I completely disagree. The G25 and similar three pedal setups ARE the way forward. Two pedal setups are old news. Proper three pedal setups are the controls of today.
I want to play against drivers using similar setups as my own and I should have the freedom to do so on a server that I run. You can feel free to not like it, but on my server I should be able to dictate the terms. My terms would be axis clutch required and h-shifter required. You don't like the terms? Nobody is forcing you to play with me. End of story.
The list seems rather Semi-Hardcore given the Approach towards the Clutch help.
The clutch is an essential part of Simulating a car, it should be included in a "Hardcore" Mode.
IMHO in a Hardcore Mode, it shouldnt even be possible to assign the clutch to a button, its supposed to be an Axis in most cases. Furthermore, a Hardcore Mode should ATLEAST HAVE THE OPTION to only allow H-gated shifting. There are alot of people on 3 pedals who do not have a G25. And would like to Race other people who also use 3 Pedals and a H-Type shifter.
In my opinion hardcore mode should not be a way to separate people by their hardware. It does not matter what device or options my opponent uses, its my own choice if I want to hinder my speed by using realistic options/hardware.
Hardcore mode should be about making the game as realistic as possible even if it would make the game more annoying at times. Basically the normal mode would be mainly on public servers where people could reset the car, teleport to the pits etc and the hardcore mode would just remove these options, if you crash bad enough your race is over. The hardcore mode should make the game as unforgiving as real life not make a big part of players unable to play.
These two things are mutually exclusive. You can't make a realistic sim and have a manual transmission car with no clutch or people driving with a mouse and keyboard. It comes down to personal choice. If you want to allow keyboard racers and two-pedal setups on your server you should be able to. If you choose to race against people who have three pedal setups, steering wheels, etc. that should be your choice as well. I personally prefer the latter. If that's TOO hardcore for you, fine. There are plenty of other servers to race on and you can always host your own.
What's the point in enforcing things you cannot verify. Anything could send the axis value for the clutch, including a button. The H-shifter uses keys or joystick buttons, anything can send them, including paddles. It's not feasible to check for these things, the result is lots of code that will break as soon as anyone tries to break it.
Seems like the 2 pedals Lobby does not want 3 Pedal users to have the Option, to run Races where everybody uses the same techniques of driving, important things for a Racing Simulation - such as shifting the Gears while using a clutch pedal, or shifting Gears with a H-Type Shifter. You dont have to run any of these Options, but you should be able to if you want to. If it is not "approved" to allow these Settings to be made by the Host, we can also start calling LFS a Online Racing Game, if its not beeing allowed to run full Simulation type Options.
Surely there will always be a way around by using buttons instead of a H-type Gated Shifter, or buttons as a clutch Axis, but it is uncomfortabel to drive with that technique then, and some good Programming could prohibit atleast some cheating probably. Even if its not 100 % Cheat Prove but then what is? It should not be missed because of that if this feature is called a "Hardcore Mode".
I have a shifter and use realistic steering rotation (720 degrees in road cars etc) and I will get a 3 pedal set soon as I get the money for it. And I will use them too..
It's my personal choice, same as it should be for everyone. I just don't see the point of dividing a already small community in to a even smaller parts. Not everybody has the money or the interest to spend over 200 € on sim racing equipment, so why it should it be a factor in what kind of racing they can have?
I am with filur too, people will always find a way around such restrictions if they want to. So it makes adding such restrictions pointless.
Can you spare me $250 to buy a G25 then? That way I wont have to delay my mortgage payment or other bills, or my bill to 500 servers to provide servers at no cost to other users.
Make a game eliteist and you shut out the majority of users. Talent, not hardware, makes for a good sim racer.
I get the idea of the hardcore mode and i like the idea but there has to be some sort of comprimise. I know it sounds stupid to say hardcore mode with a comprimise but from my POV i have a dfp, its not even a year old yet and i only use auto clutch. BUT with hardcore mode i would eitherhave to play on the non hardcore mode or be foreced to buy a g25 when my dfp works fine.
I disagree. In a few years 3 pedal setups will be pretty much standard. The G25 is the first step in affordable 3 pedal setups, give it a couple of years and 90% of people will have a 3-pedal setup with H shifter (in theory anyway), then I might agree
I'm afraid I'm against ANYTHING that will split the LFS community, and doing something like that would certainly do that.
I've had my G25 for 5 days now, and I'm loving every second using it, but I'm on the side of people with 2-pedal setups for now. Main reason being, I know what it's like not having any money to be able to afford a G25, I don't have a job (been looking for one for almost a year now with no success) and I have saved every penny i could so I could buy myself a G25.
It's not my fault you can't afford a proper setup with three pedals. I won't buy you a G25 any more than someone else will buy me a new PC with a faster processor and video card, a track car, or a new Ferrari. It's up to you to decide what your priorities are. <shrug>
This has nothing to do with "elitism" at all. It has to do with making a level playing field and racing against other people who share the same interests. I have three pedals and a 720* wheel. My friends have three pedals and 720* wheels. We would like to play with other like-minded racers without having people using cheats...er, aids...mucking it up. I'm afraid I also must disagree with your statement about talent making for a good sim racer. While talent is a large portion of it, a lot of racers are fast because they know how to exploit the game. People are fast because they can shift in a millisecond with no risk of missing a gear. People are fast because they can downshift three gears without damaging the engine. People are fast because they find holes in the track which allow them to cut corners, ricochet off of walls, etc. People are fast because they explot flaws in the physics engine (the most infamous of which is now fixed - the "high nose bug"). So yes, talent makes for a good sim racer, but that's not the whole story. Having an automatic clutch means that you have one less opportunity to make a mistake than I do every single time you shift gears. One missed gear or flubbed shift could mean the difference between winning an losing. I'm taking that risk and you are not. That's not a level playing field or a fair race.
Someone said that they don't want to see the community fractured. That's a load of horse shit. Adding the option to enforce manual clutch wouldn't fragment the community any more than adding a car, adding a track, etc. If you want an "unfragmented" community we need to have one server running one track and that's it. Anything more and you "fragment the community". So, do you REALLY want a unified community if it means driving Blackwood for eternity?
The ability to determine exactly what, when, and HOW we want to drive and compete is what makes this game so good. Don't like the road cars? Drive the open wheelers. Don't like the short tracks? Drive the long ones. Adding the option to enforce different game options doesn't narrow the focus or appeal of LFS, it broadens it.
This is the chicken or the egg argument that can never be won. You don't want the option in the game until more people have the hardware. The people like me who have the hardware don't like using it without the option in the game.
And it seems like the people with only two pedals are terrified that they'll be left behind with nobody to race with when everyone else moves to a three pedal setup.
To me it seems like people with 3 pedal sets are terrified that they cant be as fast as people with autoclutches. The only difference is that when you have three pedals, you can choose to race with autoclutch for example by just changing an option in the game. But the people who have only 2 pedals are forced to spend money to make a same kind of change.
All this talk about level playing field is stupid. No one is forcing you to use clutch and shifter. You can "cheat" too if you want to.
I think there should be options for 3 pedals, h-shifters, both and none. Every hates elitism, but are really pleased when they get their gold STCC licence and can get away from the Newbie server. They are pleased when they buy S2 and get away from the crappy demo servers. They are pleased when... goes their way. But as soon as someone suggests something that doesn't benefit them (but almost certainly won't hinder them) they get all arsey about elitism!!!!
Two solutions (imo):
1. Allow servers to filter h-shifter requirments etc.
2. Slow down the driver aids so that everyone, regardless of which shifter they use, is roughly the same.
With 1. we end up with racers racing against people using similar hardware. With 2. everyone goes a bit slower (so it's still even, just your lap times will be one second slower). I've seen a lot of people get upset about option 2, as if everyone being 1 second slower makes the slightest bit of difference to the online experience.
I would really like to see BOTH of these implemented. In addition, any auto-clutch needs to have at least a small risk of missing a shift or, at the very least, not being able to catch the clutch fast enough to prevent stalling the engine during a spin (this requires better clutch code and stalling, of course).
That's just the point. I don't WANT to use aids. I don't WANT to use auto clutch. I want to use a manual clutch and drive against others who are doing the same. This is part of the reason that the STCC servers are so popular with the fast guys. You can't use auto blip, you can't use auto-cut, you can't use auto transmission. Auto-clutch needs to be able to be turned off as well.
You can use your auto clutch all you want, just not on MY server. I should have the ability to determine who plays on my server and what driving aids they are allowed to use.
But it gives a huge disadvantage. Simulations like from Papy, adds a little time when you use driving Aids, so that driving Aids drivers are not faster. Edited last sentence
I would like to be able to change gear manually without losing my right to win races. I don't see why I should be punished for taking a 'hobby' seriously enough to warrant expenditure.
At the same time I don't see why people without the cash/hardware should be penalised and automatically made extra slow. Better balancing would be nice.
At the same time again, I would like to be able to race people with the same hardware as me, whether I have a 2 pedal 270° wheel or a 3 pedal, h-shifted, 900 degree wheel, or a mouse, or a keyboard. Don't you think some keyboard users would love to have a keyboard only league (or something)... It's the same thing. It's only a problem when the people asking are the people who happen to have spent more money than absolutely necessary. I bet if someone started a thread asking for a server option to limit connections to Keyboard Stabilised there'd be no objection.
Wow, as if finding a server that isn't drift or open to all cars (thus making a decent race impossible) isn't hard enough.illepall Lets make more game divisions so that each server will have one or two people.
does not want 3 Pedal users to have the Option, to run Races where everybody uses the same techniques of driving, important things for a Racing Simulation - such as shifting the Gears while using a clutch pedal, or shifting Gears with a H-Type Shifter. You dont have to run any of these Options, but you should be able to if you want to. If it is not "approved" to allow these Settings to be made by the Host, we can also start calling LFS a Online Racing Game, if its not beeing allowed to run full Simulation type Options.
Just send me a G25 or the money to buy one 
I'll send you my address via PM 
illepall Lets make more game divisions so that each server will have one or two people.