Bob, if I understand that graph right, it's too advanced for GT's physics.

Hyperactive, I mean that once I had the top speed ratio(s) set, I'd remember where in each corner I needed this or that much power, and would map the remaining gear ratios to the power curve to match my lines and throttle input through said corners. Being able to do all this with just that one graph is what I meant to point out as proof of its usefulness.
But what I remember doesn't matter. That graph that everyone agrees would be a useful addition to the setup menus is what matters, and it's in GT1.
So, all that's needed is for someone with the game to take a screenshot of it.

I guess it might have looked something like this:

Interesting... although I can't see how that becomes more useful when the power and torque curves are plotted underneath.

Like I said, I don't remember what the engine output curve(s) were/was. That sketch is just a guess from about ten years ago.
I only remember I could scale each ratio to have X amount of power as early or late as wanted on maximum throttle, which was enough in GT.

The engine output curves were visible int he tuning menu on GT2, and in GT1 as well and changed when you changed the boost on your turbos

Here are teh pics from GT1 and GT2.
1st pic is from GT1, the gear ratios set up
2nd pic is from GT2, gear ratios again
3rd pic, GT2, turbo choosing bling blong menu

I haves no digital cameras so my mobile telephone had the honour to capture "the moment". The ones with eyesight can also spot my handsome silhouette from the pics

I'll post some LFS related stuff laters...

LOL I guess I dreamed the whole thing??
I remember specifically that I resented Polyphony for removing that graphic ever since GT2, and for playing around with the inclusion of tracks like the Route 11 Special city track, and Rome Night.

Aha, super, already got that covered.

Quote from Bob Smith :

Aha, super, already got that covered.

So you just added the vertical lines?

IIRC, Colcob mentioned that (my pic) was the style used in F1C.

Okie.

"Update"

Added few small features:
- a mirror button in asymmetric setups. A convenient way to may setups for rev tracks. To be found in dampers, springs and tyres -menus, 3 mirror buttons in total
- new gear ratio graph, time per speed (t / v). I just added because it can practically show the effects of downforce on acceleration and max speed but in reality it is not very useful. This graph also has visible shift points, maybe LFS could use preset values for the shift times for manual gearbox cars...
- ability to set parametres for brake pad/disc (=rotor/caliper?) pitstop change
- ability choose from few different engine air ducts (car dependant of course)
- renamed "fuel consumption" to more descriptive "fuel mixture". +-5% of adjustment. Adjustable in-car
- added the missing gear ratio slider for the final gear
- enhanced the side menu. Basically all the sub menus you see on the center of the screen are toggleable with the condition that only one of them can be shown at time.
- added undo/redo buttons for the setup browser
- added new setup filter: "Drift", for drift setups

Aand:
- a whole new in-pits-menu:
Basically a simple data logger showing various stuff about temperatures and wears of different parts from your last run with correct color coding. Toggleable from the left side menu. Two pages (so far :tilt.

Wow. Those screens are just information overload, IMO. For them to be effective and not intimidate novice users I think that things will have to be reorganized and any settings that are not being used for that particular screen should be hidden. For instance, don't show the controls for spinning and dropping the car when it's not visible.

I think that, as much as possible, things should be graphically represented as well. Most people learn visually, so pictures and graphs can be a big help. GTR2 has some confusing screens, but the setup screens are not bad. You can quickly and easily see where to click for wing adjustment, tire choice, etc. And there is still enough white space so that things don't get too clustered together and hard to read.

What games handle this the best and what games handle this the worst? If we look at what others have done we should be able to come up with the good and bad points of different approaches.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Wow. Those screens are just information overload, IMO. For them to be effective and not intimidate novice users I think that things will have to be reorganized and any settings that are not being used for that particular screen should be hidden. For instance, don't show the controls for spinning and dropping the car when it's not visible.

Agreed. But it is still just a nice screenie. Needs few revamps and some fine tuning . Those few misplaces and misshown (sp) controls are of course fixed as I go but sometimes I just miss things.

About the screen being cluttered - information overload I agree. But to get rid of it... You would need to design the whole layout differently. Now the setup screen also has the skin browser, event info and car info shown at the same time. There are things that could easily be separated on their own "tabs" but it would also mean the whole setup menu needs to be rebuild. Mayb it would even need new file types for LFS to save info about itself making it totally incompatible. With that in mind I have tried to add stuff and to use the space effectively but also streamline the curent menu making it a bit more usable and logical But it is just a "nice" screenie

Quote from Cue-Ball :

What games handle this the best and what games handle this the worst? If we look at what others have done we should be able to come up with the good and bad points of different approaches.

I think LFS is the only sim that doesn't use different screens (=tabs) for setup browsing, loading and saving. LFS shows all at once and that is the main thing that causes things to build up, if new stuff is added to show/toggle new things. New menu needs new sub menu to toggle stuff.

A convenient way would be to hide the less needed stuff but imho showing the info and settings at the same time (like LFS does) has its strengths over normal (GPL, nascar, GTR) type of setup system. Of course I'd create the whole basic layout differently if I had the chance but with this layout experiment I just wanted to show what all stuff could be added to LFS setup menu.

Quote from Hyperactive :

About the screen being cluttered - information overload I agree. But to get rid of it... You would need to design the whole layout differently. Now the setup screen also has the skin browser, event info and car info shown at the same time. There are things that could easily be separated on their own "tabs" but it would also mean the whole setup menu needs to be rebuild.

Good observation. I agree that the unnecessary stuff (skins, a picture of the car) are the big things that make it cluttered. Getting rid of these things or moving them to their own section could make a huge difference.

Quote :

A convenient way would be to hide the less needed stuff but imho showing the info and settings at the same time (like LFS does) has its strengths over normal (GPL, nascar, GTR) type of setup system. Of course I'd create the whole basic layout differently if I had the chance but with this layout experiment I just wanted to show what all stuff could be added to LFS setup menu.

I think that quick fixes can be good. But, in this case, I think that the amount of stuff that needs added really requires a total revamp. I think Scawen would be open to redoing the entire setup screen if he had some good ideas to work from. Coming up with the idea and visualizing it can sometimes be more time consuming than making the actual change.

Perhaps if a few of us whip up some visualizations, Scawen would consider making the changes that we want?

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Perhaps if a few of us whip up some visualizations, Scawen would consider making the changes that we want?

The way I see it, S3 will probably have new menu system and the next big GUI update is going to happen there anyways. People want new stuff with the new version and I'm sure S3 will look different, just like S2 looks different than S1.

That being said, I have my doubts whether changing the setup screen into something much better is actually all that time consuming and/or hard. As you said, the most time taking operation is the actual design, not the coding part. And after all, the setup menu is exactly the same as it was in the first version of LFS, at least 99% of it so some streamlining should be done at some point. A low priority though. However, the change would defenately be incompatible and better placed alongside with a major physics update (limiting setup options, adding new settings and rationalizing the old ones) but if the graphical interface is designed properly with the limits of LFS in mind only lack of time can really set serious obstacles...

The idea of brand new setup screen is, of course, intriguing Maybe I'll finish this and start creating new, "better" one later on. But I have my doubts whether a group of people can create one working GUI. Comparing ideas and getting honest opinions is good but forcing all ideas into one solution usually isn't. Who's idea is left out? . Having more than one people creating different versions for the devs to choose the best parts of each might be the most useful solution but I doubt if there are people interested about it. It's fun but it takes time

Just have a simple/advanced button standing clearly visible on both simple and advanced versions.

Ok, a little bump for this topic

I've been tinkering with sets lately and I really miss some kind of notepad to write things about each setup. Colour coding the names is a solution, but incomplete. Writing modifications made to the setup or flaws that need to be corrected can make setup creation easier.

When you order by name, the system parses the ^X colour codes, maybe they could be discarded to allow truly alphabetical order too.

A switch to distinguish different setups (hotlap, race, endurance) could be useful too for sorting purposes.

All has been suggested, so it's only a small bump for the suggestion

sorry for gravedigging but does anyone know if there actually had been some outcome of this?

after digging ...

wow, lots of very nice things, maybe a bit too much, especially for someone who is discovering the game. Some butons like "advanced" should allow to hide/see some of the parameters (like slow and fast settings for damping, lsd settings according to the accelrator pressure, etc ...)
Anyway, I would be plenty pleased by some graphs showing informations on engine/gearbox specs.
I would add the possibility to change tyres width/rims size too, or at least giving the information.

Nice work Hyperactive.

Yes. つ◕_◕ ༽つ give us setup.v2 つ◕_◕ ༽つ