I was wondering about this, maybe for S3? I will write a bit more later, but for now, I have some key points.

-Very popular and famous enigne, that uses revolutionary design to achive good power with half the weight, and less stress that a reciprocating piston engine.

-sounds wonderful, and has high RPM potential for road cars.

-The Wankel rotary is very compact, and hence allows for very good weight distrbution and low polar moment of an automobile.

-Given that you have free roaming car design, and don't need to confide with regulations like in real life, it will be a lot easier to design a car around this engine.

-This engine is just overall great, unusual, and IMO, would make a great adittion to LFS.

-The REAL reason the wankel rotary has been banned from F1, is becasue it just was TOO ****ing fast... and people didn't like it.:thumbsdow


EDIT: Imo, you could do a TBO class car with a turbo 2 rotor, a GTR class with an N/A 3-rotor, and even a S3 class that was proposed with the Le-Mans style cars, with an N/A 4-rotor, like the 787B, which outirght OWNED Le-Mans.

Thank you for your time. I know you have a lot of other things on your hands, to take care of first, but I'm not asking for something right away, but rather as a consideration for the future. I can also guarantee, that a car with this engine would be VERY popular and competitive in the game.:lfs:

I have made a list of videos that show it's potential, Here are some links:

How it works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGrD7FTFLJc

3-Rotor Race car testing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9dwENa9A5c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8K9RGUF3Bo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qPlvCKwaBU

Air-cooled Wankel enigne used in a Kart: http://www.karting1.co.uk/wankel-kart-test.htm

Legendary 787B:
Nurburgring lap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF5_CqUCRIE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubdOVBZ1WcE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceKixXx5Rj8

For the DRIFTER CREW:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok4KCrps8Vs

Also, I think this would be a nice feature to add to LFS later on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlejBevEeRA and no that's not a kit on there.

well, THAT thread is shure as hell not going to convince anyone...

Great engine overall, but just don't forget to bring a bottle of motor along with you in the trunk on every drive...

And forget it for any car that has to move at less than 40mph for any length of time - the vast lack or torque these engines produce mean they are useless and slow on the road. On the track where speeds are rarely less than 40mph and revs can be kept high they are okay I suppose.

But they sound silly. They eat seals. And barry-boys think they are the bees knees because of the Mazda adverts and the bodykit explosion for the RX-7.

Quote from tristancliffe :

And forget it for any car that has to move at less than 40mph for any length of time - the vast lack or torque these engines produce mean they are useless and slow on the road. On the track where speeds are rarely less than 40mph and revs can be kept high they are okay I suppose.

But they sound silly. They eat seals. And barry-boys think they are the bees knees because of the Mazda adverts and the bodykit explosion for the RX-7.

The sound part is highly subjective, but yes they aren't the most practical engines for real world use. On the track, the Mazda rotary was deemed so domineering after its debut victory that it was banned. Turbocharging could compensate for the lack of low and midrange torque, but the sequential turbo from the RX-7 was a complete PITA for both engineers and technicians who worked on them. Wasn't terribly reliable too and even if it worked perfectly it STILL had flatspots.

Oh, besides oil, do remember to stock up on apex seals too...

Quote from tristancliffe :

They eat seals.

Here is a wankel, with a Killerwhale bodykit, eating a seal

Why Wankels are crap

1. No torque
2. Eat seals
3. Worse fuel economy
4. Only worth bothering with at high RPM.
   

And it never was allowed in F1 in the first place IIRC - they got banned from Group C as they could not calculate an appropriate equivilance formula. However, they are currently legal (I think) in LMP but no-one uses them.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Here is a wankel, with a Killerwhale bodykit, eating a seal

But the race is nearly over. He can clearly sea the lion from there.

Do stop monkeying about. I'm not going to panda to your silly little comments. I wouldn't want to make a fowl out of myself.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Do stop monkeying about. I'm not going to panda to your silly little comments. I wouldn't want to make a fowl out of myself.

Sorry for that, I didn't mean to stray off topic on porpoise.

I refuse to goat you any further.

You're sloth as bad as leech otter.

More to the point:

The REAL trouble with rotaries besides the apex seals, lack of low end torque in N/A examples, etc is its fuel energy conversion efficiency.

The real problem with them is that their disproportionately high fuel consumption is a result of their inability to convert fuel to mechanical energy quite as effeciently as piston engines, compared to the current FSI petrols and especially turbodiesels with high pressure direct injection. Due to the inherent design of the Wankel, it is extremely difficult to design and implement rotor geometry that can yield the high level of compression piston engines could much more easily achieve.

The flatspot issue could be countered with VGT (Variable Geometry Turbo), a system much simpler and more effective than those horribly complicated and gremlin infested sequential turbos of old. We'll just have to wish for a new RX-7 and HOPEFULLY Mazda bothers to use VGTs...

When was the last time anyone saw a rotary with compression ratios along the lines of 13:1?

Amazing work, tristan and Gunn.

+1 for me consindiring all the cars engines have their weaknesses sp? and i LOVE rotary's

To all the above: clearly, you should follow the advice of someone's avatar, and remove youself from the convesration. I posted this to discuss about it being in the game. NOT about how it is to drive on the street, or reliability, or anything else. It seems like no one read any of what I mentioned in my first post, and rather just stupidly commented on an engine they barely know anything about.

The rotary finished the 24 hrs of LeMans going full blast, and after it was pulled apart right afer the race, people were amazed how little wear the enigne actualy had. THAT should tell you about its reliability.

The main reason rotaries are deemed "unreliable" is becasue they are often built half assed. They try to pull crazy ower out of them, upwards of 600HP and expect them to be as reliable as my grandma's Honda. A LOT of rotaries are often tuned improperly, resulting in catastropic engine failture. Shure, a 600HP slab with a honking turbo hanging off the side needs a professional to properly tune it, but so would a comparable 4 cylinder. Also, it would have a simmilar life span to a 4-banger of the same power level. In all, if people weren't so ingorant, maybe today, this wouldn't be the case.

Let's say, that even if we WERE to go with your silly accusations, none of that would matter anyway. except fuel economy. In case you haven't noticed, this is a RACING game, so drivability of a rotary would not be a concern, but it isn't any worse than of a Chevrolet Corvette. Eating apex seals... also not a concern, listed above. Oil consumption is about 1 quart for every 1500miles on the "OLD" old examples, and CONSIDERABLY better on the bewer examples. The reason a rotary engine eats oil, is becasue this is part of it's lubrication system. These engines have oil injectors that take oil from the main supply (a very small amount, and spray it into the cylinders) An FC3S 13B has 4 injectors. A FD3S 13B-REW has only 2, due to improved rotor housing surface design, and less friction. The RX-8 Renisis has a separate tank for this injected oil, so you dont run out of your normal supply. Also, you should only use normal motor oil in a rotary, and 3 brands of specialized synthetic ONLY. All other types of synthetic oil interfere with the operation, due to the oil not burning properly and causing carbon buildup.

Note about fuel milage of an average RX-7: It actualy isn't all that bad compare to other sports cars with simmilar power levels. a 300hp 13B Trubo rotary gets around 14mpg for highway driving at 80mph. (what most people in America drive at, since the speed limit is barely enforced unless you go at +100mph.)

Now go study.

there is soooo much misinformation in this thread, its not even funny.

where to start...i guess fuel economy
the fuel economy of rotaries has been increasing with each generation. the first rotary engines got pretty bad fuel economy, but then again, so did the first piston engines, but like Mako said, they actually get close to the same gas mileage as similarly powered boingers.

The FD (when not driven at WOT) gets around 15mpg in the city, and gets 25-27mpg on the highway. The RX-8 gets around 18mpg in the city, and around 25-27mpg on the highway. Compare that to the V6 Accord, which gets around 19mpg in the city, and 28-30mpg on the highway. Not that much worse.

There are 2 problem areas for rotary fuel economy. one is the shape of the rotor...it creates a long combustion chamber. and at high rpms the a/f mixture might not complete combustion before exhaust. but this has partially been addressed by the firing order of the plugs. second problem is primarly limited to FD and prior rotary engines because exhaust gases were able to leak back into the intake "stroke". Changing the port locations on the rx8 all but elimiated this problem.

and to the person that asked about compression, its not 13:1, but the renesis engine in the rx8 is 11:1. pretty close.

also considering the piston engine has had developed over 100 years and by every automotive company out there and the rotary engine has had only half the development time, and only 1 company, the rotary engine is doing remarkably well. try to imagine where it would be if it had the same development resources as the piston engine.

Oil usage, yes, rotary engines do burn oil, and they are supposed to, as that is the source of lubrication for the apex seals. the rate at which they use oil depends on how hard it is driven, but typically on older rotaries it is 1qt/1000miles, and on the rx8 it is 1qt/3000 miles. Although, Mako was incorrect about the rx8 having a seperate tank for the oil that is injected into the engine. the oil metering pump draws the oil injected into the from the regular supply.

Both the apex seal failure and overall reliability can attribute to improper tuning, like Mako said. And even then, it is mainly related to FD. The FD is an incredible car, but it did have some flaws, mainly being inadequate cooling, especially considering it needed it the most because of the twin turbos.

Take the FD out of the equation, and the rotary engine is extremely reliable. It is not uncommon to hear about FBs and FCs with over 300k on the odometer. Compared to a piston engine, the rotary engine is extremely simple.

now, on to power. the rotary engine produces a very flat torque curve, so, even though it doesn't make all that much torque (comparitivly), it makes it very low, and maintains it. For example, the rx8 produces about 130ft/lbs of torque at the wheel peak, but its making 125ft/lbs by 3.5k rpm. That's more than most econoboxes make peak. and no one complains about econoboxes not being driveable. Fact is, rotary engines are very drivable on the street.

Here are a couple of videos from the Rolex Series when I was up in Limerock Park watching the two RX-8's hold their own against the Cobra's, Porsche's, and BMW's. I didn't record these, but I had a blast being there and listening to the many great cars. The RX-8's were the loudest IMO and sounded insane at WOT. The main event was a 2.5 hour race that was very fun to watch.

Coming out of the Paddock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIP7PqZ_6Cg

Coming up over the hill (No chicane in use. During the race, the Porsche's were pulling almost foot wheelies coming off of that hill):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNNFt3qBk2A

Making a pit stop (Anyone can walk up to that wall the camera man is standing right in front of and watch through the fence during the race, real exciting watching them change tires, add fuel, and the mandatory driver change):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPxv62g4yck

Quote from glyphon :

there is soooo much misinformation in this thread, its not even funny.

Dude, THANK YOU! You proved my point even further, the rotary effing RULES! :heyjoe67_

Also, about the RX-8's oiling tank... I thought that they solved that problem by now.. guess not. But I'm going to try to do this modification to my own car in a while, and wouldn't you agree that this would make sense? (Through, I see that Mazda might have not done this because some people would just plain forget to refill it)

Quote from Dennisjr13 :

The RX-8's were the loudest IMO and sounded insane at WOT.

an unrestricted rotary is loud. the rotary powered cars in ALMS is by far the loudest car on the track. best description i've heard of an unmuffled rotary engine is "god's chainsaw"

Say what you want about rotary engines, but I simply love them from a mechanical standpoint. I find their workings extremely interesting.

Like said before, simulating the Wankel is simply a matter of torque/hp curves.

Guys, unlike some here I don't really have anything against rotaries, just pointing out their annoying characteristics that make them a bit more of a hassle to live with.

BTW, compression ratio of 11:1? Here's what I got from a Mazda's official websites:

http://www.mazda.com.au/rx8/specifications.aspx?ID=43

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWe ... Specs&vehicleCode=RX8

http://4a.mazda.com/product/rx8/spec.html

?!?!?!?

Good news: emissions and fuel efficiency has improved quite a bit thanks to more development. Bad news? It'll still drink oil at a rate piston engines in good condition don't. The new NA powerband is actually better than the old powerband from the tubo 13B, though it was more a problem of the fiendishly complex and unrelaible turbo system than a fundamental problem of the engine itself (in case people misunderstood my previous post).

I'm all for putting a good RX-7 lookalike and drivealike in LFS, but as I've said before they're already struggling to get the 4 pot turbos right, so something like a rotary could be an even bigger nightmare.

everyone knows that rotary engines are cool , there lightweight but you need to modify the hell out of them to get a decent profromance ( hence why everyone sticks v8's and v6s in Mazda's and throw away the lame rotary )

for me i know they gety good gains in power ( mainly for overtaking on corners )

but i doubt that we will see one in the newer editions of lfs