quote from the sun: I was told the American pilots did not have the authority to engage their weapons, but that their confusion happened in the ‘fog of war’.
So, did they have the authority to FIRE or did they not? Anyway, somebody or some people have made a mistake. And when one makes a mistake that causes damage, a penalty must be inflicted.
Follows the pov. from someone with more experience than chair-warming.
About as simplistic and shallow as I'd expect from the media.
Well,, the pilots will be made the scapegoats for the incident. And the pilots knew that at the time; when it goes bad, they will be sacrificed for the "greater good" --- that's just the military way when dealing with the public and politicians. The breakdown was not solely with the pilots in this incident, IMHO.
Pilots don't operate on their own in a combat box. All Blue Force are supposed to be kept track of by Controllers. Obvious that location of friendlies were unknown while strike operations ongoing. The Controller confirmed no friendlies and gave the pilots the green light to attack.
I also don't know what those pilot's ROE was at that time, or what that tactical situation was for the OA. If Orange Panels were in common use by that time, and they were aware of it, then their attack while there was "something" orange on top of the vehicles, they CAN be faulted for carrying through with the attack. This was Basra in March 2003. I hit the ground in Baghdad at the end of 2003, and we got our orange panels around February, but we got everything late.
Buck Fever? Coming to the end of a patrol with nothing to show for it?
It should also be clear that communications were about as screwed up as it normally is.
Friendly Fire happens. If you take every step to avoid it at all costs, you end up still losing soldiers to indecision and indecisiveness and become combat ineffective. It is to be avoid. You take steps to avoid it. But it still happens. It's called combat.
But most people will just see the video, maybe an official PR press release, and the video of justifiably anguished family paraded forth by the media bottom feeders and lawyers. They won't hear the testimonies of anyone else associated with this. They won't get the details. They will consider what is happening in the context of 2007, not March 2003. But the pilots will be crucified in the public media machine for ratings and circulation more than anything else.
And if you haven't been in a combat environment: you're opinion don't count. Sorry.... it just doesn't in my book. No offense intended.
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And another:
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I empathize with the pilots, but I'm afraid the tape clearly shows it's their responsibility here.
It's a saturated environment. The A-10 guys are working through the ANGLICO to adjust artillery fires. Meanwhile they're processing a second a target. There's also confusion on both sides about what other air traffic is on channel. (Or maybe not confusion, just plenty of other traffic)
So they spot these vehicles and wonder if they're friendlies. Among calls for the other target, they ask if there are any friendlies in the area. The ANGLICO says no, and they're not convinced. They call again. Eventually, based on the ANGLICO's information they "normalize" the cognitive dissonance, and decide those panels are orange rockets.
That's not how the process is supposed to work. When "something doesn't feel right", it's often because the data on the world are in conflict. Especially in such a situation, you cannot rely on any single indicator. It doesn't matter whether you're talking about your eyes out the cockpit, the artificial horizon, or a FAC -- if you rely on a single source of information about the world, bad things happen.
As far as FACs go, ANGLICOs may be very good, but they still make mistakes. Pilots do too, and here they made the mistake of seeing what the radio told them to see, and not what their eyes saw. They made it worse by not vocalizing their dissonance to the FAC.
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so much for fair and unbiased media
not saying that we have that here either. just commenting on the state of "journalism" these days...truth or spin, run which ever will get better ratings.
At least here we were shown a big chunk of the video which made it seem more like it wasn't the pilots fault, also most people they asked saying that it was a mistake, no intention.
I'm so happy for you - but you can't even co-ordinate intel properly so as to not shoot and kill one of your allies. The problem wasn't that the pilots weren't accurate... they were very accurate... they just got given a friendly target. Hooray for technology... it means nothing in the absence of human competance.
Yeah, they're just shooting allies instead - after all, if you waste your cannon rounds on the British, when those damned Arabs come along with their RPGs and AK-47s, you can let them walk straight in Good job.
Show me where I said they are... and I'll keep quiet. I'm not simply bashing the American army, but the incompetence of the coalition forces. I'd be getting this annoyed if it was the British army who'd done it... If you'll care to notice, I didn't say anywhere that it's just the Americans that made these cock ups...
What I'm more pissed off with is the need to just highlight all the good points in the hope they'd counter the monumental cock up that cost an innocent man his life at the hands of incompetent allied forces.
Of course, you'll say "there will be mistakes." Well yes, humans will be humans, but that doesn't make it *acceptable* - it just makes it inevitable.
Sad thing from this is that one that did not do his job well will probably continue work like nothing happened and pilots are suspended or something else, even they were doing their best, well who says world has to be fair place
Media quite often takes one perspective and shows information that supports that view. So one need to be quite sceptic and specially now as naturally information we get is rather biased and very likely filtered.
Im not even going to bother replying to th84 comment, ever heard of mucking about? Anyhow as bean has said, americans DO have a history of shooting anything on the ground that looks like an army!
Never said it was a pilots fault, how was he to know?
Very sad that it happened, shame more care was not taken!
the more i think about it and the more defendant the british become.... you guys honestly.. can't argue because not only are you not in the war, you also haven't been in a war anytime soon; thus meaning God knows how many allies british have shot.. look at wars like vietnam, did we ever hear about aly kills? of course not! (we didn't atleast) and we know we didn't because the government hid it from us.. apparently
this could happen to anyone you british... just because it happened to be americans doesn't mean "ohhh retarded americans they dont know sh*t" you're wrong.. shut up... close this thread please because im sick of the british hating the americans and vice versa (and same to you jamesrowe... im tired of you flaming the americans)
everyone has a history of killing allies... EVERYONE period.
Haven't bothered reading the entire thread - the posts on this page give me a bit of the flavour....
I'll nail my colours to the mast here and say that I'm a vehement critic of US foreign policy and of the cavalier way the Bush administration approached this war. Its just a shocking example of ideology ruling, no... stamping all over rationality.
But all the same, I have to say that I feel for those pilots. I think they were let down in the field. From the video it was clear that they did everything possible to verify the target from their position. They clearly indicated that the target was a possible friendly, but were told that it wasn't possible.
Something broke between them and their ground support. That's where any investigation should be looking.
I think the pilots actions were regrettable. It's real easy to be an armchair general and criticize these pilots or try to justify their actions. But that's not going to change anything. Friendly fire has been happening in warfare since
the concept of organized combat began. I also don't think these guys should be hung out to dry for this either. That could've been you, me or even Saddam Hussein and Brittany Spears in those planes faced with the same dilema that required the same judgmental decisions to be made.
What would we've honestly done in the same situation?
LOL I Know Hussein wouldn't have done anything... He'd just be hanging around the air field....
And Ms. Spears? I wonder if she'd have her kids in the cockpit in her lap.
I dunno, a British corporal had his life taken away and that's what is really sad. But it seems noone really cares about that guy or his family.
I feel bad for the pilots too. These guys weren't being indisciminate. They really were trying to do the right thing. Now they have to live with that the rest of their lives. I just hope they don't get "made an example of" by the powers that be, just to cover up bigger mistakes and shortcomings.
Or by polititians hoping to cash in on the anti war voters.
I wonder if some hotshot ambulance chasers (lawyers) have contacted the family of the corporal to try and get a civil suit against those pilots.
Afterall, negligent homicide has a big payout factor.
it was'nt just the pilots fault but they played a big part in it, if i was'nt 100% i would'nt fire. simple, also they clearly got their positions wrong as enemy units had been seen in the area aswell as the british units, thats why he asked for a marker shot to be fired in the general area by the artillery but he didnt wait for it the ground forces and the pilots thought they were looking at the same vehicles but they were not.
and if you saw a vehicle below with orange panels/or rockets or any orange markers would'nt you make 100% sure it was'nt friendly before shooting, but they attacked.....questioned what they were then attacked again.........
finally they even admitted they made the mistake by saying were going to jail, and the orange panels are going to screw us.
You read the transcript? They were asking two or three times if there were any friendlies in that area, always denied by their controller... Besides, I want to see YOU making out any details from 0.8 to 2 km away, when travelling at a speed of couple of hundred miles per hour...
[quote=bbman;332624]You read the transcript? They were asking two or three times if there were any friendlies in that area, always denied by their controller...
yep denied but like i said, they gave the wrong positions if i understand it correctly.
Good job.
