-- Even after V -- -My contribution to the subject of new sounds, on behalf of people who think they are better, but could be better still.

I think what would make just about everyone happy is:
(this is for inside cockpit sounds)..


1) More of the actual engine sounds coming into the cockpit- (like my post above explains)
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=292970#post292970
-that's really important for the "realism" of the sounds- so it doesn't sound so synthetic.

2) More tire scrub and tire squeal sounds coming into the cockpit- and not so muffled sounding..

3) Less mid-bass OVERALL-

4) More DEEP BASS and more TREBLE OVERALL-
(to fill out the overall sound spectrum so the subwoofer and tweeters get more of the action)
As it is still very taxing to listen to LFS while in the cockpit, and still is somewhat of a headache generation device.

5) more adjustability so people can customize the sounds to their liking
(separate volume sliders for different sounds if at all possible)-


I think the only people who would not like this are people who are totally satisfied with whatever it sounds like, no matter what- or people who think there is some advantage to be gained by letting people adjust the sound more. I think that whole notion is ridiculous though.

I agree with you on everything except for Point 2) and 5) and I'm also in the camp who thinks the Sounds are better, but could be better still.

I dont recall hearing the tyres scrub and squeal Sound alot when I was in a Race car. In most cars in LFS you have a big engine and a Racing Exhaust, with the Speed your going, Wind noises and the sounds of the opponent cars you hardly hear your tyre scrubbing and occasionally loudly squealling. The way it is now it seems a slight bit too much tyre Sounds.

But Opinions differ of course and it might sound different threw everybodys Hardware but I would say in my mind the tyre sounds are still a little bit too loud.

I dont think People should be able to change different aspects of the Sound easily because it is better if all drivers hear roughly the same Sounds aspect volumes from the Sim.
Even though different Hardware produces different sound it should not be able to raise for example the tyre sounds only to a unrealistic and driving-aid point of level.

Quote from George Kuyumji :

I dont recall hearing the tyres scrub and squeal Sound alot when I was in a Race car. In most cars in LFS you have a big engine and a Racing Exhaust, with the Speed your going, Wind noises and the sounds of the opponent cars you hardly hear your tyre scrubbing and occasionally loudly squealling. The way it is now it seems a slight bit too much tyre Sounds.

In a game, you do not have the advantage of G-Forces as you do in real life, so you need more audible cues form the sim so you know what is going on with your car.

cue:
cue1 /kyu/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kyoo] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, cued, cu·ing.
–noun 1. anything said or done, on or off stage, that is followed by a specific line or action:
3. a hint; intimation; guiding suggestion.

5. a sensory signal used to identify experiences, facilitate memory, or organize responses.

–verb (used with object) 7. to provide with a cue or indication; give a cue to; prompt: Will you cue me on my lines?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cue


Also- the "way it sounds" now on your soundcard and speakers with your ears Is NOT the way it sounds for anyone else.
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Quote from George Kuyumji :

But Opinions differ of course and it might sound different threw everybodys Hardware but I would say in my mind the tyre sounds are still a little bit too loud.

Exactly why we need more adjustment... and not with just skidding sounds.
----------------

Quote from George Kuyumji :

I dont think People should be able to change different aspects of the Sound easily because it is better if all drivers hear roughly the same Sounds aspect volumes from the Sim.
Even though different Hardware produces different sound it should not be able to raise for example the tyre sounds only to a unrealistic and driving-aid point of level.

That is contradicting yourself.. unless LFS is tested on all hardware combinations that exist, it is impossible to say what is an "unrealistic driving aid".. As it is a lot of people can't hear a LOT of the sounds inside the cockpit, but someone in chase view or "bumper cam" view can hear a lot more.. So people in chase view should be rewarded with better and "easier to hear" sounds? That makes no sense at all..

-plus if you think adjusting sound levels is a cheat, then you better not let people use CHASE VIEW, and everyone better have the same exact INPUT DEVICE (same WHEEL- set to same ROTATION and FF)- everyone better be playing on the same exact MONITOR and everyone better use the exact same FIELD OF VIEW.. everyone better be playing with the same VIDEO CARD and everyone better have the same FRAMERATE. Do you see why that argument is totally unrealistic? There comes a point were when most people say things like "the sound is crap" and "it's giving me a headache" and stuff like that, that something is very wrong.

Arguing against more user control over the sounds makes no sense if you think the problem through to the end result, especially if your argument is that it gives an unfair advantage.

Quote from BWX232 :

In a game, you do not have the advantage of G-Forces as you do in real life, so you need more audible cues form the sim so you know what is going on with your car.

I understand and know what you mean, the Sound compensate for the lesser input the Sim Driver gets from the Program. Would you prefer the Sim to have louder tyre Sounds as they are supposed to be? I would prefer if the Sim trys to reproduce the Sound as 'authentic' as it possibly could be without taking care of the "lack of other inputs for the driver". It's all about how do you like a Sim to be in this aspect.

Quote from BWX232 :

Also- the "way it sounds" now on your soundcard and speakers with your ears Is NOT the way it sounds for anyone else.

Thats just what I said The Sound is different on different Hardware. Thats unfortunate and should be kept to a minimum difference. However if the difference is so much that its getting too much, than i would understand the need for these Options. But at the moment, it doesnt seem to be a case in any other Sim?

Quote from BWX232 :

That is contradicting yourself.. unless LFS is tested on all hardware combinations that exist, it is impossible to say what is an "unrealistic driving aid".. As it is a lot of people can't hear a LOT of the sounds inside the cockpit, but someone in chase view or "bumper cam" view can hear a lot more.. So people in chase view should be rewarded with better and "easier to hear" sounds? That makes no sense at all..

Frankly I dont care if some view would be "rewarded" or not, I only drive in cockpit view and the Sounds should get as accurate as possible. Thats the more important thing for my enjoyment of a Sim, I do not want compromises "for the lack of G-Force inputs".

Quote from BWX232 :

-plus if you think adjusting sound levels is a cheat, then you better not let people use CHASE VIEW, and everyone better have the same exact INPUT DEVICE (same WHEEL- set to same ROTATION and FF)- everyone better be playing on the same exact MONITOR and everyone better use the exact same FIELD OF VIEW.. everyone better be playing with the same VIDEO CARD and everyone better have the same FRAMERATE. Do you see why that argument is totally unrealistic? There comes a point were when most people say things like "the sound is crap" and "it's giving me a headache" and stuff like that, that something is very wrong.

Arguing against more user control over the sounds makes no sense if you think the problem through to the end result, especially if your argument is that it gives an unfair advantage.

I think its pretty obvious that if you give the Player a big amount of Options over the Sound Volumes that it can produce unfair advantages.

Right, we do not have the same Framerate, same Wheel or the same Video card, but allowing a big amount of Sound Options to the Player should be decided on its Pros and Cons for the Sim regardless of decisions on other Topics of the Sim.

I did write something that is similar to your thoughts in here:
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=294898#post294898

Quote from George Kuyumji :

I think its pretty obvious that if you give the Player a big amount of Options over the Sound Volumes that it can produce unfair advantages.

Just wanted to note on this, if you give both players the same option, and one takes it and the other doesn't, it isn't an unfair advantage. Sure, one has an advantage, but the other chooses not to take the advantage as well, thus it is not unfair.

I'm in agreement with BWX. You (George) talk about advantages and having it sound as realistic as possible, yet, the different hardware issue and personal opinions blur the realism aspect. What sound real to your ears with your hardware, doesn't neccessarily sound real to me with my hardware.

Like I've said in other sound topic threads, if you wanted and thought it was realistic sounding, then you would be using earplugs while you play, or suffer the beginnings of hearing loss. Sometimes for gameplay, you have to make a compromise between realism and gameplay. If you need louder and more pronounced skid sounds to compensate for g-force feeling, then that is the compromise that needs to be made. Same as how I use 50-60 FOV to give me a realistic view and immersion feeling that I'm driving a car and others use default 90 FOV so that they can better see to the sides and the side mirrors, yet with a worse for realism stretching of the view perspective. It's all a compromise unless you have the perfect hardware.

Quote from mrodgers :

Same as how I use 50-60 FOV to give me a realistic view and immersion feeling that I'm driving a car and others use default 90 FOV so that they can better see to the sides and the side mirrors, yet with a worse for realism stretching of the view perspective. It's all a compromise unless you have the perfect hardware.

That's not realitic if you have your monitor infront of your wheel then your probably 800-900mm away from it and the most realistic FOV would be about 30deg

I think it is unrealistic how much people insist it should be realistic even when computers get to 1,000x more powerful than the current ones there will still be limitations that you just have to accept in a sim.

I think there is a wide gap between two different interpretaions of realism.
One is it must look, sound and respond as real as possible at expense of making it imopssibly difficult to drive.
The other is it must feel right to drive, which might mean we have to introduce some features which aren't exact replicas of real life to make up for what a PC can't give you.

I guess it's what your looking for in a sim that detirmines what side your on, for me it's the later and if I was in the first group I'd have to spend a hell of alot of money building a motion platform and surround screens, etc. before I would have something I'd be happy with

Quote from George Kuyumji :

Sounds should get as accurate as possible. Thats the more important thing for my enjoyment of a Sim,

Sounds can only be "accurate" as you call it- if enough adjustment is given BECAUSE OF the differences in hardware.. There are obviously huge differences.

And if most everyone says the sounds need a lot of work, and that they are actually painful in many cases.. adjustment is needed BADLY.

I'm not going to argue in this thread.. I made my points, any more discussion with you especially is just going in circles. I refer you to post #333.

Quote from BWX232 :

Sounds can only be "accurate" as you call it- if enough adjustment is given BECAUSE OF the differences in hardware.. There are obviously huge differences.

And if most everyone says the sounds need a lot of work, and that they are actually painful in many cases.. adjustment is needed BADLY.

I'm not going to argue in this thread.. I made my points, any more discussion with you especially is just going in circles. I refer you to post #333.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=16919 here you can see that most of people (almost 70%) do like new sounds better than old ones. Your experience must be then different and yes, more adjustment is needed indeed because we are getting so much different experiences so there must be different sound what we hear because of our different audio systems.

I'm sure we will see new patch for sounds after Scawen returns from holiday, perhaps there is then possibility to hear is there plans for more adjustability for sounds.

Quote from Glenn67 :

I think it is unrealistic how much people insist it should be realistic even when computers get to 1,000x more powerful than the current ones there will still be limitations that you just have to accept in a sim......
....the other is it must feel right to drive, which might mean we have to introduce some features which aren't exact replicas of real life to make up for what a PC can't give you.

Exactly, precisely, and exactly.

Quote from JTbo :

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=16919 here you can see that most of people (almost 70%) do like new sounds better than old ones. Your experience must be then different and yes, more adjustment is needed indeed because we are getting so much different experiences so there must be different sound what we hear because of our different audio systems.

Yeah they are better- 70% say that.. I say that too. Better doesn't mean perfect either.. just better. That doesn't mean the all those 70 percent are completely satisfied. The devs said the sounds are getting worked on anyway- so we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Quote :

Frankly I dont care if some view would be "rewarded" or not, I only drive in cockpit view and the Sounds should get as accurate as possible. Thats the more important thing for my enjoyment of a Sim, I do not want compromises "for the lack of G-Force inputs".

Well if it is as accurate as possible for you, and the sound cards and speakers are making it sound different for different people, you need to give adjustment control. Simple as that.

It sure seems as if you care if someone is rewarded by an unfair sound advantage by your quote below.. If you want it accurate, then adjust it for what you think sounds accurate for you and never mind what other people adjust their volume sliders to. It makes no sense to argue against more adjustment if you don't think someone will have an unfair advantage because of sound volume adjustment and you don't care. :-/

Quote :

think its pretty obvious that if you give the Player a big amount of Options over the Sound Volumes that it can produce unfair advantages

.

Again you're talking in circles.. I'll just wait until the next patch..

I think the sounds are just pathetic really, too synthetic and frequency is too high, no backfiring, no burble when off the throttle, no intake noise
turbo sounds like a.. well its not a turbo i dunno what you call it
its a step in the wrong direction

if I cold suggest get some real engine sounds

You can't hear the turbo or intake noise? Thats one of things people have been saying is too loud!

Have you driven the RAC or the LX6? They sounds pretty damn awesome if you ask me. Not perfect, no, but way better than before. All the other cars are better than before too, and sound more like cars than they did. It still needs work, no one is denying that, but to say it's a step in the wrong direction...

I very much doubt Scawen will use samples, for the simple reason they sound crap (imo).

I can hear the turbo no problem only prob is it doesnt sound like a turbo, the only real improvment is in the F08
and the to high frequency distorts even my jbl speakers with a no pre amp and flat eq

Quote from tristancliffe :

Have you driven the RAC or the LX6? They sounds pretty damn awesome if you ask me. Not perfect, no, but way better than before.

Well, different tastes, different opinions. The RA sounds hilarious and the LX6 doesn't sound anything like those similar cars what I've heard. I think the previous (<U30) sounds are better.

Just making a point that most people (what I've heard and from whom I have asked from) say that the sounds are bad, if said nicely. Trying to give people a picture that most of people here like the new sounds is wrong because it is not true. Saying that the sounds are awesome and better than ever is just as good and constructive as saying the sounds are bad and better than ever.

I'm hoping and dreaming that Kegetys or some other smart person makes a program to edit the sounds in some way. Even more I hope that Scawen continues to work with the sounds for the next patch. Imho, in current state, the sounds are critical to get better. If the sounds aren't not updated in the next patch... don't know really... I don't want to use CSR but I don't want to give up playing LFS either

The RA definately sounds the best out the bunch, the LX's & FXO aren't bad either. Overall I think the sounds have definately improved - I've switched back to them from CSR, CSR may sound a lot better at full throttle but the LFS sounds are so much nicer and informative when at part throttle.

I did have to make a couple of adjustments though, namely turning the noise shaping stuff off on my stereo and turning the subwoofer down, otherwise everything sounded too base heavy.

Overall IMO the sounds are a big step up from before, of course they need more work but I'm happy with the progress being made, definately heading in the right direction.

LX6 sounds actually like 3 litre (2.5? what they were? I'm not BMW person) inline-6 engine from my neighbour's BMW CSL, LX6 just revs much more. This is with my system of course, some other's system may sound lot different.

Way RAC sounds in my system I can only say that it sounds bit low in rpm wise, 8k rpm should sound faster than current sound, 1-1.5k rpm I would say is need of adjustment at top, that would make some power to sound aswell.

Sorry to spoil the party, but I'm not so sure if we're hearing quite the same sounds. Are there significant differences between soundcards or something?
Imo, the RAC is one of the weakest new sounds, next to the RB4. In fact, it sounds almost exactly like the RB4.

- RAC Sound comparison
- RB4 Sound comparison

I still like the old sounds much more. They are much more balanced and there's more fullness to them.
The LX6 sounds a little better than those two above but it's not so much an improvement over the old sound than a sidestep, a different flavour:

- LX6 Sound comparison

What sound card are you running, biggie? The RAC sounds very different on my computer - I hear a bit more of a rumble. Also what is your sound lag set to?

So there's a difference indeed! I'm using a Terratec Aureon 5.1 Sky and incl. latest drivers.
My sound lag is set to 0.10 for Patch V and used to be 0.20 for U9.

Did you try using an equalizer to improve the sounds?
I didn't like the patch V sounds first, but since I played around with the sound-EQ it's great. Far away from perfect, but actually quite good.

Vain

In fact, I did just that. See this posting:
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=292791#post292791

However, my soundcard driver doesn't have a built-in equalizer so I cannot change the sound signature on the fly. Even then I wouldn't like it very much since all of the other sounds coming from the soundcard (especially music) would sound horrible when everything is optimized for LFS.
I think it might be best to include that EQ setting into the LFS sound generation, don't you think?

i spotted that "Patch V" has better replay playing, very smooth car movements.. or am i dreaming???

Quote from Vain :

Did you try using an equalizer to improve the sounds?
I didn't like the patch V sounds first, but since I played around with the sound-EQ it's great. Far away from perfect, but actually quite good.

Vain

Is there non-card specific equalizer programs out there to help play with sound? Or are they all part of the drivers? I have onboard and a Soundblaster Live! The options I have for adjusting sound on the card is very limited. Actually, the onboard sounds MUCH better as I get lots of interference and crackling when using the card. I am currently trying to adjust parameters, but it seems that, though I can change things in a parametric equalizer, they alway revert back to a box setting (ie, heavy metal, jazz, etc.) None of my adjustments take. The parametric feature would be great if I could isolate the frequency that's giving me the problem and get it to save and keep the settings.

Any suggestions on downloadable equalizers?

About all onboard chips come with a software equalizer in their software-package. Check the driver-disk for the mainboard or better the website of the mainboard-distributor because there you'll get the latest version. Look for utilities, not the 'drivers-only' package.
( I also had to switch from my old Soundblaster to the onboard device because the soundblaster card didn't have an equalizer in it's software-package. )

There are third party equalizers, but about all of them are commercial. That's why I chose the onboard-solution.

Vain