Funny that you say you prefer the USSR when you´re too young to have even seen the country yourself.
Funny that you say you prefer the USSR when you´re too young to have even seen the country yourself.
In reality, the concept of nation is quite different. You're confusing the definitions of Nation and State, the latter one having an administrative meaning which is lacking in the former.
And one should never confuse pride in one's origins with hatred; totalitarianism sometimes begins there, and sometimes receives unconscious totalitarian answers. Want proof? Read here.
One man one goal one mission
One heart one soal just one solution
One flash of light yeah one God one vision
One flesh one bone
One true religion
One voice one hope
One real decision
Wowowowo gimme one vision
No wrong no right
Im gonna tell you theres no black and no white
No blood no stain
All we need is one world wide vision
Apparently Queen's lyrics point to a perfect world in their vision, but it screams totalitarianism. Total dullness. No wonder Laibach covered it in one of their funniest and most intelligent videos.
Learning to appreciate differences is one of the best things I can do in my life. At the same time I consider myself lucky, I'm quite proud of my origins. But you seem to be more than me, judging from your avatar.
I take pride in who I am (of which my origin is only a part). If my self-respect were in any way dependent on my origins, then I would feel there was something wrong. My sense of self-worth is bolstered immensely more by what I have done in life, rather than the accident of my birth.
Conversely, I would fiercely oppose anyone who attempted to subvert my sense of worth, purely on the basis of my origins. For this reason, I can only see nationalism as a defensive emotion, having very little to do with anything positive in life.
@Albieg, I think I didn't make myself understood in my post. I can see a world under one nation, one flag, one vision ... provided it's a Welsh nation, a Welsh flag, and a Carfiff Redevelopment Vision...
The point I was making is that my national identity doesn't really distinguish me from the Scotts, the French, or the Outer Mongolians. What makes me different is me, not a crude painting of a Dragon on a two tone background. Earth is a planet full of diversity and difference, and rather than celebrate this we chose to group ourselves into national borders and bicker at other countries over their differences, when the truth is, within those nations, we're all different.
I watched all of the One Vision tribute that you posted, I didn't see what was intelligent about it tbh - maybe it's because i'm rushed and at work, or because i'm not in the right mindset to see it's 'brilliance', all I saw was a low budget...
And the point of One Vision, even though it was a joke and an afterthought, has to be fried chicken
.
The point I was making is that my national identity doesn't really distinguish me from the Scotts, the French, or the Outer Mongolians. What makes me different is me, not a crude painting of a Dragon on a two tone background. Earth is a planet full of diversity and difference, and rather than celebrate this we chose to group ourselves into national borders and bicker at other countries over their differences, when the truth is, within those nations, we're all different.
I watched all of the One Vision tribute that you posted, I didn't see what was intelligent about it tbh - maybe it's because i'm rushed and at work, or because i'm not in the right mindset to see it's 'brilliance', all I saw was a low budget...
And the point of One Vision, even though it was a joke and an afterthought, has to be fried chicken
.I can't see anything contrasting to what I've said in what you say, nihil. I just happen to recognise that the familiar and cultural climate surrounding me, including everything related to the places I've lived in, has had a huge impact on my formation. I had lots of possibilities, and that's part of my evolution. I see the positive side, you see the negative one. I thought I had been clear about it in my previous post, but maybe you wrongly mistake me as a blind nationalist while, in reality, just like Pasolini, I believe in the preservation (but not forcible) of cultural values without transforming them into matters of dispute.
Edit: if you focus on the budget you won't see the brilliance, Becky. It's not a tribute, and it's not a mockery. It's political satire.
Edit: if you focus on the budget you won't see the brilliance, Becky. It's not a tribute, and it's not a mockery. It's political satire.
Leading article: Don't let Russia bully the Baltics
Published: 30 April 2007
One dead, hundreds arrested and the danger of more trouble to come. It's not what we have come to expect of Estonia, better known to Britons as a playground and a place to buy property. Some will shake their heads, the phrase "far-off country of which we know little" coming to mind. We should resist that temptation. Like it or not, the expansion of the European Union to the Baltic states means Estonia's crisis with Russia over the removal of a Soviet war memorial from the centre of Tallin is our concern, too. You wouldn't know that, however, from the evasive murmurs coming out of Brussels and Germany, the current holder of the EU presidency.
We have had the strange spectacle of the EU nodding with apparent respect as Vladimir Putin's ministers lecture Estonia on civil rights. This is hypocrisy on a grand scale, given Russia's treatment of its unhappy Chechens and its rough handling of recent anti-government protests in Moscow and St Petersburg.
One might have expected officials from Brussels and Berlin to point out the discrepancy between the standards Russia that applies to its own minorities and those it demands of others. Instead, we have had Angela Merkel talking soothingly to Mr Putin on the telephone and urging restraint on Estonia.
This is the proverbial road to hell paved with good intentions. Indulging Russia's imperial attitudes towards the Baltic states, which it invaded in 1940 and ruled harshly for the next half-century, is not going to get us anywhere. We merely are feeding Moscow's appetite to re-establish influence over those former Soviet republics that it revealingly refers to as the "near abroad".
By striking an even posture between tiny Estonia and its former masters in Russia over the question of what Estonia does with its own war memorials, Europe is giving Russia a green light to interfere further. It is an assumed right that it will not hesitate to exercise.
Russia's new-found confidence when it comes to meddling in European affairs is not confined to the Baltics. The West's peace plan for Kosovo, which offers that troubled region its best-ever hope of a settlement, is about to founder on the rock of Russia's opposition. Possibly, there is not much than anyone can do about that; the plan has to go to the UN Security Council, of which Russia is a member. But Europe's feeble response to this threat has only encouraged Russia to dig in its heels.
From the Baltics to the Balkans, there seems to be a pattern; of a newly assertive and oil-rich Russia pushing hard at a door that Europe has carelessly left ajar. We shall see whether this does either region much good. So far, the auguries are not promising.
Published: 30 April 2007
One dead, hundreds arrested and the danger of more trouble to come. It's not what we have come to expect of Estonia, better known to Britons as a playground and a place to buy property. Some will shake their heads, the phrase "far-off country of which we know little" coming to mind. We should resist that temptation. Like it or not, the expansion of the European Union to the Baltic states means Estonia's crisis with Russia over the removal of a Soviet war memorial from the centre of Tallin is our concern, too. You wouldn't know that, however, from the evasive murmurs coming out of Brussels and Germany, the current holder of the EU presidency.
We have had the strange spectacle of the EU nodding with apparent respect as Vladimir Putin's ministers lecture Estonia on civil rights. This is hypocrisy on a grand scale, given Russia's treatment of its unhappy Chechens and its rough handling of recent anti-government protests in Moscow and St Petersburg.
One might have expected officials from Brussels and Berlin to point out the discrepancy between the standards Russia that applies to its own minorities and those it demands of others. Instead, we have had Angela Merkel talking soothingly to Mr Putin on the telephone and urging restraint on Estonia.
This is the proverbial road to hell paved with good intentions. Indulging Russia's imperial attitudes towards the Baltic states, which it invaded in 1940 and ruled harshly for the next half-century, is not going to get us anywhere. We merely are feeding Moscow's appetite to re-establish influence over those former Soviet republics that it revealingly refers to as the "near abroad".
By striking an even posture between tiny Estonia and its former masters in Russia over the question of what Estonia does with its own war memorials, Europe is giving Russia a green light to interfere further. It is an assumed right that it will not hesitate to exercise.
Russia's new-found confidence when it comes to meddling in European affairs is not confined to the Baltics. The West's peace plan for Kosovo, which offers that troubled region its best-ever hope of a settlement, is about to founder on the rock of Russia's opposition. Possibly, there is not much than anyone can do about that; the plan has to go to the UN Security Council, of which Russia is a member. But Europe's feeble response to this threat has only encouraged Russia to dig in its heels.
From the Baltics to the Balkans, there seems to be a pattern; of a newly assertive and oil-rich Russia pushing hard at a door that Europe has carelessly left ajar. We shall see whether this does either region much good. So far, the auguries are not promising.
Estonia has all the rights to self determination. Being an EU country, EU fellow countries should express anger at what's happening, not urging restraint. This is an extremely bad atmosphere.
Here you see an example , EU and NATO are not helping
EU and NATO are scared that there can start III world war
EU and NATO are scared that there can start III world war
I'd say Estonian politicians have done a good job for not crying out for help. I'm sure they want and partly need to prove they can take care of their own business. Asking NATO to help moving a statue would be even more ridiculous what the situation is already, it's like killing a fly with a nuclear strike. What worries me is that people in Europe might not actually understand what's going on and take the Russian propaganda as truth, it would be a great loss for Estonia. Got to say that the knee jerking attitude of European politicians toward Russia doesn't help. If Europe starts to whine, they just cut off the gas and power. Fortunately it's not winter.
No, I wouldn't have you down as a nationalist... I cannot deny my roots either. But I don't see any need (and I don't have any desire) to resolve such feelings into 'nationalism'.Interesting you mention Pasolini. I think his interest in the cafoni, and I guess really his association with neorealism, is somewhat different to a nationalist passion. His passion is for those elements of a culture that he sees as stoically pre-bourgeois. Its a quite explicitly political vision.
No really we are not scared of WW3. The problem is nobody actually cares. Now please dont take this the wrong way, but an earlier post hit the nail on the head... a far off land. Right now we're so heavily committed to further screwing up the middle east at the bequest of America the people, and the military preparedness, of the nation are just not ready to deal with another trouble spot - even if only wearing blue hats.
EU and NATO will do nothing but dodge this issue, they'll avoid any conflict with Russia on the grounds that playing with fire gets you burned.
That's the bottom line, tbh it's not one I completely agree with - but to be frank the pointless bickerings of bother your countries over a sodding statue really is rediculous.
If you two can fall out over a bronze statue then what is the point of EU and NATO interfering? You'll only start arguing over stackable soya bean crates next.
The fact that this is in any way an international incident is because the pair of you [ie: your countries] are acting like idiots.
It's a piece of bloody bronze.
This is not an international incident! It´s Estonia´s internal affair and we can deal with it on our own. All the EU politicians that have spoke on the subject have said the excact same thing. This would have never got so big of a deal if there wouldn´t be for the Russian goverment sticking their nose in another country´s internal affairs. And you´re right, this isn´t about the statue. Russia would find another excuse to show their hostility.
EDIT: The statue is at it´s new place, on a military cemetary where it belongs. It hasn´t been destroyed, it´s in a beautiful and peaceful place where people who really want to honour their dead can do so. It´s going to be formally opened on 8th of May but you can go see it right now if you want. The wall behind it will be restored later. Personally I think i´t looks better without the wall but I´ll probably be labelled as a faschist for saying even that.
EDIT: The statue is at it´s new place, on a military cemetary where it belongs. It hasn´t been destroyed, it´s in a beautiful and peaceful place where people who really want to honour their dead can do so. It´s going to be formally opened on 8th of May but you can go see it right now if you want. The wall behind it will be restored later. Personally I think i´t looks better without the wall but I´ll probably be labelled as a faschist for saying even that.
Pasolini's ideas about dialects and cultures to preserve were more cultural than simply political. Pasolini had much a broader vision than simply contrapposing bourgeoises to pre-bourgeoises, along with a deep understanding of the Italian society which is - historically - multinational until recent times. I find much more interesting the fact that you refer to Pasolini interested in 'cafoni', all the references to 'cafoni' I can find - related to Pasolini - are in English language. This is the first reference I can find tying that word critically to Pasolini, and I read some of his books and watched some of his movies, along with some critical stuff... Interestingly enough the word (which has a precise meaning) is used completely out of context when related to Ragazzi di Vita in an English article I saw on the 'net.
Even more interesting is this concept:
This early interest in native nationalism and agrarian culture is also a central element in Pasolini's politics.
Mmmm. I perfectly understand the concept and the context, so this sentence is, to my eyes, correct.
For instance I am an Italian who lives in the Nation of Friuli, which is part of the administrative region called Friuli-Venezia Giulia. Few people would argue that Friuli is a Nation, but then again Friulian nationalists are quite rare and mostly focused in preserving the Friulian culture rather than fighting futile political battles.
Besides that, I would argue once again that the concept of Nation is very different from what we generally think, and this confusion is partly due to political manipulation that generates a wrong idea of a concept.
Even more interesting is this concept:
This early interest in native nationalism and agrarian culture is also a central element in Pasolini's politics.
Mmmm. I perfectly understand the concept and the context, so this sentence is, to my eyes, correct.
For instance I am an Italian who lives in the Nation of Friuli, which is part of the administrative region called Friuli-Venezia Giulia. Few people would argue that Friuli is a Nation, but then again Friulian nationalists are quite rare and mostly focused in preserving the Friulian culture rather than fighting futile political battles.
Besides that, I would argue once again that the concept of Nation is very different from what we generally think, and this confusion is partly due to political manipulation that generates a wrong idea of a concept.
Would be interested to hear more about what kind of political manipulation. I can't see any value in breaking an idea of 'nation' away from ANY of its political, cultural, and economic connotations. Its not as if a nation (however you define it) can be said NOT to have a political or economic interest.
I can't remember who I got the word cafoni from, but I remember liking it. My understanding is that it is something of a perjorative, meaning unmannered or suchlike. It just seemed appropriate in this case, particularly since it seems to be one of those words that became an insult, a way of one people differentiating itself from another. A bit like 'chav'...
Do I have to?
how can I respec a country where people born at the same time, in the same place get treated differently because of the nationality?
Again, you're mistaking a philosophical concept with an administrative one. A nation must not necessarily have political or economic meanings, and this is by definition. Look at the Ambiguity in usage section in Wikipedia at the voice Nation.
As for the usage of the word 'cafoni', unfortunately using in such a context is far from being correct as it's closer to the derived derogatory term than to its original meaning, lacking all the philological depth. As such, Pasolini wouldn't have used it, or would have used it referring to southern Italian peasants, not to Roman suburban people. Words have a meaning, or better, they have denotations and connotations. The word 'cafoni' is used in its proper meaning by Ignazio Silone, and in Italian literature and critique it's used only when referring to Silone's works, with no derogatory meaning. No one would dare calling the Ragazzi di Vita 'cafoni': it's imprecise, derogatory and extremely far from the mentality of Pasolini.
Anything you may call "discrimination of russians" is direct consequence of this kind of attitude. Latvians are at home in this country. You are not. You can't just demand same rights as they have. Do you even speak latvian?
Alright Estonian and Russian supporters. I suggest solving our dissensions on the track. Russian supporters may choose cars, Estonian supporters choose track. 10 on 10. Loosers will have to live ashamed the rest of their lives
Just kiddin`
Loosers will have to live ashamed the rest of their livesJust kiddin`
Russians(or any other nation for that matter) with Estonian citizenship have excactly the same rights as ethnic Estonians. If they can´t be bothered to learn the language and can´t get a job because of that then whose fault is that?
I'm not mistaking anything... I am questioning your idealistic and somewhat sentimental notion of a 'nation' (I repeat, of any kind... ) that is devoid of an economy, that is devoid of politics. It just seems puritanical and abstract to me... Far too ascetic... Even the loosest grouping of cultural interests (the Rainbow Nation, for instance) operates with its own cultural currency, is constituted by symbolic exchanges.
Pasolini certainly had a broad vision and departed from his Gramscian comrades in many ways, but I doubt he ever would have wanted the cultural content of both his films and his literature to be divorced from the politics that are inherent to daily life.
Its precisely the derogatory meaning that makes it seem appropriate. OK, Pasolini may never have used it, and I apologise for missing out on any subtleties. My use of it was simply to indicate that Pasolini was interested in that part of a putative nation that generally takes abuse, when it isn't more simply just forgotten.
(was just looking up the reason Ragazzi di Vita saw Pasolini in so much trouble with the law... Realise that 'borgate' would have been more correct?)
Yes, I do, fluently.
but on topic - WHY CAN'T I DEMAND SAME RIGHTS?
now tell me one thing
Youre born in Estonia and have parents who lived there all their life and you live there still
and somebody is born right next to you, on the same day, by other people, who lived next door to your parents and their child lives there still
WHY cant HE have same rights as you do?
because his parents arent Estonians, and his grandfather fought in a war he didnt want to participate in?
I'm sure this whole mess is on a much deeper level than I could ever possibly understand given the cultural barriers between me and everybody personally involved in this situation. But it seems to me that Russia needs to butt out of the whole monument thing. It kinda looks like Estonians view the Russians as "liberators" much in the same way that Finland viewed them as "liberators."
Every citizen has the same rights. You don´t have to demand for something you already have.
However if you´re not a citizen then you can apply for it when you´ve lived permanently in the country for I think it was 5 years by taking a language exam and an exam about the culture.
After gaining independance in 1991 the citizenship was automatically given to the descendants of Estonian citizens during the first republic(1918-1940). Everybody has the chance to get it though. There are plenty of people here who don´t speak a word of Estonian, are clearly more loyal to Russia and still demand that citizenship should just be given to them.
However if you´re not a citizen then you can apply for it when you´ve lived permanently in the country for I think it was 5 years by taking a language exam and an exam about the culture.
After gaining independance in 1991 the citizenship was automatically given to the descendants of Estonian citizens during the first republic(1918-1940). Everybody has the chance to get it though. There are plenty of people here who don´t speak a word of Estonian, are clearly more loyal to Russia and still demand that citizenship should just be given to them.
My notion of nation is neither sentimentalistic nor idealistic, studying Friulian history would help. Anyone there's no use to talk about this again, it's far from being useful, and far from being philologically correct. Hence, I stay out, since you like attributing me characteristics I can't recognise while changing (to my eyes) the original denotational notion of Nation, resorting only to connotation. This is far from being a correct use of the term. I agree with most of Pasolini's conclusions but I don't have his sense of opportunistic unity when it comes to times where political action is needed. This is a bad habit of the Italian left, and Pasolini, while critic, never realised completely its fallacies. Nevertheless some critics say that Pasolini owes many of his political and literary beliefs to the Gramscian concept of national-popular, the biggest Gramscian heritage in literature. Now I call it quits.
Borgata is just a quarter. Borgatari is the correct definition, or Gente di Borgata.
Borgata is just a quarter. Borgatari is the correct definition, or Gente di Borgata.
AKA "Passive Invasion"?
Sorry you guys are going through this.
I wish it were not the case that being part of the EU and NATO counts for nothing. If you guys thought that becoming part of NATO would afford you some protection against the bully next door, you're probably pretty angry right now. I came to realise, while watching the events in Beirut recently, that these international entities will stand back and watch innocent children die rather than assert and enforce what is right. I've never before felt so helpless as I have this last year or so, or so embarassed to be known as a European or Brit.
Bronze statue fight escalating in Estonia
(78 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG