I think it all comes down to respect. No one should push another driver of track, just cause they want to use all the track. If you are side by side after the appex, it aint right just to knock the other guy off.
Why is it that where ever you go, karters belive they have the right to pull moves like this.
Presume you were at conedodgers, ive been there quite alot lately but in the end i got peed off with noobs not even being able to drive in a straight line wothout hitting each other never mind turn 1
Never said anything against these two, or karting is wrong.
1) I said you are a jerk if you run someone off the road just because you can.
2) There are no karts in LFS.
nobody "owns" a corner. The other guy could have perfectly decided to stay side by side (if he had been fast enough), that wouldn't have give you the right to close the door if didn't had a sufficient overlap.
By the way, this is a bad example, the other guy was slower. A faster driver could have kept his position and beaten you in the next right hand corner.
Good clean overtake. Not sure how it's meaningful to this discussion though. I think if we want to continue this discussion we need a video of an incident that the thread starter was unhappy with so that we know what exactly we are talking about.
It's not very clear to see in the vid, but I don't think you "inherited" the racing line. You did have the right to the apex, but that doesn't mean you have a right to the exit. If the other guy needed to lift while there was still overlap, then you squeezed him.
As long as there is significant overlap, neither the inside driver nor the outside driver has exclusive rights to the corner. Both drivers must leave room for the other, so neither can take the optimal driving line. The inside driver must wait until he has fully overtaken the other, then he can use the full width of the track.
Your interpretation of the rules is biased towards the inside driver. He just needs to brake very late to get the apex, and then he can squeeze the other at corner exit, or block him when he tries a switchback.
(Maybe it's different in karting, because karts are too short to make 'overlap' meaningful, or because contact has less severe consequences.)
if alan had gone into the corner slower to allow the other guy room on the exit, he wouldnt have had enough overlap to 'present himself' to the other driver, and he would have got turned in on, resulting in a crash!
perfect manuver, had the other guy not tried to go round the outside, he probably could have lunged alan into the following right hander.
and anyway, the other guy probably went off track himself by getting power understeer when he booted the power!
But the debate is, and the point many of us have been making, is that if the car (black and yellow one in that case) had tried to hang on around the outside with marginal overlap (but enough to spin the other guy out), then that resulting crash would be entirely his fault. Just as it would be if instead of defending the place, the black and yellow car was trying to overtake around the outside. Sometimes someone has to lift on corner exit to avoid the contact, and invariably that responsibility lies with the one that does not have the racing line.
The black and yellow car did well, he saw the move coming and adjusted his course quickly, then was prepared to slot in behind if he had to. A lot of times that could have ended in a crash online.
mmm all I heard was, as you stated, was that he saw Senna overtaking in 'an outstanding way' in go-karts.
What this has to do with wether or not it is right to squezee someone off the track after going side by side through a corner is beyond me.
and the vid that you posted shows a faster driver basically lapping a backmarker, it may not have been a blue flag situation, but it did seem a huge diference of pace and therfore is null and void.
you can't simply brake very late to get the apex.. even if you somehow hit the inside line during the corner entry you'll get beaten on the exit.
You can only stay on the outside if you are really REALLY fast enough to stay fully alongside by going outside of the racing line. Otherwise you MUST back off or it is most likely that you will cause a contact and will be the one to blame. But there is a sensible option for the defender. If you missed the right moment and didn't block the attacking car which of course used the opportunity to take the inside line DON'T try to keep up with it taking the outside line. Try to go as deep as you can and cross the line of the overtaking car (just behind of it) that way you get much better exit speed and hopefuly can get the position back
I never knew if this maneuver is legal or not, so if someone can help me out..
Say i'm going bumper to bumper with someone, both following ideal racing line, the guy in front of me takes the outside to inside(ideal) braking into corner, but i move to the inside right before the braking point and take the inside line, forcing him to go outside or to lift off and position himself behind me...
I don't think that's a legal move but i noticed that many do it online... Then the "half of the car before the corner" rule goes into water.. ?
Yes, the move that Massa (unsuccesfully) did on Hamilton in the first race, and next thing in most cases is understeer for the driver that atempted that, but if manages to keep the car on the line and take the inside, than it's legal?
Is there a rule, how close must he be to the other driver, say if he's a car behind and he squiz into the inside, forcing the leading driver to go outside.... hm, doesn't sound fair to me...
Yes, that move is completely legal. The only thing that i would like to point out is that being on the outside makes you able to brake later. Which of course Hammilton did and Massa had to brake even later if he wanted to get the inside of the corner.. but he couldn't stop himself in time.
Lewis did exactly what i tried to describe in the post above. He didn't try to keep on the outside, he went deeper into the corner to get a better exit.. well that doesn't really matter as Massa went off anyway.
Not sure how much exactly you have to be alongside with the defending car to have the right to the corner. From what i remember it is half the car's lenght but i may be wrong
im surprised no one has pointed out the obvious yet which is that the corner is a stupid example as the outside line is that much longer that its impossible to keep up in the first place
the outside line is always much longer, and its normally pretty pointless trying to stay on the outside (unless in the case of the chincane after the harpin, you will end up on the inside for the next turn if u styay on the outside of the 1st 1)
in my opinion, if you can see them on the inside then it is best to let them through, because if you turn in you KNOW they will be there! causing an accident.
Wait, now i'm confused, i am not talking about side by side corner aproach by two drivers, so the one on the inside line has to be half of a car ahead of the other, i am saying if the guy behind me desides to take the inside line right before the braking point, ie braking late, so i can't move move anywhere else then outside because of him, and also if two cars are aproaching a turn and the one on the inside is NOT half of the car ahead of the outside(ideal line) driver, how's that legal? Why is there a rule of "half the car ahead" in the first place?
Well, and depending on when exactly you 'lunge' they might just be right in blaming you. It all depends, really. There rarely is clear right or wrong. Or, to put it differently: In rL-racing, you know you've done something wrong, when you're being penalized by the stewards.
If the green car doesn't get understeer and manages to stay on the inside, it's legal? Isn't that totaly against the rules and what happened with the rule that you have to be side by side and half the lenght of the car ahead if you want to take an inside line?
The racing line is a concept totally irrelevant in this case. Nobody is in the racing line when 2 drivers enter a corner side by side. And the one who get the apex doesn't get a magic ticket which give him access to the whole width of the track. He must make a sufficient overlap and complete the pass, that's all. Nobody has to lift to let him pass.
The fact that a line is faster or slower, or that a strategy to let the overtaker pass can be a better choice is also irrelevant. The overtaker can't just say he has the right to go wherever he wants only because he took the apex.
By the way, Senna just proved how bad his manner are at the CD3 server. He was saying just before the race to someone else that man should hold the inside at turn 1, that it was the safest way. I was just behind him at the start, and what do I see at turn 1 ? Senna bumping other people to make room on the inside...Yeah right.
