Moose, I didn't see any Ice Hockey type fences. TBH if stadia are all-seater the fences aren't a problem - they stop idiots throwing coins on to the pitch, and so-on.
Ideally, UEFA would refuse to let ANY CL, UEFA cup, Intertoto cup or whatever game take place in a non-all-seater stadium.
Go back and read ATC Quicksilvers post. in fact here's the relevant bit
"the other Utd game where the fans were being crushed because some idiot forgot to open the gate to the seating above, so the fans climbed the fence to avoid being crushed to death...needless to say they got a savage beaten for this, and then the police fired tear gas into the crowd"
We are talking about the Lille v Man U game , at which there were clearly 10ft high fences.
What Ice hockey fences have to do with anything i don't know
It make no difference if a stadium is all seater if far to many fans are herded into too small an area. There is nowhere to go. If there is fencing of any kind then it can only end in tragedy.
Looks like stadium CCTV by the robotic jerky movement, but it shows quite a lot of what was going on in a pretty close quarter rather than zoomed right out and editted to show the 'juicy bits'.
Its not 100% how i remember things though, the charge in this website is shown in a completely different light, where the ultras are doing all the tauting and the utd fans standing behind the stewards line about 10 meters back, and then a few breaking through, but its hardly an mass charging, its more like tippy-toeing forward. As i say, that last bit definately doesnt show things correctly, im pretty sure there must have been a section off screen which broke away more aggressively in the later stages.
Theres definately clear examples of fans 'talking' with the riot police and then suddenly getting a beating for it, and bang on the 5min mark, there doesnt really seem to be anything happening, the some fans look to be yelling at the cops in anger over their actions, not inviting them or taunting them to kick-off, and yet all of a sudden the cops come forward fans start running away and the battons still continue to swing out to catch anyone they can.
That isnt Policing a situation, its just brutality.
Clearly the majority of fans are trying to calm the situ down and they're either seriously misjudging things (**** knows how, its pretty clear to see! Doesnt need any translation to get that message) as being threatening behaviour or they're just pig ignorant and feel they're above the law.
Ive not yet seen anything other than a still photo from the Spurs game, rarely turn the TV on and its hardly ever for the news
Actually no, I would never have been stupid enough to stay in the hot spot in the stadium and I have to question the motives of people that do.
Right..... I want ALL of you to be honest here, how many here say the "fans" are without blame for what happened, and I mean BOTH sides here. You see, if both sides had not acted like animals then heads would not have been cracked and I would like to see ANYONE agrue otherwise.
I think we ALL agree that 99.9% of the fans at the match just wanted to watch the match. I have to say that I believe that ALL the fans that were as close to the "divide" between the two sets of fans WANTED to be there as any normal fan would look at the situation and think "Hmmm, this is a bit f**ked up, I will move away to keep myself safe".
Do we all still agree so far? good.
Now we have got that out the way we can deal with all your "shocked" why did they do that pretence. Put yourselves in the situation of the riot squad officers.
The week before a "fan" killed a fellow officer at a match. You probably know them and worked along side them.
The fans on both sides have pushed past the grounds staff looking for a mob fight.
You are outnumbered and in fear BUT your job is to keep them apart but at least you have a big stick to keep them at arms length.
You see the human fight/flight reaction is one of THE MOST powerful human reactions. Its the same reaction that causes troops in a combat zone to destroy a car full of inocent people by mistake when they mis-read the situation at a checkpoint.
No, I am not shocked at what happened but then I look at it without emotion so I can look with CLEAR EYES.
Lets not forget, the so called "fans" triggered EVERYTHING they got. Might not be right BUT they caused it by their actions.
Am I wrong? I don't care about of the right/wrong of the police action because I can SEE WHY is happened. If they wan't to stop it happening again they have to combat the cause of the situation. In the same situation the same will happen again. There is no shock it just the way it is when you mix fear and violence.
3 simple letters
S E Y
figure it out yourself
not only are you wrong, your a bloody idiot! people with your attitude should just remove yourself from the Gene pool for the sake of humanity!
You know humanity right, compasion... no?
'The week before a "fan" killed a fellow officer at a match. You probably know them and worked along side them.'
Yep, and what better way to make ammends for that as to attempt to even the score with a foreign teams supporter apparently.
'The fans on both sides have pushed past the grounds staff looking for a mob fight.'
And both stared each other through the Plexiglass giving each other the finger and pretended they're berti big bollox. The dibble did sod all to calm events, they basically threw petrol onto an volatile situation, and when it got nasty figured the best thing to do was throw some more on!
'You are outnumbered and in fear BUT your job is to keep them apart but at least you have a big stick to keep them at arms length.'
You are outnumbered but have about 60 other batton weilding maniacs hell-bent on hitting as many people as they can see.
There are 2 sets of fans there, a set of foreign fans and a set of locals.
Its well known that European coppers are absolute mongs (havent used that word for a while, im going with it!) and are nothing more than prehistoric club weilding cavemen trying to hit anything that moves. So, what do you do, put the coppers on the side of the barrier where they are with someone of the same nationality and way of life, or do they put the on the side with the foreigners who apparently fear for their lives who might shock-horror ask for some medical help after half a dozen of them just t**ted their mate while he's going back to the designated area, and having seen Johnny Foreigner ask for help confuses the concerned figure as being the son of satan and figures theres only 1 thing that can solve this problem.
They are Grade-A morons, that is their profession, they are to CONTROL riots, not help create them, not attack people currently causing no threats to anyone.
If someone is doing something that needs to be stopped, then you use the force that is deemed ACCEPTABLE, you dont just make the rules up as you see fit, they are supposedly trained professionals, and if it was any other situation except a football match it seems to me that you'd have a completely different attitude.
Fans charged, and for all of 10sec max basically screamed and shouted at each other, there was no attempt to stop it, there was no warning, no Plan A, B or C, it was straight in with the weapon and give everyone a damn good beating, whether that was required at the time or not, and if you feel that is acceptable then thats the disgraceful world you must live in.
Some fans are idiots, that doesnt give the police to retaliate in an even more idiotic manner.
There were 2 catalysts from that match, the Roma fans charging and taunting the Utd fans and them reacting to that. That wasnt going anywhere, and looking at it never would have either.
THEN in came the cops to apparently do their job of controlling a riot situation with about an EQUAL amount of fans doing something stupid. One set had battons, the other set were about to get 7 shades of s**t knocked out of them.
I dont think anyone has suggested that the fans were all angels, however the way things were handled you just seem to happily suggest that it was completely justifiable for the circumstances, hellbent on saying the fans only have themselves to blame for SOME fans being stupid, so collectively its tough cookie if you try and protect a fellow fan and you get a batton round the head.
I did not dispute ANYTHING you said in your post just then about the situation. I have also not said it was RIGHT that the police clubbed people as they did.
But that said, looking at the situation and looking at HOW people react in situations I can SEE why it happened. But you didnt read that in my post because you didnt want to.
We BOTH agree that BOTH sets of fans are to blame. They STARTED the situation. NO DISPUTE HERE.
We BOTH agree that certain police are KNOWN to use violence and were given big stick to use. NO DISPUTE HERE.
Why are you so shocked what happened, I just don't get it. The WHOLE situation was a train wreck waiting to happen.
I hate Man Utd, cause they are Liverpools rivals, and cause they also, stole our nick name. Lots o people like Man Utd, while all the 'Pools fans and players hate them!
Back on topic, I don't think this would have happened if the Plexi fence wasn't there, i mean if it wasn't i don't think the Roma fans would have rushed over towards the Man U fans. Most Roma fans had the 'bottle' to do what they did because they were just going over to flip people off and slam their hands on some plexi, same go's for the reaction of the Man U fans.
If the two sets of fans were separated by two lines of stewards with some empty rows of seats between them, i don't think it would have happened.
BTW, i'm not BLAMING the fence here, it's just an observation.
Mmmh, did English television show the whole footage? (comprehensive of security cameras?)
They showed yesterday on italian news, and i think police have behaved well.
MU fans first attached "stewards" (WTF?) of the stadium, then police took a mild charge to them, and they disperse them, then like 10-20 policemans find them self surrounded by a huge crowd of MU fans, and i mean surrounded.
What MU fans do? Attack police obviously!
Then started the big charge. I really think police didnt do anything bad, despite dont think of a retreatment plan after the first charge.
I will try to search for a link of the footage that i seen yesterday on tv, but i think it will be with italian commentary.
Oh btw we have hooligans too, a policeman has already been killed at the beginning of the year, so italians, english or whatever country if you go in a stadium to make caos you deserve a beating, and if you attack police you deserve a double beating.
Find it.
You have to choose the 5th video on the left.
It's titled "Il prefetto: basta polemiche..." 06/04/2007.
After the Roma goal, Roma supporters run at the plexiglass to taunt MU fans.
Then "stewards" (right word?) try not to let both fans go to the plexiglass barricade, then police enters to protect stewards attacked by MU fans.
Then some policemans find themselves sourrounded (too far from the gate) by MU fans who start to trow them bottles, seats (?!) spitting... etc. then hooligans "chiefs" send the order to the "troops" to attack police (the hooligans chief has been identified by security cams videos police says).
Police then charge and beat those "fans". http://www.video.mediaset.it/v ... ria=servizio&from=tg5
Still it's not the entire video, but as for now it's the only one i founded.
Yep, watched this and others and it does appear the worlds press has been VERY selective with their clips. Most show the initial rush then the people with blood on them. Not the bits that really show the "so called fans" in a
bad light.
Bloody Media guppy!
Instead of watching Cut & Paste Italian media stories trying to put things in an Anti-English Hooligan spin, open your eyes and wake up! http://mediacenter.corriere.it/Media...0-0003ba99c53b
ITALIAN website, No cuts, No spin, just raw footage which is indisputable and undefendable!
No steward was 'attached' or attacked either, they come through a 1 man wall of stewards stood on 1 in 3-5 steps, hardly a wall, and hardly any need to attack them to get through to the divider wall. So no stewards were attacked!
Then the police do a mild batton swinging session, see how much needless blood can be spilt of the people walking away from the center of the incident.
The coppers, who'd decided to continuously beat the people on the ground defenseless, who'd caused things to escalate were then getting abuse shouted at them from the fans, most of which appear to be with people who'd just had the crap beat out of them!
There isnt a moment where a 'huge crowd of MU fans' surround the cops, and if they did, SO GOD DAMN WHAT? Beat the crap out of them?? If someone starts attacking them, then thats inexcusable, but instead the Riot Control police fire the first bullet!!
Can i also remind you that this is a football ground, and half of the fans 'surrounding' the coppers are in there god damn seats they've paid to be in! The riot police are the ones placing themselves right in the middle of the trouble, they made NO attempt to retreat and lower the level on intensity, instead they stay put in with the fans when theres plenty of room on the right hand side where they were originally.
" What MU fans do? Attack police obviously!"
You sad, sad little boy! Thats exactly what they were doing wasnt it, it wasnt running away from the stupid idiots put there to CONTROL RIOTS who were swinging their battons at anyone within arms reach, of course it wasnt!
Utd fans didnt start the initial smalltime charge, Roma fans did.
Utd fans didnt start fighting or attacking anyone first, Riot police did.
Utd fans, rightfully p*ssed off ones at that, yelled abuse and in some cases asked for medical attention, and got the crap beat out of them for doing so by the people employed to KEEP THE PEACE.
The Utd fans *Played their part* however NOBODY deserved an ounce of what those Italian pigs were dishing out. You cant throw the first punch as a peacekeeper with battons vs a load of p*ssed off supporters who've just seen them kick lumps of cr*p out of their fellow supporters for no justifiable reason. Its that simple!
Woz:
Selective, sure, but you only need to look at the CCTV footage which is unedited and shows things without prejudice, and its clear as day.
I read your post, and every single point you had to make was based on the fact that the Fans started it, at NO point do you suggest that it WASNT justifiable, your basically laying the blame on the Fans because they made the first move, that move DIDNT justify what they received, but apparently your more interested in consistantly blaming the fans.
'So you are saying that the behaviour is fine?'
What, acting like a bit of a d*ck through a sheet of plastic, no mate thats absolutely scandalous and each one of them should be lined up an executed, clearly 'give it all that' is shocking and im only assuming that the world media have been zapped 'MIB' Style and forgotten about those actions because otherwise they'd be headline news.
Im sure a god is looking down thinking 'what has the world come to when a bunch of idiots try and look hard to other idiots trying to look hard', and both god and yourself would be right, as i say we must hunt these people down and punish them for what they have done!
Or maybe thats the 1 response stupider than what the Italian police felt would defuse the situation and bring peace back to the matter.
A flame alone is harmless, but throw petrol onto it and nasty sh*t happens. Sure the match and the petrol are fine seperated, but just because the match is lit does it come close to excusing or justifying the result when the 2 meet.
It doesnt take a genius to figure the police were the catalyst which caused the explosive scenes, both parts played their parts, but continuously bringing up the fact that if A & B hadnt happened then X wouldnt have happened.
Dalek0220:
Shut the f*ck up until your actually know what your talking about
"I hate Man Utd, cause they are Liverpools rivals, and cause they also, stole our nick name."
PLEASE give everyone the pleasure of being reminded what Manchester Uniteds nickname is, and then remind everyone what Liverpool FC's nickname is, were all dying to know.
If your going to support Liverpool despite living in a completely different country and CLEARLY are nothing more than a sheep following the heard, spend some time to figure out what your hearing is absolute toss.
Figure it out yourself you stupid ignorant sheep.
Take a lesson from G-Fresh on how to be a proper supporter instead of just a little idiot that cant think for itself. I have my own opinions of Liverpool FC, just as im sure G-Fresh and many Liverpool fans have of Manchester United, but have you noticed that it IS actually possible to have a discussion without bringing up childish nonsense, inaccurate childish nonsense at that.
Seeing as your such a dyed in the wool supporter, clearly you know everything there is for your wonderful Liverpool FC, or 'The Red Devils' as you like to call them so you'd know where that lovely little 'anthem' you lovable scamps hold so dear to your hearts originates from, wouldnt you? 'YNWA' , I believe they're team play in a red shirt, Lancashire based, but i cant for the life of me think which set of fans were the first to sing it, and which team nicked it shortly after (I say shortly, i do mean 2-3 months later, so hardly a close call) and claimed it as their own. Dont suppose you happen to know which teams fans sang it first, and who were the stereotypical thieving scamps?
Its so funny, what with you bringing up United supposedly stealing things from Liverpool.
Spend some time and learn about the team you support instead of just going off what you assume, think you know, or some other know-nothing fan tells you similar nonsense.
Thanks for your imput on this discussion, and for extending my opinions on people like yourself.
Chances are by now something may have clicked and you'll have realised your a silly little boy, but incase you havent, im awaiting your reply!!
G-Fresh:
Same Q to you as above seeing as that nitwit probably wont have the balls to comment on another Liverpool based matter.
Yes, i'd agree with that, if the barrier wasnt there, and was replaced with security, they may have approached each other but i find it very hard to believe they would have got to the dividing line of stewards/police.
However i dont think its the barrier really, it was the lack of anything really stopping them from doing what they did. Had a line of police been on either side of the barrier looking on for possible trouble, then there is no way either would have charged at those coppers, men with battons & solid plexiglass barrier = waste of anyones time.
The barriers for games as hate filled as Utd v Liverpool dont have all that much of a dividing line, they have about 2-man wide wall of coppers on each row seperating the 2 fans. Sometimes there will be say 10 seats either side empty, possibly with the netting stuff over the rows, but thats hardly a inpenatratable barrier.
For champions league matches are no different. Possibly less police presence, and those that are there arent armed with battons and sheilds, because the Utd fans have no interest in kicking off, so the only reason they'd step measures up would be if the away supporters were considered to be needing it, as they will on Tuesday.
@ PaulC2K you will have noticed i didn't even bother replying to Dalek0220's comments as i don't wish to be associated with people like him. He's no Liverpool fan. That post was all rather embarrassing tbh.
And yes, my understanding is that YNWA was first sung by Man Utd fans, to commemorate the Munich air crash victims. I'm not to proud to be corrected if that's not the case either.
After watching that video, 3 times to be sure!..I notice 'objects' being thrown FROM the Utd fans towards the police...surely that constitutes an 'attack'? It seems that the main body of police were trying to get in to support their colleagues who WERE surrounded by ManUre fans, but were actively prevented by others...
This does seem like a provoked retalliation from the police rather than the 'we werent doing nuffink' mentality of the Mancs.
PS I hate ManUre too, not because they stole our nickname (), but because they are ManUre!
Only 3 points behind now...got a twitchy bum yet Fergie!! We are waiting for you at the Bridge!!
I have watched you clip and it has not changed my views.
I am in no way saying this is the Man U "fans" ONLY, the Roma "fans" are just as much to blame. The stabbings of Man U fans by Roma fans before the match was probably what lit the fuse on a firework that even the Man U club had a hand in when it told its fans they might get attacked on the way to the match by Roma fans.
Right, your video. Here is a breakdown of the video until it all kicks off.
0-35 is the initial rush, the police sweep down and then everything is calm again. Nobody yet down and being clubbed on the floor.
35-50 Away from what is going on so can't tell.
51-1:01 The police have re-grouped. Stewards between them and "fans" and all is still calm. People can be seen within batton range of the police, they are not scared or being hit.
1:02-1:22 Pans to something going on then man in brown coat are pointing at police starts to move in followed by others. A small pack gets all "pretend hard" at the police. Man in brown coat moves off after he leads the pack to the police. The police move and the mob moves back.
1:22-1:47 Fans stop at distance. All calm again.
1:47-1:57 Pans up in the direction that man in brown coat from earlier moved, we see about 15 riot squad Surrounded on ALL sides with an angry mob in their face.
1:57-2:00 you can see the police move back the mob. There is a man out on his own and the lead officer moves him back WITHOUT a beating.
2:00-2:40 Pans around, open hostility visible everywhere. Officers have backs against wall and no real exit.
2:40 BOOM, The fans move in on the police like an angry mob and the sticks start to fly.
I have to say your view they are a bunch of wanabe hard men is a little naive. I take it that if the stadium had not deployed stewards and police the "fans" on both side would have shouted at each other for a bit and then sat down with each other and had a cup of tea? Come on, get real.
At points you can see so called fans PUSH other fans into the police knowing that person might even get a beating. You watch the crowd enough and you realise there is a smaller mob in that crowd that are "in their element" and are up for agro. They are the cause of this, if you want to assign blame, they are you men.
As for the people beaten while on the ground. These happned much later on and you have to ask the people getting the beating. Exactly how many times do you have to see the riot squad use their battons on others before you back off to a safe distance so you do not get hit yourself? Every single one of those "fans" had a chance, it was their choice and nobody elses.
Thats me done now unless anyone else can dig up a video that shows people on the floor being beaten BEFORE the angry mob move in for a fight with the riot squad. Your video just shows the "fans" wanted the fight but then didn't like the fight they got.
Missed it unfortunately
Had to settle for being there instead, but hey-ho, you win some you lose some.
Smith played exactly how he plays best, never giving the defenders a chance to settle with the ball, chasing it down and basically running round the pitch like a man posessed. He was fortunate to get the ball to put him on for the goal but you cant deny that was beautifully made and tucked away, 5 passes by 5 players, 1 touch each from one end to the other and it ends up in the back of the net.
Having those first 3 goals go in so quickly their heads went down and thankfully rather than backing down and holding onto what we'd got (only a 4-2 lead, nothing concreate) we carried on and continued to hold no prisoners.
Fantastic atmosphere, near perfect performance from all the players, fantastic night of football and possibly 3 from 4 english teams in the final and a damn good shout at an all English final. I dont think theres a more frightful prospect than a Utd v Liverpool final, losing that just doesnt bare thinking about.
Neither does a possible Utd v Chelsea final, which could mean playing them 3 times in an extremely confined timespan of something like 2 weeks (League, and then possibly CL and/or FA Cup) where either team could come out of those 3 games as the competition winners.
Just waiting for the highlights and the full match torrent to get a move on
so you'd know where that lovely little 'anthem' you lovable scamps hold so dear to your hearts originates from, wouldnt you? 'YNWA' , I believe they're team play in a red shirt, Lancashire based, but i cant for the life of me think which set of fans were the first to sing it, and which team nicked it shortly after (I say shortly, i do mean 2-3 months later, so hardly a close call) and claimed it as their own. Dont suppose you happen to know which teams fans sang it first, and who were the stereotypical thieving scamps?
), but because they are ManUre! 