I just want to share with you a funny/annoying conversation ive just had in public servers with a noob. This is not a rant, noobs are to be forgive for their ignorance and I shouldn´t be in public servers if I want to avoid them.
I braked at a resonable time after the striaght at blackwood. A noob crashes into the back of me and we both spin into the dirt:
I replied ¨When your the car in front you can brake when you like!¨, which got a few smiles from others.
Away, I think alot of noobs racing in LFS don´t know how to sit behind another car and pick the right part of the track and best situation to overtake. Most of them try late braking into corners and locking up and hitting ppl.
But then most of the guides in the Beginners forum are about faster laps times. Isn´t there one about racing/overtaking/rules and etiquette of the track? And if not shouldn´t there be one?
I am working on somthing but it will take some tiem to make sure I get the facts right. In the mean time if you have any specific questions post em and we can try to answer then as best we can.
Oh and for the record alot of experanced faster racers also lack the skills and mindset to leave enough room for differing driving styles. I would say that braking zone incidents are just as likely to be caused by a new driver missing their braking point as they are by a fast driver unable to alter their perfict hotlap line and speeds. The cause is multifacited and stems from many of us growing up on less sim like games and there not being any tangible consiquence for screwing up.
well, the goal of a race is to FINISH the race in as high of a position as possible. After crashing a few times, most people figure out they are doing something wrong and make changes to the way they drive. you are a noob if you dont. newb=someone new to the game. noob= someone who refuses to learn and adjust the way they drive so that they actually finnish races.
if i know there is someone behind or in front of me that is not very good at driving, i'll try my best to keep them from crashing into me.
if you see 3 people driving sideby side into a corner, maybe it is a bad idea to try and pass them untill they separate a bit. if you see someone with messed up suspension ahead of you, then you should be extra caution when trying to pass. just little things like that are picked up through experience and just good old fasioned thinking.
also, some people dont realize hotlapping and racing arent the same thing. they run into traffic and either crash or end up lapping 2 seconds slower than they are capable of.
i would rather deal with people running into me from behind than what a had to deal with the other day. Guess thats why i need to buy that S2. I had just joined a room and was just taking it easy warming my tires up when the YELLOW FLAG came up so i back off a bit, then i get hit head on and get called a crasher, then i get booted after enough votes.
After the initial getting pissed...i just laughed, people on the internets kill me, lol.
I like the Clean Racers Rules. Noobs really need to read the bit about corner rights. But I can understand why they would rather race than read though what is a rather hefty document.
I´d love to help make something like a graphical cut down version of the Clean Racers Rules.
We were racing FOXes so that wasn´t a problem. But I know what you mean.
I've only ever been brake tested in LFS by people in FOXs but they also seem to attract weavers/wreckers and general idiots who reckon that just because they are fast they can be wreckless.
There are so many experienced and fast racers that drive like having blinkers, it's amazing....
if someone is new it's quite understandable, but there are so may fast drivers that can't fight.
some basic rules for newbies are quite a good thing, but i think it's the mentality of those drivers that protect them from good, hard and fair racing.
it's so great (and unusual) if someone leaves you enough space to continue the race while driving side by side....
iv only been playing since xmas and i think iv read most of the racing guides on here, although im still learning and only getting 1.39sec times round blackwood, i always move over for faster drivers, and i even have "keep it clean / use your brakes" programmed into F6, because the amount of times i get some pudding ram me up the backside on the first corner is unbelievable....
there is some complete nobs, (nevermind noobs) about...
Shoot me a PM, if it ever gets that far I will let you know what sort of diagrams I am looking for. Right now I am just working on basic mindset stuff as a base for more detailed techniques.
The constant taps from behind is one of the most disgusting things I know. I just hate when there is a driver behind me that taps and nudges me through corners even when tere is no place to try a decent pass. It is so annoying. Of course it isn't such a big deal if it happens rarely once per lap tops but if it happens ever corner or so it just ruins the race for me. I know few racers who do this and you son't see me racing on same server with them
I'm not the greatest racer that eve lived (obviously) but it's difficult even when you have an idea of what you are doing. Yesterday I was racing on the STCC server and got into a fight with this guy for the whole race on Blackwood GP reverse. We were swapping positions at least once each lap and leaving each other enough room, at times we were both sacrificing speed through corners because that's the only way we were both going to get through them safely. Perfect. Until the last lap and the chicane before the final hairpin. I was right up behind him and he broke slightly earlier than I would have...unfortunately the little tap resulted in him going off line to the side and not having enough run off and piling into the wall. I was pretty embarrased about it and apologized instantly because it was a diamond race until that point.
He was absolutely fine about it. His words were 's**t happens'. Now thats the attitude. So many people would have instantly whipped out their 'wtf, noob!' card on that when it was an honest mistake due to slight differences in style. Usually I'd just go a bit to the side of someone to soak up any differences in braking but in that situation I couldn't and it went wrong.
I'd enjoy LFS a lot more if people had more forgiveness for mistakes and didn't start witch hunts every time someone taps them (not just against me, I get annoyed when all the chat log has in it is someone complaining). If someone wrecks my race I tend to pit in and wait for a gap in traffic and hot lap till the next one. Only if someone does something very very dumb or doesn't apologize for their mistake will I mention something and even then it's rare. IMO it can only hurt your own enjoyment of a race if you let it get to you that much. If you get involved in too many accidents on a busy server just switch to a less busy one and save yourself a heart attack.
My hot tip for Blackwood GP turn 1 is to go round the outside. Most people head for the inside and carnage ensues. You can genrally pick up a few places by sticking to the outside of the corner and avoiding that carnage.
Thing is: I have to treat the other drivers like I would (have to) in RL: Assume they are complete idiots without common sense or car control and act accordingly...
I DON'T WANT to do this... This is a racing game ffs! You're virtual racing drivers, so act like some... I'm sick and tired of getting rammed off the track because yet another one failed to realise that when my rear end lights up, I'm braking! And when I turn in, the chance of getting by on the inside is gone tenths of metres ago!
People NEED to be educated on those things, better sooner than later...
My hot tip for Blackwood GP turn 1 is to go round the outside. Most people head for the inside and carnage ensues. You can genrally pick up a few places by sticking to the outside of the corner and avoiding that carnage.[/quote]
no way!!! always go to the inside, if there was a pile up, then all the wrecked cars are likly to go to the outside!
If someone punts me off once, whatever the circumstances, its a 'racing incident'. If he punts me off twice, then its clearly deliberate. Three times and its my own damn fault for not recognising the pattern....
lol oh so true... I remember then time back long ago when wreckers were everywere. People use to bitch and moan about them, but at the time i found it a fun game just avoid then and continue my race as if they were just a moving chicane. Realy pissed them off and gave me some great practice as defensive driving.
One thing I do to train myself and others is once I am the victom of an incident I will usealy catch back up to the slower drivers and practice close racing with them. i know I can out brake them and have more control so I can race closer and learn to anticipate their moves which is good for training the reflexes. It also has the benifit of showing the slower/newer driver some close hard and fun racing, lets them experance some pressure and most often they thank you for the great race afterwords.
That's what would make sense, but remember we're talking about some real fool LFS drivers here. My experience with the FOX on AS Club leads me to the same conclusion as the guy you quoted, which is to say around the outside of T1 is often the way to go. Seems there's always a few guys who charge to the inside without bothering to look, so they tap someone's front end and spin them around. Cars behind then plow into the spun car. Since the turn is so slow though, I usually don't have any problems with cars spinning to the outside.
I have some good replays of me braking ridiculously late (30-40m) before T1 at AS Club, hugging the edge of the track on the outside and passing 10+ cars. Once I went from 22nd to 3rd by the end of the first lap because no one could seem to keep it on the road. And I was intentionally slow for the whole lap in order to be as clean as possible.
Excellent post, Hockquan. I would enjoy racing with you very much. I have had many races like that, both swapping positions lap after lap to cross the finish in a drag race to the end, and with those unfortunate final lap instances where someone or both are crashed out. Those instances are not noob mistakes, they develope from a very hard fought race.
The absolute best racing I have ever done was on the CRC demo server back a bit previous to the new physics patch. On a demo server you say? Yes. Reason being is, usually it was flooded with S2 licensed racers and usually 5-8 of us had admin rights on the server. That kept the demo wreckers out very quickly and left the demo drivers who wanted to race in. Very excellent racing with both the S2 guys and the demo guys who we wanted to come back night after night. Many laps of swapping positions and side by side racing through multiple corners without any contact. I'm talking NO overtaking, but running side by side through entire laps with these people. Everyone leaving room in the corners. About the only time contact was being made was in the BL1 chicane where both drivers would ease off to let the other one go rather than someone just plowing through. Excellent racing!
I'd call myself a Newbie (not noob) since my s2 licence is quite fresh and i'm still learning new tracks and cars (so called combos as i have recently learned). Now let me tell you a bit of what i've learned so far.
Since the chances are i'm slower than most of the people on the server, i don't rush to t1 and leave anybody that started behind me get past by using the hazard lights and going as close to the side of the road as possible.
You might say i'll end up finishing last but that shouldn't be an issue, i assume most of the drivers know the combo, probably have a good setup and are several seconds faster than me.
BUT here comes the fun part. T1 crashes sometimes get me in the middle of the pack. That's something interesting to notice if you ask me.
After that, the hotlappers start catching up to me. Now, as i'm still learning , i might brake sooner than what you're used to. Anyway, soon enough someone is behind me just before a turn. At first i've tried getting off the gas at first and then just braking progressively,slowly,so whoever is behind me notices me slowing down. This is exactly what i do in RL if i get an idiot stay right behind me.
Fortunately, most of the time i manage to get the car to slow down enough so i can take the turn safely and maybe not slow down the one behind me as much. Unfortunately, so many times i've been literally blown away into the dirt and called names.
Ok, let's say it's my fault i don't play singleplayer until i know every track perfectly and won't slow down someone. But honestly the AI isn't much of a challenge (btw, i know the ai is learning , but i'd be a lot happier if it would start smarter. the first time i set up the ai to PRO i was expecting quite a challenge).
Back to the topic now...after i get back on the track, during a 10+ laps race i usually manage to pass the one that blew me away while he's on a sandtrap somwhere flaming somebody else about not giving him way.
Guess what now. Race ends, say i'm on 10 out of 19 and 3 or 4 of the guys behind me their best lap 3-5 seconds faster. Somebody's signature "I might be slower but i'm still ahead of you" is the only thing that comes to mind.
Next thing i wanted to say...
Maybe it was you, maybe somebody else(i tend to do the same if i feel like it) but this happened to me. Well at first i thought it was someone who's faster but knows squat about passing and i tried to let them by. At first i was slowing down a LOT and finally saying "!??!?!", until i got the reply "just go already". . Racing is totally different from driving. The only 'racing' i've done in RL is drag racing with street cars. To be sure i don't get misunderstood, a bunch of friends meet up and just have fun with 90-110hp cars (cars) on a straight lane. Well , this was different , in a good way. You're right,i learned a lot from that race.This kind of behaviour should be encouraged. Also, the most interesting thing -pressure pushes you to make mistakes-. Simply being close behind somebody that could be faster if alone makes him brake very late, lock-up tires, spin around at turn exit, lots of interesting stuff.
Now, if you've read all that, you might consider answering my question. http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/Driving_Guides#Blue_Flag and RL etiquette states: If you are being lapped by a faster car: The car behind you is consistently faster than you and has managed to travel one more lap than you have. He is about to overtake you and the blue flag is displayed to warn you of his presence. In this case you are hindering his progress and must allow him to pass you as soon as it is safe to do so (you can't be expected to yield while negotiating a chicane or high speed corner) Hold your line don't fight the other car, do not make any sudden movements left or right, ease off slightly and let him pass. He is a lap ahead of you and you are not fighting him for position. You must not hold him up.
Now, as i've seen in FIA GT and as it seems logical (to me) this would actually mean you STAY on the racing line ("(you can't be expected to yield while negotiating a chicane or high speed corner) Hold your line don't fight the other car") and let him past on a straight. This is logical because if you expect the other car to go out of the racing line, you wouldn't know if 1. he WOULD let you past, or 2. which way would he go. Now, why do people stay behind me and flash their lights and most of the time spamming 'blue flag blue flag get lost' when i STAY on the line and go slower? Is there a rule i didn't read that states otherwise?
No, you read the rules correctly. It was the spammer who needs to spend some quality time with the rule book...
Your experience is in no way unique. An cool headed driver can easily start from last place on the grid and achieve a relatively high finishing place, just by driving consistently. I wish more people would realise that while single, pb laptimes give you a rush, its the total time that gives you a good finishing position.
There's no point being a few tenths off a WR, if you spend every third lap spinning your wheels on grass or gravel.
@apo3d, a very nice post from a new guy. About the blue flag, yes, you got it right. The guy behind you should make a passing attempt and that is when you let him go by lifting off the throttle or take the wide line in the ahead corner to make it easy for him.
As for this, you can try what I do. 9 times out of 10, I'll go to spectate and wait for the race to start. After you see the restart countdown and see the grid set on the track, join the race then. It will put you in the final position and it's easier on everyone rather then pulling off and letting everyone go at the start. You won't loose as much time starting in the back to begin with as you do by pulling off and waiting for everyone to pass and the other racers won't have to dodge around you. I do this often because there isn't many experienced guys left on the public servers in the US. Nothing more boring than being 3 seconds faster than everyone and starting the race on the pole.
I've only been playing for a couple of weeks now, and I just got through all the training courses.
Should I now pick a car/circuit and start hotlapping to improve my times/driving, or are therer servers I can go to? ie. newbie servers where you can learn and don't get hammered into the ground if you end up hitting someone... :-)
. Racing is totally different from driving. The only 'racing' i've done in RL is drag racing with street cars. To be sure i don't get misunderstood, a bunch of friends meet up and just have fun with 90-110hp cars (cars) on a straight lane. Well , this was different 
, in a good way. You're right,i learned a lot from that race.This kind of behaviour should be encouraged. Also, the most interesting thing -pressure pushes you to make mistakes-. Simply being close behind somebody that could be faster if alone makes him brake very late, lock-up tires, spin around at turn exit, lots of interesting stuff.