Paddle shifters are for making the car faster consistently. They didn't suddenly have a batch of drivers that couldn't handle the H-pattern and think "christ, we're gonna have to think of something else!!" . Paddle shifters aren't "for morons", any more than a syncromesh gearbox is, it's not worse (techincally it's better, in motor racing anyway), it's just different.
I approve of any technological advance in F1 that has made the cars faster, that is half the competition after all, and a big part of what seperates it from every other motorsport on the planet. It doesn't mean I enjoy seeing it used as much as I enjoy watching drivers wrestle with the old techology.
Anyhoo, I'm glad TC is "gone" for 2008, although we'll see just how gone won't we? It will take a bit of work over the winter because the current crop are so dependant on that system. The drivers themselves say that the cars would be undriveable without it.
Oh.... only now they are thinking about including skills on the top sh!t motorsport, last 10 years of F1 have been pure LAME crapshlt, paddleshifters, TC, this and that bullshlt implemented, well its managed by FIA what am i suppose to expect... italian pussis, after Senna's era F1 will never ever neva be as good as it was those times. Fact - period
With standardilized ECUs it will be easier to control... hopefully.
Yesterday FIA also informed that slicks are not coming back in 2008. I read it from a local sports webpage so someone else might give a English link...
Now we could actually see drivers being real "drivers" and actually driving 800+ hp car by themselves instead of some computer taking over. now its pure testosterone vs real car that actually needs hands and feel to be driven
The thing is dont teams at this moment in time want to use as little TC as possible to reduce the `bogging` down effect? I guess it will be more interesting that when a driver does over step the limit then they'll have to work the pedal rather than TC kicking in to save them.
Erm... I forgot TC rewrites the laws of physics and magically increases the maximum traction available and hence allows power to be put down earlier than a correctly timed right foot movement :doh:
I think the rule states that there will be a standardised Microsoft ECU in all cars. Do you think that some form of TC will be integrated into this? Otherwise I'm ecstatic about this prospect, just hope Bernie or Mosely doesn't tamper with it.
After the paddleshifters (it costs as much to build a sequential as an H-gate IIRC and they last even longer - the engines also would last longer in case some goon accidently puts it in to first going down the long straight at Shanghai) and Traction Control (It's DANGEROUS not having TC on F1 cars. One or two years ago at Budapest GP2 became a joke as they had no TC in the wet and it was like running wearing normal shoes covered in lard on an ice rink).
Do you want F1 to be like NASCAR where they use 1930's technology? NASCAR should have introduced sequential gearboxes (it would NOT increase costs from what I hear), dual overhead camshaft engines and for that matter carbon fibre or fibreglass bodies 10 years ago.
F1 is supposed to be the top type of racing - if you want to see 1930's technology, go and watch NASCAR.
In order to ban TC, F1 should cut the power FIRST. Long may paddleshifters continue - it would be impractical and downright silly to bring in H gates to F1.
@duke_toaster:
Actually that's the same reason why I don't like things like TC in F1.
F1 is top-technology racing. And the technology devised for F1 should be applicable to normal cars.
TC helps to control the car - the engineers should think of different ways to stabilize the car. They should be thinking about suspension-improvements instead of building a virtually uncontrolable car and then fitting it with electronic gadgets until it can lap consistantly.
The F1's TC-development has no relevancy to electronic safety-systems used in road cars, thus I'd like it to disapear.
On a similar note I think F1 should run turbocharged engines for a while again. It's an important development-area that can help to improve the efficiency of road cars.
This will definitely take F1 in the right direction. And I think people will really get to see who's the better driver and who relies more on traction control to get the job done. 2008 will be a great year for F1 (not that I am not looking forward to the rest of this season).
Anyway, I think its a red herring... I want my race cars to scary things that only people with a blind spot for imminent death want to drive. Not frigging MPVs...
I think Vain is saying (did say) that the type of TC is not applicable to road cars, not to mention that road TC systems are about as good as they can be as a safety measure, if they want it "safer", they can just make it more intrusive. There's nothing to be learnt from F1 about TC (for safety applications).
Road cars in fact are quite beyond F1 when it comes to stability controls anyway imho. ESP is easily up there with ABS as a safety measure, and we don't and will never again see either of those in F1.
No shit, motorsports dangerous F1 is about as safe as it gets TBH. Given the number of F1 drivers that have very big crashes caused by stupid risk taking I don't really think that makes a lot of sense.
What possible use could Nascar have for 6 speed sequential 'boxes on anything but the 2 road courses they visit a year. Saying an H-gate/sequential cost the same is absolute bullshit, it may be that if you're spending millions for the last possible gain in the latest F1 gearbox it would make little difference but for most applications that statement simply isn't true, last time I checked the LD200 (small single seater H-gate gearbox of choice) was £3000 the equivalent sequential 'box was double that. I bet Nascars use a road casing with strengthened internals. The H-gate BMW GT cars (including the works 'ring car IIRC) all used modified versions of the production 'box (and we're only talking the introduction of straight cut and a better range of ratios for racing use with the quick changes being to the axle), the cost of a sequential gearbox is £15000 + the time to set it up. I see absolutely no point in removing an element of skill out of a series seeing as it's fine as it is.
Very very wrong there's no need to down the power F1 cars are perfectly drivable without TC atm even in the wet there are far harder cars that can still be safely driven. Motor racing is first and foremost a competitive sport, which should require skill, it's not one big technology fest I think you've failed to appreciate this. I know that in the real world paddle shifters are going to stay in F1 but go and take a look at that Senna lap and tell me that it doesn't make any Alonso/Schumacher/Hamilton recent lap look sterile in comparison.
F-1's TC is WAY superior to road car brake based TC. If only any of you here have any idea how brake systems are overtaxed, overheated and destroyed in road cars. Brake based stability control is an excellent safety idea, but brake based TC (as in brake-based control of power output of the engine)? Normal road cars are absolutely hopeless in that respect to actually controlling traction. Thank god Ferrari has perfected its E-diff and F-1 style power control TC for both race and road use for its roadable cars.
Oh, I know, let's ban brakes and allow more "skill" to shine! Oh hail to Formula irrelevant! Long live NASCAR.
Let's get one thing absolutely straight. F-1 is supposed to be the ABSOLUTE PINNACLE OF TARMAC CIRCUIT MOTORSPORT. How can you be the pinnacle of mototrsport without being the pinnacle of technology? That simply defies all logic. Not to mention how many engineering jobs are needlessly sacrificed to fatten the accounts of already financially obese jerks who run this circus. Death to the middle class (engineers and technicians that WORK for a living)! Oh hail to the financial monarchies! MUHAHAHAHA!!!!!
As if there aren't enough crazy, ignorant and passionless bafoons that want to BAN ALL MOTORSPORT. I get this "why don't we ban motorsports" crap all too often these days. Motorsport is supposed to be the ULTIMATE prooving ground for new technology. If all road car relevant technology is no longer used and perfected in motorsports, it just gives those idiots another excuse to ban motorsports.
The irony of all this is that NASCAR is going towards the F-1 spirit of things. I'm quite well aware of important trends in major mototsports and currently, NASCAR is taking more of an engineering instead of their traditional mechanical approach to problem solving. Massive increases to investments in wind tunnel and CFD testing attest to this.
If TC was banned BUT new, superior tech with much more potential such as 4WD was allowed to develop, then great, that allows both driver skill and technology to shine. Or we could simply reallow active suspension and active aero while maintaining current power levels. All these things are very road car relevant. And despite what some ignorant goons here will say, 4WD is NOT a driver aid. It simply makes better use of the available power by sharing the work among all contact patches instead of seriously overworking 2 overcooked wheels. And no, active diffs DO NOT magically make your car uncrashable. The simply maximise use of available traction and grip. If you step outside the tractiobn circle, you loose it just the same. If any of you here have real experience driving real high-powered 4WD monsters setup for NEUTRAL overall balance and no electronic stabilty and traction aids. Overcooking them just a little means 4-wheel drift (radially) that if judged wrong, will quickly land you into a pole or down a cliff. And active suspension doesn't take driver skill away. It simply allows the car to stay level for optimized aero. It does NOT magically increase the cars potential. And all this is very relevant to improing road car suspension too.
Of course, spec racing has its place, but with F-1, there's no excuse for standardized anything.
I know I'll get a lot of hateful responses for this post and frankly, I don't care as I've seen more wronger than wrong statements and insults than most of you can ever get. Celebrate the death of technology in the supposed pinnacle of motorsport as long as you can for soon over 90% of the public will deem motorsports to be as socially acceptable as smoking.
Peace man. I don't watch Nascar, and I know nothing about it. However for formula, making a to be a 4wd is extremely hard to do so. The chassis will have to re-design all over again. If F1 is made to 4wd, then all open-wheel car racing will have to be changed.
Most F1 drivers are promoting step from step, from kart to formula, whether Formula Renault, F3000, F3, etc etc. All these are rear-wheel drive, and that's formula.
For my personal opinion, banning TC is good. Too much technology or driving aids in these days to ruin one of the highest-level racing in this world. If you are selected to drive a F1, that means you're qualified to do so. There are millions of kart/formula drivers who are dreaming and working their best to be one of them. They are being selected out of millions of people. They should be able to drive the F1 without the TC. Don't get me wrong, I dun mean that they're good in all motorsports. However, their lifetime is dedicated to formula driving.
The TC of Formula 1 does nothing relate to safety of the driver. It does only increase their laptime and enhance their race in a technology way. People love to watch racers driving by their own skills. If you can qualify to be a Formula one driver, why can't you use your great skill to control the monster?
Well, just frankly speaking and expressing opinion from my perspective of way. We do need quality-discussion, but no flame war.
I'm not saying we should just introduce 4WD into F-1 just like that. It is only one suggestion for allowing one technology to develop while one gets banned. And frankly, to say power based TC is irrelevant to safety is honestly dead wrong. Power based TC's use as a performance optimizer or safety device is all callibration dependant. That's why Ferrari's manettino wheels come with snow, normal, sport and race settings.
It's not the fact that they're banning TC that riles me up. It's the propensity to ban all the road car relevant and beneficial technologies (e.g. variable intakes that could be set to both optimize power, torque and chemical energy to mechanical energy conversion efficiency) that really pisses me off. I'm fine with no ABS and TC . But to get the most out of a cars traction circle via more ideally behaving diffs is also banned (E-diff). This is just pure ludistic insanity. E-diff is also like power based TC, which can be opimized or consistant performance or safety. It's all application and callibration dependant.
The fact that they're going to allow hybrid brake regenration to create this "push button to pass" crap is really the last straw as far as I'm concerned. Never mind how production of prius batteries kill off ENTIRE echosystems around nickel production plant. never mind this new hybrid wave of environmental destruction. If we REALLy wanted clean power, we should be trying real hard to develop and perfect nuclear fusion, but do the greenies and geneal puiblic care? No.
Welcome to the new age of F-1 where like those arcade Daytona games you can just push a turbo button and WOOHOOOO I passed them! Ah crap, here comes that corner...
And no, no cost cutting excuses. Top motorsport means top dollar and the pinnacle of everything (driving AND engineering).
. Paddle shifters aren't "for morons", any more than a syncromesh gearbox is, it's not worse (techincally it's better, in motor racing anyway), it's just different.
I read it from a local sports webpage so someone else might give a English link...
maybe ill watch some then