I know this has been covered. I just want to make sure its clear.


STANDING STARTS:
I know standing starts are not for everyone, it takes a little skill to get full control of this when you first start sim racing. I had some great racing last night with a few people and just wanted to reiterate to those that are still a little new to LFS or SimRacing in general or just need a refresher:

"Races cannot be won the first lap but many can be lost!"

And of course "In order to win, you first have to finish". I am not trying to start a rant, I just wanted to remind people that at the start don't get to excited and rush to pass, this is way to common and people seem to forget that tires are still very cold. People fly to the front and hit 1-2 cars and it has a domino effect, instead hold your line "carefully and cautiously" and be considerate and aware of the other drivers. If you can just ease into the first few corners smoothly and get your tires warm you will enjoy this game so much more.

Happy Racing!


-Avid

Please feel free to add.

All good advice, but what does the 101 mean

Some American thing.....I never got it.

I keep telling people that they should drive this "game" as they would drive the real car, or real race...! They would certainly not run into you at the start.. so why not pretend that you are actually racing in real life, and it would be much better, i don't know why does everyone want to overtake you in the first turn.. be patient!!

101 = one on one

as in one to one training, as in one instructor and one pupil

imo

A newbie tip for the first turn. You may have to break earlier than your normal breaking point, when lots of cars pile into one corner it's going to take longer for the last placed car to get through than the first.

All the above is true and I try my damndest to not win on the first corner cos it aint gonna happen.

Thing is, if peeps see a 5 laps race what do you think they are going to do, yup, win on the first corner because if they're not in a good position at turn 2 they can pretty much kiss goodbye to winning. I think thats the main problem..

Me, I don't care if I win or finish 3rd-4th whatever, long as I get a clean race I'm a winner


Axel

Sometimes the guys at the back are not to blame. There are times when people at the front start to brake too early, they realize that the guy behind is going to pass so they close the line. Closing and defending the perfect line is ok but when the guy from behind has started to brake egzactly where he needs to, he cant brake harder than he is and closing him is going to make him slam you in 99% of the time. In that case, the hiter is not to blame but they usualy are accused. The key in my oppinion would be to hold your line unles you are in the proces of overtaking.

Quote from gunja :

Sometimes the guys at the back are not to blame. There are times when people at the front start to brake too early, they realize that the guy behind is going to pass so they close the line.

In a normal field where the experience and skill of the driver vary a lot, it's impossible to start driving on the limit in the first corners already -- you simply don't have the room for that.

It's a matter of live and let live.

the main problem is most of the while you're either just starting a session (takes me a race or two to warm up properly) or your've just spent the last 10 laps warming your tyres up to a nice sticky temperature, only to start on fully cold tyres again, it's something that you might know consiously but once the race get's underway things like that are temporarily forgotten until the pack sorys itself out.

i'm usually quite content to lose maybee 1-2 places in the first few corners, and often make up many more than that during even a 5 lapper, i suppose when you're a bit new to it all it's quite tempting to lunge forward when everybody else seems to be taking is slow (it';s because they want to finish!)

must stop now, i could rant on forever about buggered starts.

Quote from SabersKunk :

101 = one on one

as in one to one training, as in one instructor and one pupil

imo

Wrong. It was a good try, but it's not at all the meaning as it is used
in 'america'. I simply refers to the entry-level course of a subject, the
basics. Most courses here are assigned numeric identifiers and 101 is the
very first ID, there is no courses before it, it's n00b-ville. 102+ would be
following courses of the same level, whereas 201 represents the next level.

Sooo, "Standing Starts 101" would be the entry-level course of standing
starts, learning the basics.

Quote from Fonnybone :

Wrong. It was a good try, but it's not at all the meaning as it is used
in 'america'. I simply refers to the entry-level course of a subject, the
basics. Most courses here are assigned numeric identifiers and 101 is the
very first ID, there is no courses before it, it's n00b-ville. 102+ would be
following courses of the same level, whereas 201 represents the next level.

Sooo, "Standing Starts 101" would be the entry-level course of standing
starts, learning the basics.

Gotcha

Being in the US, I am of course a Nascar fan (please, no flames, LOL). I'm not a fan of Indy, F1, or any of those open wheelers. But 2 weeks ago during a commercial of the Brickyard race, I flipped to Speed Channel on the satelite and a GT race was about to start. I haven't caught any road racing on TV since I started racing LFS, so I thought, cool, I'll swap back and forth. The race started and guess what happened? Yup, there were cars littered around in the first turn. I thought "cool, it looks so real, the physics must be just like LFS", hehe. I think there were 3 or 4 cars scattered at turn 1 just like we have every race here. That was my first real experience of actually watching and paying attention to a road race on tv. I figured I'd watch how they run and learn something that I could use playing LFS. Little did I know, at the start it would be just like watching the start of an LFS race.

And Fonnybone, you beat me too it on the 101.

And for the other Nascar and road race fans around, how about Boris Said at Watkins Glen. Finally a good finish. Said is my favorite road course driver and I've been rooting for him at the Nascar road races for quite a few years now. I don't know why he's my favorite. It must have been the hair a few years ago.

I am inclined to agree with a lot of these comments. At Blackwood, I pull to the side when the pack moves, so I'm at the very back. No one to hit me from behind, then. And I can normally get a good enough line out of the turns to move up a few places on the straight.

And to clarify, if somone hits you from behind, it is the hitters fault. He should've anticipated the possibility of early braking, and kept distance. (All hail the CRC!) :P

Quote from Rippance :

In a normal field where the experience and skill of the driver vary a lot, it's impossible to start driving on the limit in the first corners already -- you simply don't have the room for that.

Impossible? Are you saying that there shouldnt be overtaking in the first corner? One of the best ways to climb the grid is to take every "possible" chance you get to overtake at the start (that would include first corners) but it takes skills. Naturaly, all people have their own ways so i'm not saying yours is wrong. I just say that sometimes the guy that hits you is not always to blame (in case you did the described action to prevent his).

Quote from BlackSpider :

And to clarify, if somone hits you from behind, it is the hitters fault. He should've anticipated the possibility of early braking, and kept distance. (All hail the CRC!) :P

That would be the rule on the public roads and normal traffic driving but i dont agree that it's the case in racing. You have to know that the driver behind cannot always anticipate some wreckles stunt that you may pull to prevent him to overtake.

Quote from gunja :

That would be the rule on the public roads and normal traffic driving but i dont agree that it's the case in racing. You have to know that the driver behind cannot always anticipate some wreckles stunt that you may pull to prevent him to overtake.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but many here will disagree. We feel that obeying a few simple rules (see the CRC Rules for reference) and generally driving safe and reasonably carefully makes for more fun on the track.

Keeping your eye out for early braking falls under "reasonably carefully", imho. In formula 1 drivers sometimes give each other "brake tests" and it is up to the rear driver to make sure this doesn't result in a crash (as long as the lead one doesn't put his foot on the brake in the middle of a straight, of course... )

And I think we can all agree nobody likes a t1 crash...

Quote from gunja :

That would be the rule on the public roads and normal traffic driving but i dont agree that it's the case in racing. You have to know that the driver behind cannot always anticipate some wreckles stunt that you may pull to prevent him to overtake.

I have to disagree with your here. If I am being causous on the start to avoid running the guy in front of me over or to make sure I have a clean line through a corner and you hit me because you failed to leave yourself room for errors, how is that my fault? I do agree that if you are trying to ever take my before the turn in point and I do not have room or time to block you then trying to do so is not a good idea.

Quote from Gimpster :

If I am being causous on the start to avoid running the guy in front of me over or to make sure I have a clean line through a corner and you hit me because you failed to leave yourself room for errors, how is that my fault?

I dont think some of you understood my point. In the case you described, it certenly wouldnt be your fault. But to say that if somone hits you from behind, it is the hitters fault, this is where i wouldnt agree. It very much depends of what a guy in front did as well. The hitter is to blame in roughly 9 out of 10 times but not in 100% of the cases. When i say that sometimes the guy from behind is not to blame, the key word would be "sometimes".

Quote from gunja :

That would be the rule on the public roads and normal traffic driving but i dont agree that it's the case in racing. You have to know that the driver behind cannot always anticipate some wreckles stunt that you may pull to prevent him to overtake.

Most of the time you should stay far enough behind to avoid it, but there are exceptions i think. For example today on historic i was a fair distance behind someone and we went into a turn that you can take at about 130mph, and he slammed on his brakes slowing down to probably 30-40mph, i dont think anyone would antipate something like this, and i doubt anyone would drive like that in a real race.

I think one of the points here is that it is very unlikely that you can drive and brake on the limit going into turn one unless you are in front. Especially for large grids, there is no way to know what your speed will be and where the correct brake point will be. Basically, it is infinitely variable. That is why you leave yourself a bit of extra room. Plus, the accordian affect will happen and the field will back up, it is unavoidable. This will further modify the braking point.

Nothing is more annoying than having avoided ramming the guy in front of you who seemed to brake early, but really wasn't because he had to avoid the guy in front of him. Then, starting to make your turn into the apex, there is some bonzia driver diving in thinking to take advantage of the "opening". I have to move to the outside of the corner to insure I don't get wrecked because bonzia dude is carrying too much speed. The bonzia dude is all proud of himself for making a clean pass on turn one, when in actuallity his "skillful" driving is only in his head. The truth is, I was the one who avoided the accident that was going to be caused by bonzia dude by giving the room to allow him to get the car back under control. And all of this after I had to drive cautiously to avoid the inevitable accordian affect going into turn one. I have had this happen time and again. I usually gain the positions back a few laps later, but it is still annoying.

I have made clean passes on turn one plenty of times, but I did not have to drive on the edge to do it, and I did not have to force my way through. I keep the car under control, going slower than I normally would for that corner, and wouldn't you know it, somebody will overshoot the apex because they tried to push too hard, and I am in.

True, it is not always your fault when you hit somebody in front of you. That does not change the fact that it is the following driver's responsibility to avoid hitting the car in front. You seem to be confusing fault with responsibility, they are two different things. Plus, the driver in front has the right to the corner. You can't dive in and block the apex if there is no reasonable chance of the driver in front seeing the move or being able to modify his line enough to avoid you. The car in front should not have to try and avoid you when you are making a passing manuever unless you are clearly along side the other car.

With the best will in the world, these instances are going to happen at sometime.

A lot can depend upon the type of T1. Blackwood is a classic where you can reach high speeds before a tight hair pin. You only have to watch F1 at monza (eg) to see the chaos there, and these guys do it for a living! Yes there are a massive number of clean racers out there, but this is racing, people get pumped up and the adrenalin starts to run and these accidents/incidents will always happen.

On the one hand I've had starts where there has been server lag, next thing you know is a car pops up in front of you and its too late, what can you do?
On the other there are those late brakers going for it, sometimes the gamble works on others, they can wipe you and several out, yes its frustrating but it isn't the end of the world. (is it?)

My 2p

I watched some British F3 championship stuff recently that was on channel 4 dead early on a sunday. My god, it was like a demo server. Absolute bedlam.

Not sure what my point is really, but I just thought I'd share that.

Quote from Hallen :

I think one of the points here is that it is very unlikely that you can drive and brake on the limit going into turn one unless you are in front. Especially for large grids, there is no way to know what your speed will be and where the correct brake point will be. Basically, it is infinitely variable. That is why you leave yourself a bit of extra room. Plus, the accordian affect will happen and the field will back up, it is unavoidable. This will further modify the braking point.

Totaly agree.

Quote :

Nothing is more annoying than having avoided ramming the guy in front of you who seemed to brake early, but really wasn't because he had to avoid the guy in front of him. Then, starting to make your turn into the apex, there is some bonzia driver diving in thinking to take advantage of the "opening". I have to move to the outside of the corner to insure I don't get wrecked because bonzia dude is carrying too much speed. The bonzia dude is all proud of himself for making a clean pass on turn one, when in actuallity his "skillful" driving is only in his head. The truth is, I was the one who avoided the accident that was going to be caused by bonzia dude by giving the room to allow him to get the car back under control. And all of this after I had to drive cautiously to avoid the inevitable accordian affect going into turn one. I have had this happen time and again. I usually gain the positions back a few laps later, but it is still annoying.

Ahh, but should the guy who is one car width inside of you, but still one car length behind you have to slow as you do because you may take your car further inside? Especialy if he knows he can get beside you before you make your move? I will routinely take advantage of someone slowing for an apperent wreck in front of them. I'll get further inside of them if the room is there and I would expect them to be aware enough to know I have made that move. If they leave the room and aren't making a move to block it, I'll take advantage...no matter the circumstances. Now, if I'm carrying too much speed to hold that inside line and happen to push out into them, then that's my bad. But I rarely do that sort of thing .

Quote :

True, it is not always your fault when you hit somebody in front of you. That does not change the fact that it is the following driver's responsibility to avoid hitting the car in front. You seem to be confusing fault with responsibility, they are two different things. Plus, the driver in front has the right to the corner. You can't dive in and block the apex if there is no reasonable chance of the driver in front seeing the move or being able to modify his line enough to avoid you. The car in front should not have to try and avoid you when you are making a passing manuever unless you are clearly along side the other car.

I'd like to back up a previous poster's thoughts regarding the fact that it's not always the fault of the guy who rear ends. If I'm comming down the back straight in a GTR race on BL1 and I'm catching a draft on the guy in front of me with the intentions of pulling to the right as soon as we get close to the brake point, and the dude slams on the brakes at 250ft (120 is normal brake point) then no, I'm not going to feel too bad about hitting the guy. I shouldn't have to do a "/w laps" command on every Joe Schmoe out there to find out who the newbie is that might be inclined to start braking at twice the normal brake point. It's simply not my responsibility. And in the case of the draft, I shouldn't be expected to be at fault for being too close to the guy unless I'm still breathing down his neck with 50 feet to go before the brake point. The fact that he's a newbie and might brake that early isn't my fault and as I've said before, I shouldn't be expected to know that. He should be expected to have watched a few races and done enough practice laps to not cause such problems.

I've also had a very experienced driver (who will remain nameless, but I have a replay to back me up, PM me if you want to see it) who was making a pass on me in the exact same situation as described above. Only, he managed to get by with 100 feet to go before the brake zone. What he did next is incomrehensable. He swerved back in front of me, almost hitting me in the process, and imediately threw the anchor out. This all happened in less than a second and I was not prepared for it. I ended up locking my brakes and slightly tapping his back, which made me go out of control, but did nothing to him. We had words afterwards, and he remains an ass for thinking that was an acceptable manuever. This was in S1 BTW, TBO cars on BL1.


So, it's not black and white.

Quote from operator0 :

So, it's not black and white.

Absolutely.

The overtaking move that you were talking about, sure that is ligitimate. It may make me mad, but that's racing. You do it cleanly and under control and clearly take the position with time to spare, then go for it. I will see you and I will try to pinch you, but I won't ram you (unless I goof).
I was mostly referring to people who try and force their way past when they see just a hint of daylight. They ignore what is happening with the other cars in front and they generally are carrying too much speed.

Those incedents that you talk about are going to happen, unfortunately. It is frustrating. Like I said before though, don't confuse fault with responsibility. The other driver has a responsibility too. Drive consistently, know the track, don't cut people off, don't make stupid moves. There are just a lot of people out there right now who don't take the time to learn the car or the track off line and they are going to be very unpredictable. Race em' and hope for the best.