Actually it's pretty much the same thing with the simbins demos which include the starforce system. Even if the majority has no problems with it, some people will just not tolerate the sf "infected" games.

And if you hear about some guys talking about some relatively good racing game and you haven't heard from it before sure you get interested. But what happens when you hear you must register to play it online? Why do I need to register? Why should I give my personal information to someone I don't know? I just recently tried the VRC demo and you need to register to be able to play it. (Although the registeration is a breeze you still need to give some personal info about yourself). I just sat long time there thinking whould I give my name there...after while decide not to. Why? Just seems overly stupid that you need to tell the dev team who you are to just try the game. So not this to LFS, but a player name registration to be able to play it online, why not?

Just don't ask too much personal questions and it's fine? And to make it smooth you should be able to register your copy inside LFS!

I also like to race on demo servers quite often, because I have friends there, just like someone already mentioned here. From my experience the most annoying problem is the wrecker getting your nick (exactly with all the colors etc), which makes it impossible to pick him for ban. So the most important thing would be the unique nickname.
While all previous suggestions (and I liked some of them alot!) ask devs for adding functions, this one actually needs to take one feature out: change the nickname in demo licence.
Dude downloads the demo, starts it, game asks him to choose his nickname, explaining he will not be able to change it without reinstalling the demo, and suggesting to be creative since there is no existing nick check to avoid getting ANY of your dear very important user information.

What do you think?

I think thats a very good idea. :up:

Heh, actually good and pretty simple

Although I guess dedicated wreckers would also find a way to rejoin quickly after being banned, but it would bring some improvment already. And is quick to implement. I like.

I also agree, a unique nick for each demo installation would act as some deterrent. And although an email address is easy to supply these days, it might act as a further deterrent.

As for suggestions of compulsory training before being allowed to play online, no amount of training will prevent an idiot from acting like an idiot. The problem with these guys isn't that they can't handle their car, they're having trouble handling puberty.

No matter how restrictive the demo is, the devs can not prevent people from being disruptive. The anonymous stature of players leaves the door open for disruptive play and this occurs in many online games. Without paying for a license (and by doing so, making an investment) some demo players may feel that they have nothing to lose by being disruptive.

No Gunn, see it this way: the training would be a well disguised method of delaying the access to online play.

Sure the training wouldn't help much for those unwilling to learn, but that's not even the intention. It would make it much more of a hassle to wreck because you'd have to 1) reregister, and 2) go through that "long" training again just to wreck someone else and get banned again. Right now it's "wreck, get banned, change nick, join again, wreck, ...". Now if "change nick" is replaced with the process of registering again and doing those training laps, it would be a HUGE deterrent.

Also, if this training is something similar to the "overtake AI without contact" thingy (which would need some improved AI though, otherwise it would suck and get good players frustrated) the wreckers would have a very hard time because they don't even have the skill to complete these laps quickly.

Ahhh AndroidXp, thanks for understanding everything perfectly The idea
here is to find solutions to the bad image of online racing. This is what i
understood the whole thread was about.

Vykos, when you say " think about it: Any regulation to the demo will
decrease the use of it, and the sales." Well, precisely, i HAVE thought
about it and that very sentence seems to contradict itself. The USE of
the demo IS the problem, some people USE the demo INSTEAD of buying
the full game, this is where it is NOT increasing the sales. I read more
and more about how demo is not helping LFS by giving it a bad name.
So, is it the very fact that sales are affected by this that you contest,
or is it because you are not a demo user and haven't witnessed this?

We have to separate popularity and sales here. I can tell you first hand
that people will love you if you give 'em stuff for free, that's obvious. Take
LFSTweak for example, many people like the app, but i don't get any more
respect from some and make no sales. LFSTweak wasn't more usefull for
LFS sales than the demo but in a way both are good at showcasing the
potential of LFS. LFSTweak was a popular download that reached the 1000s
in the first weeks it was posted, yet, it generated no 'sales' per say, and
the impact on LFS sales is hard to calculate. How many of those do you
think decided to buy S1-S2 knowing they could also tweak those cars ?

I'm curious, would you guys make LFSTweak work for demo or not ?
(i'm not asking if you like LFSTweak btw, just imagine you have no other
choices). Anyone here think it might be partly responsible for a certain
crowd sometimes causing problems ?

The demo does a great job of showcasing LFS, the question is is it
fullfilling it's primary goal which is to promote sales ? We need graphs !! lol

AndroidXP understood exactly my intentions and i'm happy to see he
noticed how i tried to tie everything together as simply as i could. Yes, i
said it, it's not perfect, nothing ever will be so let's settle that from the start.
Now the whole reason there IS this thread is because some people believe
there IS a problem. Now is it the very existence of this problem we should be
questioning or is this one of those "things are like they are, nothing you can
do about it" ?!

IMHO, the best way to stop wreckers is to force the training to "unlock" multiplayer mode. I've spent ages trying to do the race without crashing level on keyboard, and failed, I also tried again with my mouse, and found it hard, yet possable. That'd be probably one of the best ways to stop wreckers, but also might stop some people using MP and might prevent sales. But then how many might it generate.
Some guys I talk to in IRC noticed that my xfire has been showing me in LFS for the last few days, so they decied to try it. But then I noticed that they found a crack for the game and decied to use that over buying a copy. So just there there have been 20 sales that wont happen, unless one of them decieds they like the game so much they have to buy it. Chances of that are slim to none though =/

But if the person playing the demo (knowing it's a sim and not an arcade game) would know what to expect if they was serious about getting the game, and in most cases would have the skill, or hardware (wheel) to complete it, try out MP, and buy the game (or just run a few races on SP). I never played MP all the time I had the demo (s1 and s2), and I only decied to try MP a few days ago, and found it kicked so much ass. I was more then happy just with the AI, which is part of what sold me the game (the other part being I wanted the locked goodies).

And just another idea (not sure how well it'd work). Because the game gets so many bad reviews, how about a reviewers account, which is avilable by reviewing sites, if they e-mail (sign up or something) requesting a reviewers account, which will last x ammount of time, and after that time will expire, so they can't pass on the details. That'd help win the review battle (if it'd work, I have no clue how well, or how open to abuse it'd be, maybe make it manually operated or something).

Just another random idea, but would it be possable to prevent anyone but licence holders from getting the full version, and put in some sort of value in each licence holders download so it is unique to them, so if they hand it out, you know which account to delete. Gah, random crap. I should be sleeping right now. Got lectures at 9am.

I was thinking, why not have both ?!

1- Open-Demo servers, with no restrictions or stats.
and
2- Registered-Demo servers, with license and registration requirements.

Surely, no2 could also give a better idea of full version registered servers.
Also, like this, both are happy since wreckers still have a playground once
they get banned a few times from registered servers...where they'll meet
up with other wreckers who just got banned and they can wreck together.
Then they'll have children and live happy ever after, see how it all works out ?

Many games use similar ideas and do just fiiiine. America's Army being the first
that comes to mind when it comes to rigorous pre-online testing, but it's full
version and free. Punkbuster is also found on most games and there you
can select between 'checked' and open servers.

I'm just trying to find ways to please all, i should know better

Quote from Fonnybone :

...
The demo does a great job of showcasing LFS, the question is is it
fullfilling it's primary goal which is to promote sales ? We need graphs !! lol
...

You can't get any graphs without changing something first. Nothing in the structure of demo registration/usage has changed whatsoever. Nothing to show on the graphs only the same old thing.

As for the subject: I completely agree with the need of restrictions. Even tho I bought S1 and then S2 as well, I got a glimpse of the mayhem in the pre-S2 times. I simply did not play.

If my first meeting with LFS would have been on a server full of idiots, I'd have simply gone away: NOT BUYING IT because of the wreckers.
So I don't believe it's increasing sales, I think it does exactly the opposite.
(the demo itself is a must, I agree to that, but the things going on on those demo servers...bah it's criminal)

So I think the one nick (one account) per demo thing is very good, especially coupled with the need of unique email and the need to re-install (or buy) to get a new nick!

This would probably slow down the wreckers. May not eliminate them, but that's probably impossible without personal intervention and a nice big gun....

Altho a wrecker can still go from server to server, have his fun for the day and start again the next day: vote bans are 24hrs long only afaik

Quote from AndroidXP :

No Gunn, see it this way: the training would be a well disguised method of delaying the access to online play.

Why do you want to delay access to online play? A person who has just discovered LFS will want to see if it lives up to it's reputation as a great online sim. But you would have them train first? Say goodbye to a large portion of potential players who will never complete the training and therefore never find out about LFS.

Troublemakers are are like electricity, they will go to the path with least
resistance. If LFS creates enough resistance, they might look for easier
ways elsewhere.

Gunn what do you suggest, i mean, you are good are taking things apart,
but we are looking for solutions. Why is it so important the difference in
seconds it takes to try the demo? I'm just not sold on the idea that it
automatically translates to sales. In fact, a few of us here disagree.
Read my previous post, it might not had been up when you posted.
There are ways to make both sides 'work'.

"Say goodbye to a large portion of potential players who will never
complete the training and therefore never find out about LFS."

Are there facts to support this ?

Facts? Tell me what percentage of demo players have been guilty of deliberate disruption?

There is no complete solution. A few bad reviews written by ignorant amateurs will not bring LFS to its knees. Should decent people suffer a delay in trying the demo because of a handful of idiots? People are confusing two issues here. One is deliberate disruption (wrecking etc) and the other is inexperienced driving (innocent mistakes that cause accidents). These two issues are unlikely to share a common solution.

On demo you can fully expect your fellow racer to be unskilled and unknowing of racecraft. Most of these people only know online gaming from FPS and role-playing games, some have played arcade racers like the GT series but LFS is their first simulator. So some chaos is par for the course, but this is not wrecking, it is the reality of the rookie racing world. Since ALL demo users must accept that they race in this environment, and new players will keep on arriving, attitudes aren't likely to change any time soon and perhaps that is how it should be.

We all have been frustrated or annoyed at disruptive behaviour and we all feel like some action will appease us so we welcome changes that seem to address the issues. But do they? We can not stop disruptive people from wanting to be disruptive but we can identify some things that allow this activity to flourish. One of the things I would urge people not to identify as disruptive behaviour is inexperienced driving. One of the things that we can be fairly sure of is that the anonymous stature of a demo racer breeds mischief. The fact that they have not made an investment is another detractor from their commitment to being civil online. Well we can't make them pay for the demo (even though it trumps many fully working titles in its own right), but we can perhaps take steps to make them less anonymous, as stated in some previous posts, and make them easier to ban.

Training naughty boys and girls to drive better will probably not erase their mean streak towards others if that is their nature. If any measures are taken to reduce disruptive behaviour they should not detract from the normal function or the appeal of LFS. They should not stop decent people from trying the software right away. A demo should demonstrate major features, graphics, sound and playability etc. When I try a game demo I am looking to make a decision on that game right then and there. I won't be playing a demo for several weeks or months, the reason I downloaded a demo was to try the game. A poor demo does not allow you to try all of the main features and these are frustrating as I'm sure most of us will attest. A real demo like LFS has gives you the chance to see how this sim really is. You can jump in right away and sample the physics, the online playability and test most things right away. Now that's a comprehensive demo and in my opinion will attract sim racers regardless of demo server antics.

The wrecking in Demo servers is really annoying, as I happen to run i nto at least one every time I jon a public emo server nowadays.

I agree that registering (especially with a valid e-mail adress) will stop many people from playing.

I agree too that wreckers leave many possible customers quite frustrated and not in the mood tobuy LfS.

So, what if we had a rudimentary registration for demo users? Like when you click on multiplayer, you get a dialog which asks you to chose a name, a password (and a confirmation field) with no need to give away any personal info. If this would then be stored in the registry, simply unzipping the game folder again would not give you the opportunity to rechose a name and password.

Another aproach: server admins can set certain training lessons to be completed to be able to join. If you try to join one of these servers, you will be automatically redirected to the particular training. That way, we could have slightly protected public servers and the "run'n'gun" ones.

Quote from Fonnybone :

Vykos, when you say " think about it: Any regulation to the demo will
decrease the use of it, and the sales." Well, precisely, i HAVE thought
about it and that very sentence seems to contradict itself. The USE of
the demo IS the problem, some people USE the demo INSTEAD of buying
the full game, this is where it is NOT increasing the sales. I read more
and more about how demo is not helping LFS by giving it a bad name.
So, is it the very fact that sales are affected by this that you contest,
or is it because you are not a demo user and haven't witnessed this?

See, yourself are just putting it up: registration will make the demo more useful for registered user, why should he buy S2 then? And you even decrease the number of possible players. I also wonder where you read bad infos about LFS Demo etc. The only place I read about it, is here, and then people get the good answer: "Go, buy S2, no wreckers there!". Besides the fact, that the sales going on well (germany increased from 19.8 to 20.5% in the license pie over last 2 months ). If people start thinking, how they can get better and cleaner races in the demo, they can even put up private servers or go and buy S2. Dont change the current system, instead of killing your brain with thoughts about it, you all should go visit demo servers from time to time and tell them how great S2 is

I gotta agree with Vykos, this subject comes up regularly and there just isn't any real solution to this problem.

Quote from Vykos69 :

Besides the fact, that the sales going on well (germany increased from 19.8 to 20.5% in the license pie over last 2 months ).

That doesnt actually mean LFS sales are going well, just that you guys are taking over

Quote from Lola Popeye :

That doesnt actually mean LFS sales are going well, just that you guys are taking over

Yeah, always ze germans wanting to take everything over... I bet we austrians will be the first victims... as always

Quote from Boris Lozac :

I like to return once in a while to our demo server, because mostly there are people from my country, but because of idiots, i disconnect 2 minutes later.
So please, tell me if there is a solution for this?

Setup a private server for you and your friends on demo.. then you will have no problems.. if you want others to come and join also, post the password on the forum or pm to intersted individuals. Thought that's what CRC was doing though but doesn't seem to have happened

Demo servers are full most times Im online anyway (and I'm mostly online when LFS is at its lowest activity), so dont think it will have any impact on sales by running 1 or 2 private servers on demo for those who want clean races.. and besides there will always be some of us that just enjoy going onto demo to meet new people and encourage them in this great world of virtual racing even though at times it seems like the demo servers are full of wreckers I still often find newbie's that want to learn..

Quote from ysu :

So I think the one nick (one account) per demo thing is very good, especially coupled with the need of unique email and the need to re-install (or buy) to get a new nick!

Altho a wrecker can still go from server to server, have his fun for the day and start again the next day: vote bans are 24hrs long only afaik

The wrecker wandering across servers is a trouble, but not so annoying. Once we will have them scattered across random servers, we have won the war - occassional wrecker connects, attacks 1st racer, 2nd, (misses both ), then finally manage to hit 3rd racer going around, this racer votes for ban, 1st 2 racers tap 1, other few needed to complete the ban simply respect the decision and confirm with their votes. And the wrecker is out. I could live with this.

But look at demo servers today. Mr.Idiot not only tries to wreck people (and mostly get specced for a wrong way) but also sits in spec spamming crap, copying players' nicks to fool newbies and make them vote for a ban.... you wouldn't believe how creative and patient they are! Not to mention iDi-ots team. illepall
And if you magically manage to ban him, you must keep a close eye on any new connecting player, because it is probably him again. And be prepared for him acting like an innocent newbie for 1st few minutes, of course... sigh.


These are my demo experiences which inspired me to suggest the unique nickname - removing the possibility to change it once you enter it.

Quote from RAYfighter :

These are my demo experiences which inspired me to suggest the unique nickname - removing the possibility to change it once you enter it.

A unique nickname is a good idea atleast it will stop innocent peeps getting bad reps because of deliberate copying.. they have had registered nicks in chat progams and TS forever..

in the early demo days,I got so irritated with the idiots,that I would log ip's,Then when a dumb*** came in,and I baned him/kicked w/e,I would take his ip,do a whois on it,and block his whole ip's ip range from my firewall,Just incase he didnt have a dynamic ip,Guess that meant that his whole city coldnt connect to my server,but it sure as hell cut down on idiots,and the server would still fill up... Dont just ban,block ip blocks

Quote from Gunn :

Facts? Tell me what percentage of demo players have been
guilty of deliberate disruption?

Exactly my point, there are no facts either way !! Sigh. I can't 'prove' my
point anymore than you guys can, so we can't be sure. I just don't settle
for 'it's like that, why change it'. The fact that it's not a huge failure doesn't
make it successfull automatically. I think it could be more, but again, that's
just me, and a few others apparently.

Quote from Gunn :

Training naughty boys and girls to drive better will probably not erase their mean streak towards others if that is their nature. If any measures are taken to reduce disruptive behaviour they should not detract from the normal function or the appeal of LFS. .

Now this is where i'm dissapointed. No one said anything about training them,
the online 'license' i was suggesting was simply a way to 'waste' time so
people don't feel like registering 2-3 times a night to go wrecking. Others
simply do it once then it's done. I don't see the big deal. As long as there are
tests, might as well be on-topic, so obviously, these would be tests of online
situations. As long as they are there, might as well make them usefull.
I'm not asking for you guys to agree, but it seems you've missed the point
there. No one ever said they will magically make a wreckers behave ...
Seriously, do i come off as just a simple and naive person ?!!

On one side you don't limit anything and hope for the best, on the other
hand there could be some restrictions making it less interesting for the exact
crowd LFS DOESN'T want to attract. I don't think ANY person is good. Don't
you guys want patient people who appreciate a sim ? I mean, aren't people
who get annoyed by a simple registration already not understanding what LFS
is all about ?! I'm exageratting here, but the point is that by wanting to
attract people at all costs we risk attracting the wrong crowd also.
Popularity has a cost. Should LFS catter to it's devoted fans, or should it give
up and try to make as much money as possible ?! Again, i'm exagerating...

Quote from Gunn :

They should not stop decent people from trying the software right away. A demo should demonstrate major features, graphics, sound and playability etc.

As much as i understand this, i think it's over-simplified. One thing for
example, i don't consider people who NEED to try software right away, or
else they threaten to go, a 'decent' person, but that's something else...

It's only a matter of time before someone find's a way to say i hate babies or
something, lol. I'm not gonna reply since this is draining me and i have a real
life outside of LFS. I stated my opinion and suggestions, that's the important
part for me. I tried to make it as clear as possible what my intentions were so
you guys can think what you want at this point.

Quote :

i don't consider people who NEED to try software right away, or
else they threaten to go, a 'decent' person, but that's something else...

and you are not alone Fonnybone.

Quote from Fonnybone :

i don't consider people who NEED to try software right away, or
else they threaten to go, a 'decent' person, but that's something else.

Hmmmm? Where are these people?

Quote from Fonnybone :

I stated my opinion and suggestions, that's the important
part for me. I tried to make it as clear as possible what my intentions were so
you guys can think what you want at this point.

Everyone else here has done exactly the same thing, so where's the problem? People have varied opinions and here they are discussing them. Everyone will "think what they want at this point", that's what discussions do to a person, make them think. I don't see why you are getting all wound-up, people are just expressing their views.