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HANS Device opinions
(25 posts, started )
HANS Device opinions
Am considering getting one of these at some point during the year, and was wondering if anyone here has an direct experience of such a thing, and what the general opinion amongst users is... They aren't cheap, but that's not the issue. Are they bearably comfy, or a realy pain in the neck, etc.

Your opinion matters, but don't bother posting if the closest you've come to them is watching F1 drivers use them on the telly or read about Ralf Schumacher moaning about them when they were first introduced in F1. I need not the opinions of those with no experience or brain.
#2 - Jakg
#3 - JJ72
Quote from tristancliffe :Am considering getting one of these at some point during the year, and was wondering if anyone here has an direct experience of such a thing, and what the general opinion amongst users is... They aren't cheap, but that's not the issue. Are they bearably comfy, or a realy pain in the neck, etc.

Your opinion matters, but don't bother posting if the closest you've come to them is watching F1 drivers use them on the telly or read about Ralf Schumacher moaning about them when they were first introduced in F1. I need not the opinions of those with no experience or brain.

it's not that bad really, I've experience with one, just make sure to find the right curving angle. see link -> http://www.cscracing.com/hansorder.htm

I find out that although they suggest M30 for single seaters, M20 is actually more comfortable because it does not dig into your shoulder, and if you take account of the thickness of the overall and stuff, even a person on the slightly slim side shouldn't have problem with M20, it should not feel loose, there might be giveaway in terms of safety but as far as I know there's no major difference.

ALSO remember to buy one with removable padding that you can wash.
btw, do you already have the HANs mount mounted on your helmet yet? do you plan on getting a new helmet?
#4 - ajp71
Few drivers (none in F4, one or two Morgan racers) use HANS devices. Haven't really heard much in terms of complaints about them, consensus seems that conventional neck braces and, if you can afford them, carbon fibre helmets are far more comfortable and neck braces offer some support in a side impact, which TBH is the way you will get hurt in a small single seater like you're going to race, danger is still very low though compared to anything road based without an extensive cage.

Generally frontal impacts aren't a major issue, neither are T-bones in terms of injuries, if you have a choice between a carbon fibre or fibre glass nose cone then go for a carbon fibre one, they make an incredible difference, worth the difference when they save damage to the pedal box (including all the fluid pots), front of the tub, front suspension and broken legs. One of the cars had a smash at Silverstone, another car span and he had no where to go or time to lift, resulting in only a smashed nose cone, otherwise completely drivable and stiff neck. The other guy only got a destroyed radiator and bodywork. Without the radiator and nose cone it would have been pretty nasty and a HANS device would have been useless in preventing the actual injuries.

Basically my advice if you're worried about safety is a strong nose cone and something substantial in your sidepods (ie. radiators or impact foam) are far more important than a HANS device. They're pretty safe things and the biggest real risk of serious injury is getting hit on the head which you can't do anything about anyway, given the lack of inertia and relatively low speeds on the fast bits they very rarely actually end up stuffed in the wall like sports cars do.
Quote from ajp71 :Few drivers (none in F4, one or two Morgan racers) use HANS devices. Haven't really heard much in terms of complaints about them, consensus seems that conventional neck braces and, if you can afford them, carbon fibre helmets are far more comfortable and neck braces offer some support in a side impact, which TBH is the way you will get hurt in a small single seater like you're going to race, danger is still very low though compared to anything road based without an extensive cage.

Generally frontal impacts aren't a major issue, neither are T-bones in terms of injuries, if you have a choice between a carbon fibre or fibre glass nose cone then go for a carbon fibre one, they make an incredible difference, worth the difference when they save damage to the pedal box (including all the fluid pots), front of the tub, front suspension and broken legs. One of the cars had a smash at Silverstone, another car span and he had no where to go or time to lift, resulting in only a smashed nose cone, otherwise completely drivable and stiff neck. The other guy only got a destroyed radiator and bodywork. Without the radiator and nose cone it would have been pretty nasty and a HANS device would have been useless in preventing the actual injuries.

Basically my advice if you're worried about safety is a strong nose cone and something substantial in your sidepods (ie. radiators or impact foam) are far more important than a HANS device. They're pretty safe things and the biggest real risk of serious injury is getting hit on the head which you can't do anything about anyway, given the lack of inertia and relatively low speeds on the fast bits they very rarely actually end up stuffed in the wall like sports cars do.

Yeah, they're quite rare in non-professional racing, which is why I have to ask questions - the amount of available experience is low.

Do you mean, by neck brace, the foam 'rings' that sit between shoulder and helmet? Not sure if I like them, and I've heard nasty things about them in accidents. But then I've heard nasty things about helmets, seatbelts, rib protectors and all the other 'safety' devices in some accidents. Pfff

The trouble is that if every fitted carbon noses, or filled their GRP ones with foam is that they become so strong you make the accident worse for the other person - I don't really want to race with someone who has a stronger than normal nose cone that might, potentially, be more likely to penentrate my cockpit in an accident...

I see what you are saying about side impacts - the low cockpit sides certainly pose a risk a la Karl Wendlinger or Roland Ratzenberger, and HANS can't help that. But I don't think HANS could hinder me in such a situation. In an ideal world I'd have high cockpit sides made in CF with replaceable foam for the cockpit of my car, but money isn't that unlimited unfortunately...

I'm in two minds about HANS at the moment, but my Dad has offered to pay if it increases safety (even if not in all circumstances). I have a Bell RS3 on order, and can change that to include pre-fitted HANS posts easily. Maybe we'd be better off, ultimately, by spending that @£600 on a higher cockpit sides modification...
A word of advice tristan:

If you are REALLY serious about getting the HANS device to improve safety, ask for advice from specialist engineers e.g. biomedical engineers that actually understand and work on RL conditions with real professional race drivers. The problem with asking fellow racers only is that there's more hearsay, errornous claims and just pure ignorance induced nonsense. If you believed the late Dale Earnhart, the HANS device is a "noose". Look where he is now. He died because the lack of the HANS device to restrain head movement relative to the neck. His head was effectively pulled out of his neck. The technical term is "basilar skull fracture", a remarkably common phenomena in serious car crashes (in cars with poor or no restraints e.g. airbag to stop excess head movement).

Why were they created in the 1st place? Well, if NASCAR drivers weren't dying from remarkably prevalent basilar skull fractures, no one might have noticed.

To seriously help yourself on this question (to or not to use it), you must seriously consider how they work and what inspired their creation and use in professional racing. So, what causes neck injuries?

Of course, the HANS is useless if say a car flies right over your cockpit and decapitates you, but that's not how most casualties are generated. The real cause of injury is the fact that your seat belts do a great job of stopping your body, but it does nothing to stop head movement. It is the relative head movement between your body and head that causes real injuries. The HANS is effectively a "seat belt" for your head. It is effective as long as it prevents excessive head movement.

And yes, what a lot already say here is true, all the restraints in the universe are useless if your car isn't up to the task of absorbing kinetic energy to prevent to much load transfer to the driver. And higher cockpit side (provided they are strong and tall enough) could help reduce your chances of decapitation.

FYI, I happen to be a biomedical engineer, so I know what I'm talking about when it comes to biomechanics. And no, there's been no real evidence of HANS actually causing injuries and crashes, so don't believe every urban legend you hear. When pigs are born naturally with wings and fly around on their own power, THEN I'll believe seat belts cost lives.

Racing is a dangerous sport, but that leaves no excuse to take safety lightly. Just the opposite. Take it from a guy who used to race around on gravel/mud/soil tracks well defined by rows of trees. And happy AND safe racing, tristan.
I've just spend the best part of an hour chatting to MSAR Safety (http://www.msar-safety.com), and he's been out there and done the research that was needed for the non-professional in different cars... He thinks, based on what he's seen, than a HANS device won't make an accident worse, but can help in a lot of cases - even side impacts, because the tethers work laterally too, as long as the seatbelts stay on the HANS. Even in rearward crashes, the device won't make the accident worse, as the device sits between your helmet and shoulders and doesn't really protrude backwards much...

I think I'm convinced. The only thing to do now is re-measure my harness mounting points to see how compatible HANS is with my belts in my car with me in it. If it is within limits (and the feeling is that it will be) then I'll be getting one. Whether it's 20° or 30° depends on how I sit in the car, and I can't say I've paid attention to this parameter yet as HANS wasn't on the cards. I'm going home at lunch to strap myself in and see what's what.

The other point worth considering is that HANS was first introduced in America - one of, if not THE most litigous country on this planet - and if it works without hundreds of lawsuits there then there must be something to be said for it.

But how common are BSFs in club racing REALLY? I'd have thought crushed ankles and side impact damage would be much more likely. Knowing that HANS still provides some protection in side impacts (as my car has low cockpit sides) has definately swayed me, but my main concern was spending a LOT of money on something that might save me in a particular accident but also might make others worse. It appears that this isn't the case, and so there are only positives to it's use as long as you take care to buy the right one and use it in the correct way.

Thanks for your comments guys - it is appreciated!
#8 - ajp71
@Jamexing - I have no question a HANS device will reduce neck injuries in a severe frontal and maybe side/rearward impact I have absolutely no clue if they cause other injuries or not. What I'm saying is that in small single seaters frontal impacts are far more likely to result in broken/crushed feet/legs than neck injuries, in my years of watching/being involved in club racing I've never seen a serious neck injury, have seen back injuries but still far more broken arms/legs so maybe a HANS device is not the best use of a budget.

By side impact protection I was really talking about protection from cars physically coming through into the cockpit rather than neck/high side protection. If you've got radiators in your sidepods in a position where they will take the blow in the event of a heavy T-bone then you should be ok, if you don't and are wanting to improve safety then finding something to absorb an impact could be a good place to start.

It's true that a carbon fibre nose cone will do a bit more damage to a car but will still shatter and certainly won't penetrate through a radiator. They save both money in tub/pedal box/suspension repairs and substantially improve safety in a car where otherwise with a GRP nose it's the pedal box/drivers feet that actually take the impact. In some cars this isn't the case anyway so if there's a substantial amount of chassis before the pedal box the strength of the nose cone is much less important, generally it seems the post mid 90s Van Diemen chassis are particularly vulnerable to frontal impacts without a carbon fibre nose cone, but I expect they were designed/crash tested with carbon fibre nose cones and the GRP ones have come about because they're easier and cheaper to make than the originals and offer no real performance disadvantage.

Of course there's always a risk of having a crash where a HANS device will save your bacon but the relative risk of it happening is pretty small good frontal and side impact absorbing material and disciplined checking of every suspension bolt everytime before the car is run and parking a car you know is not right will reduce mechanically failures and probably reduce the chance of getting injured more than a HANS device will in the kind of environment you're going to be racing in.

So yes Jamexing is right in that in the event of an massive frontal impact a HANS device is likely to prevent fatal neck injuries but the chance of you actually having one is very low. Ultimately it's your choice, I'd suggest getting a decent helmet with HANS mounts to leave your options open and then go do a few races and make your decision then.
A HANS device is surely a lifesaver. You saw it at Hockenheim a few weeks ago when Tom Kristensen was t-boned by Premat in the DTM race. At impact, he was hit with 20 G - pretty damned much! It's only because of HANS, he did not suffer anything but a massive headache.

I work with a lot of danish racedrivers, and most of them use HANS. (In the Danish Touringcar Championship, it's illegal to race without ) None of them feel uncomfortable wearing it. You have to get used to the fact that you can't move your head so much, but it's not a problem after a while.

If I was to do some racing, I would certainly spend the money on HANS. Maybe you won't ever need it - that would be great - but if you get involved in an accident, you will appreciate it afterwards.

Enjoy your racing - I'd wish it was me
Just for interest:

The threshold for survivable peak g-force is set at 100g for the "average" driver (male, 5 foot 8inches, 70kg, relatively healthy and reasonably fit). But in fact, RL top profrssional drivers (F-1, WRC, etc.) have been known to survive peak gs higher than that.

Honestly, 20g isn't really THAT much if exerted over very short durations. Acrobatic pilots do 13gs quite regularly and cope pretty well as long as the duration of exertion isn't too long. Back in the Apollo era human to space launches experienced over 10gs for extended (quite a few seconds) periods of time, though the fact that the astronauts had excellent cardiovascular health (elite pilots) and specially designed seats/g-suits helped.

Conclusion? A strong and fit body does a better job of keeping itself in one piece. Superior mechanical strength and resilliance see to that.
Quote from Jamexing :Conclusion? A strong and fit body does a better job of keeping itself in one piece. Superior mechanical strength and resilliance see to that.

I hurt my shoulder yesterday. Not sure how. Doesn't bode well does it
HANS device isn't going to make any accident worse.
It's just a matter of getting used to it, will feel weird at 1st but a few sessions using it and you wont even notice its there.
If you are going for one i'd suggest going and getting yourself fitted for the right one. Too big or too small and it will be extremely uncomfortable (i think it was Gronholm who showed this best the 1st time he used it.).

I've had some massive shunts in my days (all without HANS) and i'm still here!
Yeah, there is a company called Stand 21 near Brands (only a couple of hours from me) who stock them, so I can go and get a trial fit. The downside is that I can't easily try it in the car (unless I tow it to Stand 21 too!). I'm fairly sure a Medium 30° will be right, but there is some thought that a 20° might be better...
Quote from tristancliffe :Yeah, there is a company called Stand 21 near Brands (only a couple of hours from me) who stock them, so I can go and get a trial fit. The downside is that I can't easily try it in the car (unless I tow it to Stand 21 too!). I'm fairly sure a Medium 30° will be right, but there is some thought that a 20° might be better...

Ye i know of Stand 21 Massive company, anyway the 20° or 30° will depend on how your seat is in your car. Usually 20° is for SS because you tend to lie down in the car nearly, however in saying that some people do like to sit very upright in their cars.
No, 30° is usually for SS, because you lie down (bigger angle). But because I'm taller than your average F3 driver (who are midgets), and we are using a GRP seat (mainly so we can use more than one driver, e.g. at Sprints or at tests) I sit relatively upright, and am right on the limit of 20°/30°. Maybe a 25° one would be better - I think Stand21 actually do do a 25° one, but perhaps only in small...

But I'm pretty sure I'll be getting one, but not in time for Bank Holiday Monday (Combe race).
oh yeah sorry i always get mixed up, i see what u mean about the seat.
well good luck on Monday
This thread is in desperate need of a hijack! :mischievo

Tristan, I saw someone who looked like you on the telly the other day, but I can't remember who it was. I'm going to smoke a fag and try to remember, brb!
Quote from thisnameistaken :This thread is in desperate need of a hijack! :mischievo

Tristan, I saw someone who looked like you on the telly the other day, but I can't remember who it was. I'm going to smoke a fag and try to remember, brb!

lol! n00b!
I can't remember.

Can anyone else think of a TV personality who is sort-of funny-looking?
Grrrr at Kevs hijack. Not because of the hijack itself, but because of the posting of Brokeback comparison images. Double grrr, with (heterosexual) knobs on!!!
That's actually quite freaky. I don't think it works most of the time, but those angles do capture a likeness. I'll start going by the name Ace then
I couldn't believe my luck when I found a picture of you actually dressed like Rimmer!

He looks more like you in the first series.

HANS Device opinions
(25 posts, started )
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