he cut across infront of me at the last second while i was on the inside

Let's not make this a blaming and shaming thread, please!

(And besides, we all know that senna has a reputation for reckless driving )

@boris: the way I interpret your pictures, it does in fact look like a completely legal move. If the green car is fully alongside the grey car *before* the turn in point, that is. And as the cars don't look as if they have started to turn in, yet, the green car should have the right to the apex. If the grey car however, manages to stay alongside the green one through the turn, it has the right to the exit and the green car is not allowed to squeeze it off the track.

Just my humble opinion, of course.

edited for clarification: The green car doens't even need to be fully alongside before the turn in point in order to have the right to the apex, considerable overlap is sufficient. the opinions what exactly considerable means differ, of course. Personally I think it should be a little more than what would be deemed acceptable in rL racing, since we lack peripheral vision in 3D-land.

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

mmm all I heard was, as you stated, was that he saw Senna overtaking in 'an outstanding way' in go-karts.

What this has to do with wether or not it is right to squezee someone off the track after going side by side through a corner is beyond me.

and the vid that you posted shows a faster driver basically lapping a backmarker, it may not have been a blue flag situation, but it did seem a huge diference of pace and therfore is null and void.

yeah. you guys are all saying what i was trying to allude to.

Quote from Linsen :

@boris: the way I interpret your pictures, it does in fact look like a completely legal move. If the green car is fully alongside the grey car *before* the turn in point, that is.

The gray car on the picture started his braking when the green went inside..
Maybe i understood that rule completely wrong all the time, you're saying that if they are side by side BEFORE they start to turn in the corner it's ok, it's ok to brake later then the car ahead and assume your position next to him before both start to turn into the corner.. That makes sense..

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

in my opinion, if you can see them on the inside then it is best to let them through, because if you turn in you KNOW they will be there! causing an accident.

that's exactly what i was saying. If someone gets through to the inside one should turn in late and get a better exit speed so there is a possibility to fight the lost position back

Quote from marsaz :

that's exactly what i was saying. If someone gets through to the inside one should turn in late and get a better exit speed so there is a possibility to fight the lost position back

you guys make me laugh with your rules. There is not 1 good choice.

It all depends of the type of the corner, the length of the straight which will follow or the direction of the next corner, the eventual banking, the kerbs and runoff area, the opponent and his driving habits or even driving style, etc.

You can't just say : when someone pass you, you must do that. It's just plain stupid. We are not robots nor should we be expected to do exactly the same things/errors/tactics lap after lap, race after race.

1 thing is sure : one should not push someone out of the track, because he is faster or has a better line.

nobody said you must do it everytime being overtaken but this way of trying to get back on the exit when you lost the entry works on most of the corners. (remember the Hammilton vs Massa example)

And it will certainly be not you who's laughing when you'll be squeezed off the track while thinking "nobody can push me off!". Nobody keeps themselves on the outside line for too long (except situations where overtaking car is too slow to be in front by the exit of the corner) in real life because they know they will be squeezed off. It is racing, not gentelmen's club.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

Nice post. On my server we run dual class FOX and FO8 and so the rules are very specific to my server. The welcome message states the rules are available on the web but I know people don't read them - even some of the people entered in the league. I can tell by the conversations they have.

One could write an insim app that would only allow drivers who have been to the website and confirmed they have read the rules join the race.

If I ran a serious server, I'd probably do that.

Quote from marsaz :

And it will certainly be not you who's laughing when you'll be squeezed off the track while thinking "nobody can push me off!". Nobody keeps themselves on the outside line for too long (except situations where overtaking car is too slow to be in front by the exit of the corner) in real life because they know they will be squeezed off. It is racing, not gentelmen's club.

sometimes this is the pusher who end up in the wall, and I'll have no pity for him on shuch case.

It's not about being in a gentlemen's club. You can be competitive yet fair. I had some fair races last night, and other much dirtier. If I race a clean racer, I just try to be as fair as possible. If he is dirty, I give up after a few laps and beat him at his own game if I can. Funny as some of them are prompt to whining and call names once they are pushed off the track while they have kept doing it the whole evening to others. :haha:

It's not the "pusher" it's the driver who's taking his line and if the outside-behind car makes a contact it takes the responsibility about what happens next I am not talking here about the guys who randomly run people of the road...
And who said squeezing someone isn't fair? If you are being squeezed and you don't back off you simply run out of track or make a contact it's simple as that. In both cases it's your fault. If you want to keep it clean, back off a bit and fight for it in the next corner or so

Quote from marsaz :

It's not the "pusher" it's the driver who's taking his line and if the outside-behind car makes a contact it takes the responsibility about what happens next I am not talking here about the guys who randomly run people of the road...
And who said squeezing someone isn't fair? If you are being squeezed and you don't back off you simply run out of track or make a contact it's simple as that. In both cases it's your fault. If you want to keep it clean, back off a bit and fight for it in the next corner or so

you don't understand that the driver on the outside has the right to not back off. And you can also say that the driver on the inside takes the responsibility if he hit the one on the outside and spin because of it.

You also don't understand that the outside line can be as fast as the inside if the banking allow it or if the tires are in a better shape. Both drivers can exit the corner side by side.

Quote from Tomi :

you don't understand that the driver on the outside has the right to not back off. And you can also say that the driver on the inside takes the responsibility if he hit the one on the outside and spin because of it.

You also don't understand that the outside line can be as fast as the inside if the banking allow it or if the tires are in a better shape. Both drivers can exit the corner side by side.

i've mentioned above that if the car on the outside can be fast enough to keep up with the overtaking car and both cars can exit side by side they both have to leave eachother space. But that doesn't happen too often as the car on the inside takes the racing line and has more grip so more speed towards the exit. In most cases it will be fully ahead by the exit of the corner and even if it is almost ahead it has the right to block (squeeze) the car on the outside. The overtaking driver takes the responsibility to make the move clean during the entry of the corner. When the cars are alongside both have to leave eachother space. The exit belongs to whoever manages to reach it first.
Yes, i don't understand that the outside line can be as fast as the inside line because it simply can't and there are no banked corners in circuits. And a car without enough grip (weared tyres) will not be able to keep up anyway so it wont be overtaking anyone.

Quote from marsaz :

Yes, i don't understand that the outside line can be as fast as the inside line because it simply can't and there are no banked corners in circuits.

There are. I don't talk about high degrees, but enough to give the outside line a chance.

Quote :

And a car without enough grip (weared tyres) will not be able to keep up anyway so it wont be overtaking anyone.

Never heard about Gilles Villeneuve ?

Quote from Tomi :

Never heard about Gilles Villeneuve ?

Never heared about actually making sense?


And i agree with Alan. His posts are sensible and it is 100% clear he has race track experience.

On the track when i'm overtaking someone, i don't look at him i look at the gap in which i must get in. That way most of the opponents get surprised seeing me steaming through the inside. Focusing on your line works better than focusing on your opponent.

Quote from marsaz :

Never heared about actually making sense?

It makes sense. Gilles Villeneuve at Dijon had worn out tires. Yet he still overtook René Arnoux several time. And though they made contact, both of them made room for the other on the outside.

Quote from marsaz :

It's not the "pusher" it's the driver who's taking his line

What do you mean, "his" line?

That's the issue at the heart of this - the misguided belief that either car has a "right" to anything when sharing the corner. It's been said again and again in this topic but a minority of people just don't seem to understand it, which is quite frustrating. Forgive me, therefore, if I continue.

Selective illiteracy/comprehension is often a feature of internet forums (fora?) where individuals are deliberately unwilling to concede that they're wrong in the face of general public opinion. One option is to sit and quietly laugh at them, but when they're advocating running people off the road unnecessarily, another option is to do this:

JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE APEX DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE "RIGHT" TO THE WHOLE WIDTH OF THE TRACK, NOR ANY "RIGHT" TO THE OPTIMUM RACING LINE, FOR AS LONG AS THE CAR YOU ARE OVERTAKING HAS THE SPEED AND SKILL TO KEEP UP AROUND THE OUTSIDE.

There, does that help?

Of course I can think of many different situations where sometimes you could get away with a squeeze. For example, if someone outbraked me down the inside into the first hairpin on AS3, and I managed to keep up around the outside but with only my front bumper level with his rear bumper, then that's not enough significant overlap to expect the guy that overtook me to give me all the room I want. In addition, I'd be far enough behind to be able to see that he clearly had track position and that it would be advantageous for me to tuck in behind him.

What if I'd managed to keep up a bit more round the outside? If I was more competitive around the outside of the corner, perhaps with my front bumper alongside his door or either wheel, then I'm not really ready to concede defeat (depending on the track/corner/situation, obviously). In my mind, in this situation we both have to share the corner. There is significant overlap, I'm still in with a chance, and the guy overtaking has absolutely bugger all "right" to take the optimum wide line on the exit and run me off the road. He has no more right to run wide on the exit than I had to turn in on him during corner entry.

It varies depending on the corner, imho. The first (or indeed, either) of the double hairpins at Aston isn't a good exmaple - a better example is T1 at Aston Club/Grand Touring. It's banked and it's quite common for the defending, outside car to be able to keep pace and sometimes retake the position on the exit of the corner. This is A Good Thing, it makes for close and fun racing. It's A Bad Thing if the car on thh inside, on the apex, runs the other car wide simply because they think it's "their line".

Then there's all this stuff about most LFS racers not "presenting themselves" properly for an overtake at a corner. Well, I think most people will try and pull out of the slipstream, brake as late as they can and cleanly pull through on the inside. If by "presenting yourself" you actually mean just lunging hugely down the inside, almost outbraking yourself and nearly stopping on the apex just so you can make the corner, then pushing wide on the exit because you need to recover some speed - well in my book that's not racing, nor is it really wrecking. It's just driving like a twat.

alot of people here dont understand real racing so its pretty pointless continuing, because its hard to know whats right until you have actually experienced it... in real life almost all people here would get BATTERED, apart from the sensible few, or the ones here with real experience.
this is a RACING SIMULATOR, not a hotlapping sim and people doing things you may not like is just part of racing.

schumacher getting binned at turn 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... ;mode=related&search=

before i raced in real life id try and go round the outside, now i realise its just pointless, and i had it furtherly proved to me a few weeks ago.

look at alans video, at around 40 seconds villeneuve totally stuffs the car up the inside, which makes the other fella see him and realise that he cant turn in. most LFSers would have gotten 50% beside and T boned the other fella, because they wanted to leave room on the exit.

Quote from Alan Dove :

.... and if that means STUFFING YOU up the inside when you least expect it....DEAL WITH IT! That's good hard racing..... I am NOT going to punt you off, or 'ram' you onto the grass... but I am not going to give you any more room than I have too..... and if you end up on the grass because you try and be silly around the outside...then tough....

Mind of we see a replay of you doing that?

I'm getting mixed feelings whether that's cool or not based on the amount of ellipsis and exclamation marks

Quote from marsaz :

i've mentioned above that if the car on the outside can be fast enough to keep up with the overtaking car and both cars can exit side by side they both have to leave eachother space. But that doesn't happen too often as the car on the inside takes the racing line and has more grip so more speed towards the exit. In most cases it will be fully ahead by the exit of the corner and even if it is almost ahead it has the right to block (squeeze) the car on the outside. The overtaking driver takes the responsibility to make the move clean during the entry of the corner. When the cars are alongside both have to leave eachother space. The exit belongs to whoever manages to reach it first.
Yes, i don't understand that the outside line can be as fast as the inside line because it simply can't and there are no banked corners in circuits. And a car without enough grip (weared tyres) will not be able to keep up anyway so it wont be overtaking anyone.

Sorry, dude. If there's ANY overlap at corner exit, and if the outside driver sticks to his line and doesn't come down on the guy on the bottom, he has every right to be there and if the guy on the bottom slides up to squeeze the outside driver and there's a wreck, it's the fault of the guy who did the squeezing. Period.

p.s., nice pass, Alan.

Quote from Alan Dove :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwkQZKgqT1A

and that is quite tame for my standards lol

You've posted it again. What does it show? The outside driver never had a chance in hell to stay on the outside which is why he wasn't on your outside at the exit of the corner which is why nobody cares if you use use the full track width or not.

I thought we were talking about using the full track width when there are two cars overlapping at the exit.

Quote from ayrton senna 87 :

alot of people here dont understand real racing so its pretty pointless continuing, because its hard to know whats right until you have actually experienced it

My god, could you be any more arrogant. Really the inabilty to see that as the 'pusher' you are in fact cutting across somebody else's line, even if there are on the outside.

And before you call me a non-racer, I have raced and still do (when every the girlfreind lets me.

Quote from Alan Dove :

He could have stayed on the outside, there is grip there..... but he didn't because he was smart....

Come on, that's misleading. It's apparent even from that video that he didn't hang on the outside because a) he wasn't expecting you to make that move and b) he thus didn't make the right kind of corner entry to hang with you.

It's one thing to go into a corner intending to fight for an outside line (say a drag race down the front straight that leads to a side-by-side cornering battle) and another to have someone come up your inside and have to react to that.

That awesome Fisichella/Button battle that just happened in the USGP is an example of what happens when people don't give up corners: awesome racing.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

That awesome Fisichella/Button battle that just happened in the USGP is an example of what happens when people don't give up corners: awesome racing.

Yep, no squeezing or pushing, just great racing with respect for the other driver!