The online racing simulator
National Auto Sport Association Embraces Sanctioned Sim Racing With Race2play
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(229 posts, started )
#201 - Gunn
Quote from Mister2zx3 : After reading the pre-edit ( Why has no one posted this again here? why is it not being kept in the open, like it was originally intended when typed up and posted? )..

Tim's post was apparently made in anger and frustration, reposting it would generate more anger and frustration and I think the conversation can survive without it. He retracted his post, I think we should let sleeping dogs lie.

To recap the findings of my own research into R2P, here's a list of points:

- R2P would aid LFS by giving the sim more exposure, especially to the US market. It would also provide more LFS servers in the US which is something that many US-based LFS players might welcome. So, the inclusion of LFS in the R2P project would most likely generate additional sales of S2 licenses simply by way of exposure and would perhaps generate some additional online LFS activity, at least in the US region.

- R2P is affiliated (they say "sanctioned-by") with NASA, and uses a tailor made version of the NASA rules applied to all sim racing events that R2P encompasses. Apart from some prizes, R2P claim that success in the sim racing events they host could count towards a real racing license (probably useful to US residents only).
Other services that R2P provide include hosting of blogs etc.
R2P provide race stewards for events and they do all of the clerking and make the decisions on penalties etc.

- The R2P project has not been designed with LFS in mind. There are various aspects of R2P which do not cater to certain fundamental features of LFS and any user of LFS might identify these areas as a shortcoming of R2P when considered in context with what LFS is already capable of.

- R2P requires some gathering of data in order to process race statistics on their web site and to integrate these stats with their ranking/rewards system. Currently, the method of achieving this has not been actioned but is apparently quite achievable due to LFS' existing features of the same nature.

- Some features of R2P events are only accessable to paying members. There are two levels of paid membership available. The highest level (US$10/month) would be required by those wishing to create a team blog, or by those wishing to run and manage their own league or event. For a dedicated league organiser who wishes to run a year-long series this may cost up to US$120 per annum, if my understanding is correct. Participants in this type of league (one allowing custom paintjobs, or custom models) would also need to be paying members. To me, the overall cost to the entire league (organisers and participants) for one year is too high to justify as being good value. That is not to say that nobody would be willing to pay, but I would not.

- To summarise;
In order for LFS to be properly integrated into R2P would require some alteration of R2P's current way of applying the rules and features that their project is based upon.
Some of the rules and features could be seen as a negation of current features and abilities of LFS and so R2P would need to rethink their philosophy and structure to properly accomodate LFS. They seem reluctant to accept this view, but I don't speak on their behalf, this is just my observation.

LFS racers should make their own mind up by researching the R2P and NASA sites and relationship.
R2P organisers should find out what LFS is, what features and shortcomings it has etc, before assuming that it will fit their model in the manner which other games/sims seem to do. R2P organisers should try to accept that LFS league organisers are probably going to be reluctant to continue working hard in the development of their league only to watch R2P get all of the benefits and associated rewards. A paradigm shift seems neccessary before this could ever occur.

Disclaimer: If my understanding of the R2P project is inaccurate or incomplete, I welcome any real corrections or considerations that I may have overlooked or are not apparent.
#202 - Flycantbird
What does a 'real racing licensce' mean, that is, if I were awarded a real racing licensce tomorrow, what would it do for me ?

Since it's been mentioned a couple times, I'm just curious.
Not particularly looking to join R2P or get a racing licensce.
#203 - Gunn
Quote from Flycantbird :What does a 'real racing licensce' mean, that is, if I were awarded a real racing licensce tomorrow, what would it do for me ?

Since it's been mentioned a couple times, I'm just curious.
Not particularly looking to join R2P or get a racing licensce.

If you wish to race in the real world you need to get a racing license. R2P apparently claim that sim racers who demonstrate real world understanding and application of racecraft etc, might be able to use this sim experience to go part the way towards qualifying for a real race license, issued (I assume) by NASA.
#204 - ajp71
Seems an unsupported claim and TBH any sanctioning body that acknowledges sim racing knowledge being on par to real instruction should be shot, in fact I'd of thought sim racers are a potentially high hazard when put in a race car due to a false sense of confidence.
#205 - Gunn
Quote from ajp71 :Seems an unsupported claim and TBH any sanctioning body that acknowledges sim racing knowledge being on par to real instruction should be shot, in fact I'd of thought sim racers are a potentially high hazard when put in a race car due to a false sense of confidence.

I recall reading an interview with Schumacher once where he was very surprised to discover that some of his fellow drivers did not understand how to balance a car in a turn using the throttle. Many sim racers already understand this concept, so from this example it is evident that sim racing can indeed teach the understanding of real racing techniques. Rules and racecraft can also be learnt from sim racing. I assume that these are the types of things that they are talking about.
#206 - ajp71
^^Yeah I think they are but any kind of assumption of this knowledge from people who have played sims is just lethal, think of the number of people who don't understand the basic rules in LFS, and even worse the number of long time, and often fast LFS users who drive in a manor when around other cars which is just plain dangerous.
#207 - SamH
There is, however a leap from a sim racer understanding a technique and how it works, to a sim racer actually earning points towards an actual on-track racing licence by applying those techniques in a simulated environment.

I agree with ajp and I think that any sanctioning body that took the act of racing in rF or GT2 as a qualification component, in and of itself, with respect to earning a racing licence, should probably be looking at a sizeable increase in their liability insurance policy renewal fee. It would be an act of gross incompetence.

Sim racing should never be treated as a fastrak to real-life racing, by any responsible governing body.
#208 - KiDCoDEa
i'm just amazed thread wasn't closed on page 6, not that im pro closing threads (quite the contrary) its just that i see threads that are more alive sometimes being closed, and this one died there.
#209 - Gunn
Quote from KiDCoDEa :i'm just amazed thread wasn't closed on page 6, not that im pro closing threads (quite the contrary) its just that i see threads that are more alive sometimes being closed, and this one died there.

It probably would have petered out on page one if you hadn't have stirred the pot.
#210 - Mister2zx3
Positive momentum. Nice. As a NASA member and instructor for racecraft, we see all types. Some that just don't belong on the track, and some that are naturals, and move on to full time pro seats, to everything in between. My Chief Instructor has not said anything about this and I haven't asked yet. it's the off season, we need a break. But I can see where proper flag awareness, making mental notes of corner stations, car handling fundamentals can be a big benefit and go a long way to getting a competitoin license. Granted not all the way. Every one still has to get checked out and participate in certification exams. For me this does nothing really, already been there done years back. But for students this would be a great tool. and I'd much rather them using LFS with a G25. GT4 with a DFP wheel is better then nothing, and nothing well, that's it, the bottom. Plus many HPDE students are so overwhelmed their first time on track, especially when they show up and truly are blank slates, having to learn flags, weight transfer, dry lines, wet lines, braking points, no coasting, gas gas gas, etc. Of course in game/sim there are big differences from the real world, and those tend to create a lot of pucker factor and fear for greens. Rightfully so, otherwise they go home, some folks are not worth getting in a car with.. and the sim influence goes both ways, folks come out and want to tell us how to do it becuase they did it this way virtually, and yet they aren't up to pace, and others recogonize the sim is not a 1:1 recreation, and see the good parts, can seperate the bad parts and ignore them so they don't slow them down on track in real life.

Gunn, thanks for your input, This does seam to be a completely US centric operation, so many folks here it might mean nothing to them ( and for them they can move on, I'm sure they have better things do do - then again maybe not) , other than possibly some more servers and maybe even good connections to them? Maybe? who knows.

I'll have to dig deeper into this R2P and NASA comp licensing relationship, maybe I'll meet some students online before I meet them at the track. Maybe I still will, but it won't be of any relation to R2P.
#211 - KiDCoDEa
Quote from Gunn :but I don't speak on their behalf, this is just my observation.

sure? could have fooled me.

Quote from Gunn :It probably would have petered out on page one if you hadn't have stirred the pot.

i can almost feel the tears from here.
shame no violin nearby.
i guess you can only make erasing mistakes on threads that do matter.
#212 - Gunn
Quote from KiDCoDEa :sure? could have fooled me.



i can almost feel the tears from here.
shame no violin nearby.
i guess you can only make erasing mistakes on threads that do matter.

Awww and I had so much respect for you before now. I mean, who else could manage to go through both puberty and menopause at the same time? Remarkable.
#213 - KiDCoDEa
Quote from Gunn :Awww and I had so much respect for you before now. I mean, who else could manage to go through both puberty and menopause at the same time? Remarkable.

Look BigBen why dont you stick your unrequested opinions on users, to RSC? Who knows maybe you get some promotion there.
#214 - AndroidXP
:arge:
#215 - Becky Rose
@Gunn, tbh I ignore what Kid says because I can only understand every 3rd word of it - but he does have a very cute avatar . Go Kid !
#216 - TagForce
for the past 20 minutes I've been looking at that smiley Android posted. Oi.
#217 - zeugnimod
Quote from TagForce :for the past 20 minutes I've been looking at that smiley Android posted. Oi.

I know a secret. After 20 minutes and 10 seconds, the smiley does something new.

Too bad.
#218 - Gunn
Quote from KiDCoDEa :Look BigBen why dont you stick your unrequested opinions on users, to RSC? Who knows maybe you get some promotion there.

I haven't been to RSC for eighteen months or so, and prior to that perhaps a handful of times in a year. While I was a staff member there I made efforts to induce reform because I thought that the place was too hostile towards members, poorly managed, and mostly irrelevant to sim racing. Sadly, I failed to make any real positive impact on the people who manage the place and it would be fair to quote me as having said that "RSC is the cancer of the sim world" and I likened it to "a runaway train". I have no trouble at all staying away from the place but as I understand it some people just can't keep away.

I know you get angry and upset very easily, but I don't hold any grudges against you for that, I know you have some difficulty expressing yourself in a calm manner when you are talking about something that you are very passionate about. I know some people become intimidated by your manner, but I am not one of those people.

Wishing you a peaceful and happy Christmas.
#219 - Racer Y
Quote from Gunn :Tim's post was apparently made in anger and frustration, reposting it would generate more anger and frustration and I think the conversation can survive without it. He retracted his post, I think we should let sleeping dogs lie.

To recap the findings of my own research into R2P, here's a list of points:

- R2P would aid LFS by giving the sim more exposure, especially to the US market. It would also provide more LFS servers in the US which is something that many US-based LFS players might welcome. So, the inclusion of LFS in the R2P project would most likely generate additional sales of S2 licenses simply by way of exposure and would perhaps generate some additional online LFS activity, at least in the US region.

- R2P is affiliated (they say "sanctioned-by") with NASA, and uses a tailor made version of the NASA rules applied to all sim racing events that R2P encompasses. Apart from some prizes, R2P claim that success in the sim racing events they host could count towards a real racing license (probably useful to US residents only).
Other services that R2P provide include hosting of blogs etc.
R2P provide race stewards for events and they do all of the clerking and make the decisions on penalties etc.

- The R2P project has not been designed with LFS in mind. There are various aspects of R2P which do not cater to certain fundamental features of LFS and any user of LFS might identify these areas as a shortcoming of R2P when considered in context with what LFS is already capable of.

- R2P requires some gathering of data in order to process race statistics on their web site and to integrate these stats with their ranking/rewards system. Currently, the method of achieving this has not been actioned but is apparently quite achievable due to LFS' existing features of the same nature.

- Some features of R2P events are only accessable to paying members. There are two levels of paid membership available. The highest level (US$10/month) would be required by those wishing to create a team blog, or by those wishing to run and manage their own league or event. For a dedicated league organiser who wishes to run a year-long series this may cost up to US$120 per annum, if my understanding is correct. Participants in this type of league (one allowing custom paintjobs, or custom models) would also need to be paying members. To me, the overall cost to the entire league (organisers and participants) for one year is too high to justify as being good value. That is not to say that nobody would be willing to pay, but I would not.

- To summarise;
In order for LFS to be properly integrated into R2P would require some alteration of R2P's current way of applying the rules and features that their project is based upon.
Some of the rules and features could be seen as a negation of current features and abilities of LFS and so R2P would need to rethink their philosophy and structure to properly accomodate LFS. They seem reluctant to accept this view, but I don't speak on their behalf, this is just my observation.

LFS racers should make their own mind up by researching the R2P and NASA sites and relationship.
R2P organisers should find out what LFS is, what features and shortcomings it has etc, before assuming that it will fit their model in the manner which other games/sims seem to do. R2P organisers should try to accept that LFS league organisers are probably going to be reluctant to continue working hard in the development of their league only to watch R2P get all of the benefits and associated rewards. A paradigm shift seems neccessary before this could ever occur.

Disclaimer: If my understanding of the R2P project is inaccurate or incomplete, I welcome any real corrections or considerations that I may have overlooked or are not apparent.

Sorry gunn, don't mean to pick on you but I think some things ought to be pointed out....

For one thing, Just how will being on p2p help us Americans? LOL now that would mean even lower racer to server ratios.

Sanctioned by NASA....whoopie! A bunch a fat pasty nerdy slobs gonna tell me how to play a game I been playing for 3 years...Please
I have a hard enough time following the rules we use now.

$10.00 a month.... TEN DOLLARS A MONTH? Some a y'all think this is a good thing? ARE YOU ON DRUGS???

Finally, one of the really cool things that seperates LFS from the other titles is the Pick-Up game style of play we use. In fact, that's what a really big chunk of us like about LFS right there and well Mr. Tim said in one of earlier posts that P2P don't support that sort of thing.

OK one more thing... Actually, I think LFS association with P2P would be deterimental in the long run, if anything. Statements and comments like, "I'm not gonna pay For a LFS license when the game ain't even finished and then pay $10 a month just to play it" come to mind.

I remember when LFS was chained to the RSC forums how we were often treated kinda like virtual second-class citizens If we ever left our own forum (especially those GPL dorks) and visited the other forums on the site.
Why should I be remotely interested in this P2P if it causes me to have to
fool with people like that again?

Ok, NOW finally, Even though he comes off rash and hard and wears his emotions on his keyboard sometimes, When Kid goes off like this about something or another, he usually has a valid point some where between all those jabs and insults

What? R2P? oh sorry
#220 - Gunn
Racer Y, it seems like you are directing the majority of your post at me so I will try to respond to your points as best I can. If you had read my responses you would realise that I am not in support of R2P and I think it's a rip-off and poorly-planned if LFS was ever in mind. But that doesn't mean I'm too gutless to identify good points about organised racing with real world rules that the project embraces.

Americans are often complaining about a lack of LFS servers and racers. Any promotion of LFS to the American market should by default increase the number of racers and the number of servers in that region. If you still think this is a bad thing then I will still accept your opinion, but what I'm not going to do is jump on the bandwagon of abuse just because the general concept of R2P is not to my liking or the organisers have failed to consider the strengths of LFS before coming here to promote their project.

Pick up races in LFS are often disruptive chat-fests with little serious focus on racing. Any organised event negates this type of activity making a better environment for those who just want to compete in races. For many of us an organised environment is preferable to a random and disorganised environment. I see merit in any organised event and I support the idea of more organised and structured racing, this type of environment is not endemic to R2P alone.

Members here on the forum constantly complain about lack of racecraft or knowledge of flag and overtaking rules etc, in LFS. So to me, any adoption of real world rules for any sim or game is a step towards education of all sim racers in correct race etiquette and rules. Again, I can't see how anyone could see such a move as being counter-productive and again, R2P doesn't hold a monopoly on applying real world rules and conditions to sim racing. So even if I do not see LFS as a suitable candidate for R2P I welcome the efforts of anyone to further educate sim racers in good race practises.

I don't sim-race for fun, I do it because to me it is an enjoyable challenge. I don't enjoy umpteen restarts, nor mid race join, nor wrecking and ignorance of sensible rules, nor MSN style racing sessions, nor novelty servers like CnR, nor unsuitable "mixed-class" racing, nor 5 lap sprints. Not everyone is going for the same experience with LFS. For me, LFS online would be much improved if racing was more structured and organised. Sure, pick-up racing can be real fun, but if I want a proper race it would be the last format I would ever consider. The whole CS join-and-shoot mentality doesn't attract me to any online gaming genre, sim racing especially. I would prefer proper races with real rules and no otherwise avoidable disruptions.
So from my point of view I will always applaud efforts to organise races and apply sensible real world rulings and conditions. I have been quite forward with my condemnation of the R2P project in relation to the inclusion of LFS into its regime, and I am equally forward in my opinion of any move to educate and reform online racers so that a better experience may be had by anyone searching for serious racing online. I consider it a balanced view.
If you or anyone else was to launch a project with good points and bad, I would be just as willing to identify the points that I thought were not workable and those that are a potential strength. There is no need to throw the baby out with the bath water. I also believe that a person can make an intelligent stance or project their point of view (both negative and positive) without resorting to emotive and defamatory character assassinations or dramatic outbursts. In this topic I have attempted to identify the things that I believe simply can not work and also those that I find merit in.
I have no affiliation with the parties involved, have not communicated with them outside of this thread and have no intention of becoming involved with their project. I'm confident enough in my appraisals to call a spade a spade. I'm satisfied that I have given both sides of the argument(s) a fair hearing in my own judgement and have posted my thoughts accordingly.

So, as I said earlier, make up your own mind. I hope that my research into this topic helps others who otherwise couldn't be bothered or don't have time to take a closer look at the various issues.


#221 - Racer Y
Quote from Gunn :
Racer Y, it seems like you are directing the majority of your post at me so I will try to respond to your points as best I can. If you had read my responses you would realise that I am not in support of R2P and I think it's a rip-off and poorly-planned if LFS was ever in mind. But that doesn't mean I'm too gutless to identify good points about organised racing with real world rules that the project embraces.





Oops I'm sorry. I wasn't directing my responses at YOU. but what you posted. you had all these points and this one was one of the few posts that wasn't totally biased...like you what you said you did, looked it up and came up with those conclusions. Well when I looked it up, well sorta did, that's what I come up with.
Now to be honest I didn't look it up too good (LOL those NASA guys do real races?)
But I really don't think this idea or any similar will do more for you as regards to serious racing than what you already have. Almost everyone that plays LFS knows what a blue flag is, it's still up to the individual if they're going to follow it. Heck, some kid paying 10 bucks a month might even be inclined to think that blue flags are for the people with free memberships to obey

Also, if there are to be serious racing rules, then they shouldn't really try to mimic real racing as much accomidate the very real experiences of sim racing. How many times has Mario Andretti had to pit cause of a phone call?
Why have Red flags for wrecks when the cars can just pit out or reset, yet do nothing during a LAG attack?

You know there really is a big potential for sim racing but the mind set really needs to get away from trying to imitate "real" racing and come into it's own as a form of racing. Taking advantage of a virtual environment
and making rules accordingly.

And I dunno, the pick up games work for me. I really just don't have the time or desire to commit to structured racing. LOL i can't even deal with becky's servers. but about once or twice a week I get a few hours to kill
So finding a quick little race to jump into is all I can really do.


Like I said I wasn't attacking you or anything like that, So I'm sorry if you took it that way.

THere's still a bit more I could ramble on about, but I think the horse is pretty much dead anyways.

Merry X-Mas
#222 - GianniC
I've been reading (most) if this and a lot sounds like Latin to me. So perhaps I better won't say a word here, but I will as a heavily addicted LFS player for over 4 years. As far as I understand everything here I don't see any reason why LFS and R2P should work together. And after all LFS stays a game, even if it's proclaiming "realism", you'll never get the realism as in the reality. We don't need R2P.

So far my hopefully usefull contribution to this topic.
You may now go on with all those special terms and all
#223 - keiran
The problem I see R2P has is LFS has already quite a lot of major leagues running at this time. It's a sort of been there and done that type thing for the LFS community. We already have so much choice and variety.

LFS has the ESL Germany which is broadcasted on TV if I remember corectly and has real prizes. The STCC, which has a fully commentated broadcast for every round. The MoE which can be tracked live, the OWRL, the list is endless of very well orgainsed leagues available.

For me it's hard to see as a racer what you can offer me that I can't already find for free.
#224 - GianniC
In other words, LFS is better and so is the LFS community !

No?!
#225 - BigBen
Quote from KiDCoDEa :Look BigBen why dont you stick your unrequested opinions on users, to RSC? Who knows maybe you get some promotion there.

Wow, usually Kid waits until I've posted to start exploding, I guess he's gotten more proactive since the last time we crossed paths?

Way late to the game here, but I've been really enjoying R2P, and wishing LFS was a part of it. I get a grin out of the conversations about who turns a profit.....I've paid cash to LFS twice, and to R2P zero times.

LFS is my favorite sim, but it's also the one I drive the least. The barriers to entry are too high for me to join a league (a criticism of me, not league workaholics!), the pick up races aren't what I'm after, and the single player doesn't do it for me at all. but the feeling of driving the cars....ahhhhhh, bliss.

Race2Play streamlines or removes all the barriers to entry that I'm confronted with. The one race I've been a part of was simply brilliant. I signed up with a click, had a populated server for doing online practice for a few days, and race day was slick and smooth, with track marshels ensuring that everybody knew what they were doing (a big issue for me, since I often find I don't know what I'm doing, and I'm terrified of screwing other folks up because of my ignorance).

So now I'm in an odd position. I'm eagerly awaiting the next series that starts in my time slot, even though it's not a sim I really like to play. I really wish it was LFS.

~Ben
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National Auto Sport Association Embraces Sanctioned Sim Racing With Race2play
(229 posts, started )
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