longer than you, as I have been driving for twenty years man. I do understand your gripe about the brake to throttle position it's not ideal but still very simple to do with the G25.
I have been left foot braking for so long in sim racing it just takes a bit of time to get used to the different pressure needed with your right foot.

Quote from der_jackal :

What that technique does is just pushes the pistons in the caliper lightly forward, seats the pads to give maximum coverage and ensures the whole braking system is primed to work as they need it.

Good explanation there, now I FINALLY understand what that move is for... been watching Best Motoring videos for years and always see those Japanese tapping the brakes slightly before reaching the braking zone, never found out what it is simply cause I have no idea what to type in Google

Quote from der_jackal :

Not really...it's just something they do, I wish I had tivo'd some of last year's American LeMans series. They showed a full lap of MidOhio with a Porsche driver doing the same thing, and they gave a really great explanation of why he was doing it in some areas where loading the suspension wasn't really required (which is why you would normally do it on a long straight. Big bump you tend to trail brake to load the suspension so you keep the car settled *g*).

Easiest way to think of it is; The pads and pistons are vibrated, shoved and pushed around while racing. The pads in those V8 Supercars "float" in the caliper so they can be changed on the fly (required in some races) and as such they can be pushed back farther from the rotor face or move around just ever so slightly to where they aren't "true" to the rotor face.

What that technique does is just pushes the pistons in the caliper lightly forward, seats the pads to give maximum coverage and ensures the whole braking system is primed to work as they need it.

Thanks for the great explanation, I finally got it now

btw, some curiosity, do the braking lights light up because of this?

Probably not or they are in the threshold of just lighting up.

Quote from spankmeyer :

Probably not or they are in the threshold of just lighting up.

Actually they do in the case of the V8 Supercars. If I have any time this week I'll pull a chase camera shot and you can see where they just blip the brake lights for a second as they tap the brake pedal.

Quote from tristancliffe :

OMG, an American who knows correct driving techniques! Whatever next? *runs away*

*shakes fist*

WHY I OUGHTTA......