As a self confessed rubbish LFS racer i thought until recently that the car setup only played a fairly minor role in determining a laptime.

Aside from the obvious gear ratios and wing settings (where appropriate) the other stuff remains pretty much a mystery to me.
My efforts at 'tweaking' are fairly useless since i cannot drive consistantly enough to determine the small differences between settings.
Doesn't matter i thought - since I was of the opinion that a fast driver would always beat a slow driver in the same car whatever the respective setups were (within reason).

How wrong could i be ?

On my circuit of choice i was using a modified version of the WR setup when I was kindly donated a setup by a 'frontrunner' (out of sympathy i suspect) and without changing my line or driving style i was 1.5sec a lap quicker.

My question is this - as far as is possible to say within the bounds of guesswork - what percentage of a players laptime can be attributed to the car setup as opposed to the players ability ?

I realise it's pretty much an impossible question to answer - however simply trying a new setup has breathed new life into my dented self esteem and i now can't wait to win my first race (j/k)



Oh - and would the person who's stolen my mojo from the first hairpin at Aston Club please return it (leave it in my setup folder) and we'll say nothing more about it OK ?

It all depends how bad your original setup was. I'm sure you could make a setup that loses you 30+ seconds a lap, or even makes it practically impossible to complete a lap if you really wanted to, in which case 100% of the laptime from replacing that setup would be down to the setup.

Back on sensible terms: From a reasonable baseline setup at one combo the other day I made a few adjustments that I think gained me a second, and allowed me to drive nicer lines and gained me another second over about a 1:35-ish lap. So that was about a 2% improvement, but 2% is a lot over a lap.

It depends. I think that setup will get more important when you start to close in on the WR times.
A good driver can compensate a bad setup only to a certain point. A good driver can also adapt to a different kinds of setups.
Basically what the driver does is decide which line to take and the setup determines how fast that line can be driven. So if you are a good driver you can find the right line for the current setup and on the other hand you can also achieve fast times by making the setup adapt to your line and style.

The setups from the Inferno site are the only reason I can run up front once in awhile. My own setup tweaking turns into disasters as I'm not knowledgable enough about what each setting is actually doing. I'd say setup is around 35-40%

66% skill, 33% setup, 1% luck

Yes, while skill, which includes learning the car and track from practice, is the significant factor, setups are no less than 1/2 as important as skill. Thus, I give a 2:1 ratio between skill:setup, and leave the last percentage point as luck

A good setup will not help a unskilled racer, but a bad setup will hinder a skilled racer. The racer has to build the skill, then find the suitable setup on which to exploit that skill.

Quote from NetDemon01 :

The setups from the Inferno site are the only reason I can run up front once in awhile. My own setup tweaking turns into disasters as I'm not knowledgable enough about what each setting is actually doing. I'd say setup is around 35-40%

So on an average track where your pb would be around 1:30 your setup is giving you about 30 secs advantage over a bad setup?

I'm sorry but I don't quite agree to that.

I'd say more like 5% (would be 4,5 secs on that given track) could be gained with a setup, if the previous set was at least a half reasonable one (say race_s for example).

Practice practice practice...

Setups are of course a big percentage of the ability to get into the top 3. I have found I can run in the middle of the pack quite easily with basic setups, but to get up the front you need to good sets.

Luckily LFS is great for sending setups, when I get a fast set I pass it on to anyone who asks for it, because I like knowing I am beating people because of my ability and not my setup.

Ahhh I see - I'm surprised to note that you rate the car setup as such a high proportion of the players laptime.

Perhaps the people who constantly ask for setups have a valid point then ?!

I should also have mentioned that i am assuming that a player has made some effort to obtain a reasonable setup from somewhere like Inferno before doing some tinkering.

I understand enough to know that the out of the box setups (good though they seem to be - i can drive most tracks without meeting the scenery) will never cut-it when up against bespoke setups for a given combo.

Still surprised at how much difference a different setup made to my laptimes.......

I'm starting to note that setups play a bigger part than I thought as well. Right now with a little practice I am generally WR +1.5, but bigger gap on longer tracks (like FE Black). The size of the curbs, the width of the track, how curvy it is, how long the straights are etc really make a huge difference to how the car should be set up. I've been driving the LX6 lately because of LXCC and on FE Black I was running 2:50:. Blackman (major Alien notwithstanding) was comming up on me in a turn, and though we took the same line, my car was sliding at it's limit and he gained on me in the turn like he was driving a monorail! After trying Hannu's set after the race (the other Major Alien) I was a second faster after 2 laps, which shows me just how much it really DOES matter. Now I am going to have to start learning how to tinker with setups! I am starting with Tire pressures, man what a huge difference they make!

Depends on the combo - but generally I think a setup that is comfortable to drive and can be pushed hard is very important for everyone, but further tweaking for outright speed is only useful for those with the outright speed in the first place.

Setups do make a difference when you know the track well, but a bigger influence IMO is If you won the race before, or you got a really smooth fast lap and dropped a second or so in your lap time, something changes in the way you drive that track.. Lets call It Confidence.

I have in the past sent setups to other drivers saying they are the best thing since slice bread and only noticed at the end of the race I had selected the wrong setup at the start.


Funny thing is these drivers get pb's .

it depends on the car and track. A set thats phenominal for one track could be absolutely horrible on another track. Also, just having the assurance of having a set that you know is capable of wr times helps.

so in a way, not giving out a set you know is great is like saying " i dont know if i can beat you if we have equally capable cars"

I can run reasonably consistant laptimes on a track I know well, and on say a 1 min per lap combo a good set to bad set time difference could account for about 0.5 - 1.0 sec, so around 2% setup.

I can lap within 0.5 to 0.1 of WR times in say the FWD and AWD cars on tracks I know well, although I seem to change things within my setups from race to race and maybe get a psychological boost by up to .2 of a sec sometimes. Hard to tell if its the setup or the placebo effect.

SD.

There's no real answer to your "equation". It completely depends on the ability of the driver, how un-optimal the setup is for the track, and the design of the track itself.

It's been proven that aliens can drive pretty fast times even with mediocre sets, but I'm sure in 10 mins I could make a set that wouldn't get within 150% of the WR, at some combos. Actually that's an idea, how bad can I make a set...

Edit: I'm disappointed, it's actually quite driveable. No grip, slides like hell, but controllable (limiting lock to 9 degrees would just be evil). Could prove an interesting reference point if someone wants to take it seriously at something like FE Gold or Black. Of course it's more likely a huge waste of your important time...

Controller also affects how fast one can drive with setups that are not balanced.

With little steering degrees (180'-270') it is practically impossible to spin without driving over grass while exiting a corner hard, or get punted by another vehicle. Try your 'feels ok' setup with the car's real lock and you will notice that the setup is everything but in balance to be competitive.

It is possible though to create a setup for cheap wheels that is in balance, but it requires much more careful testing because you will keep missing the little quirks that would show easily with more lock.

Quote from teaz-R :

So on an average track where your pb would be around 1:30 your setup is giving you about 30 secs advantage over a bad setup?

I'm sorry but I don't quite agree to that.

I'd say more like 5% (would be 4,5 secs on that given track) could be gained with a setup, if the previous set was at least a half reasonable one (say race_s for example).

Practice practice practice...

Why are you relating percentage to seconds? If that's the case then your 5% setup gives 95% ability. Which with your reasoning means you get a 95 second advantage. Makes no sense. These percents have no correlation to seconds.

Quote from Bob Smith :

There's no real answer to your "equation". It completely depends on the ability of the driver, how un-optimal the setup is for the track, and the design of the track itself.

Exactly. Yesterday I tried someone's FOX/AS Club set and picked up 2+ seconds on my FIRST hotlap with it. Low 1:05s down to mid 1:02s. Just like that. I couldn't stay tight on the last turn with my setup and carry speed to the finish. Most likely, i got lucky and found someone with similar driving styles AND similar controller input.

The day before i tried a BF1 setup (from someone quicker than me) and couldn't break the minute mark at BL GP. I couldn't trail brake, i couldn't get the rear to stick, turn in was weird, my tyre temperature was inconsistent, etc., etc...Who knows, maybe the setup was designed for a mouse and not my wheel?

Point being, there are too many unknown variables in determining how well someone does with a certain setup to accuratley predict how that certain set will help/hurt your times. Find a set you like, and stick with it. Take the time to change one little thing at a time, be consistent, and even if you are not that fast, you'll start to notice the difference...

Oh and Bob, thanks so much for all your input to this sim/forum. We've all learned quite a bit!

Setup does have a huge effect, when you're already a fast driver. If you know the car you are driving like your pocket, and also know the racing line, the better your setup is, the better times you will get. That's a given. Just by tweaking tire pressure and wheel camber, I took .75 second off my lap record in preparation for next week's race, and I'm pretty confident with a little bit more tweaking to improve stability and grip, I can take maybe .2 more off of it.

Of course, racing conditions are different, but then again, I discovered you need to clock in around 10 PBs in a short time to grasp the lines and exactly how a track is supposed to be taken. Then it just becomes a matter of refining your driving.

***edit***

I just want to add that if you're racing for more than 15 laps, or roughly half an hour, the faster drivers are those who are putting the most work in their tire setups. That's how I manage to stay in front. I spend two weeks getting the perfect tire setup, so that come race day, I can qualify with my race setup, and clock my race laps as fast as my qualify laps. The people who are qualifying with less durable sets get waaaay slower during the races, and I can keep up the pace from start to finish with incredible lap time stability.

Quote :

The people who are qualifying with less durable sets get waaaay slower during the races, and I can keep up the pace from start to finish with incredible lap time stability.

That's one problem with Inferno sets..I believe a lot of them are WR sets made mostly for hotlapping 1-2 laps. On 10+ lap races my tires are burnt to a crisp and my times drop drastically. Very good point you have in making a good tire setup.

both are important. in my opinion.
nice to see you guys.I am from china.

I'm going to say that it depends on both, skill and setup. You have to be in the skill level to be able to adapt your driving to a "fast" set. If you can not adapt, then WR sets or sent sets do nothing for you. That is where you need to be able to tweak sets on your own to adapt the set to your driving, rather than adapting your driving to the set.

I think this question poses to fine of a line to draw a conclusion on putting definitive percentages on skill and setup. I can't improve by using the WR sets or really fast loose sets, but just a couple of clicks of the mouse here and there and it is tuned more for my driving style. But like many others who have been around here for years, I could decently drive a rubbish set that would send a new guy off in the grass at every corner.

My disclaimer is, I consider myself a non-fast driver. I'm nowhere near WR times and as I improve, so does those world records. If I gain a second in my PB, I'll check the WR and see that it has gained a second since the last time I checked, hehe. Though I do find that I seem to be in a world of my own. I'll get smoked by the top 2 or 3, but yet, there will be quite a gap behind me. Has to do more with being in the US with very few racers compared to across the Atlantic I think.

For me,

Driving with fast guys helps bring down your times quicker than setups alone, even though they blitz me i can always pick up time by following for as long as possible and get shown the right line rather than what i think is the right line.

But a stable setup helps bigtime, one where you can "drive" the car not just keep it on the blackstuff.

I,m not a quick driver ,i raced in a 72 lap FO8 event on monday night and dropped over 5 seconds from my best qualifying lap just following the faster guys and gettin into the groove i guess

I also think so,It is impossible for you run very fast without a good setting.

Way to many variables to decide a concrete figure regarding the % setups are towards your final laptime.

As said, it really depends on how bad your original setup was in the first place, and what "exploits" the fast drivers are using.

I think of myself as a fair to middling driver, and setups do make a slight difference, but not a huge amount, I would say setups help more towards consistancy rather than out and out laptimes.

I also think its physcological, if you think you have a great setup then you will drive faster.

That said, I was racing the UF1000 at Aston Cadet recently with a personal setup, and was lapping nearly 2 seconds off the leaders, when I recieved the leaders setup, which was incidentally the inferno set, I discovered the main reason for this 2 second gap was the fact that the inferno set was using hybrid tyres rather than roads.

I would say to anyone that it is worthwhile learning what does what in a setup as you can then tune it to your driving style, but untill you do much longer races than are in most pick up and play LFS races, the inferno sets will probably serve you well enough.

And if you can get within 101% of the WR with the WR set then its you thats the defining factor, not the set

The question must simply be how much difference can a setup make? Not what percentage of a laptime is Ability and what percentage is Setup.

Default setup vs. any setup being used online = Huge difference 5-10%?
Any setup being used online vs. WR setup = Insignificant most of the time, the WR setup might even actually be slower! <1%

Unless you're using default, no setup will magically make you much faster.