Thank you. Quite impressive! I'm officially jealous!
I guess it must be hard to play LFS without the Frex, when you've tried it!
Thank you. Quite impressive! I'm officially jealous!
I guess it must be hard to play LFS without the Frex, when you've tried it!
it looks like james may was there. it would be awesome if LFS was introduced to Top Gear!
We can dream!
I dont use the frex setup all the time as the movement adds several seconds to my lap times. It take some getting used to so i use a G25 on a desk as many do for my normal racing.
Even though the laps are slower, the enjoyment level much higher.
There is no doubt that LFS will be simple to market once it gets to S2 final or even S3 but i personally feel it would be a mistake to market it until its finished. Word of mouth works well at the moment for an unfinished sim.
Just like ConeDodgers and the Trackday events i have 100's of ideas to help promote LFS once its finished.
Birder: How is the Frex motion simulator? I don't know anyone else who's got one, do you want to give us a quick review? 
considering the way it works and his comment on it adding seconds to his laptimes i supoosed its pretty ... bad
from what ive seen in videos i guess it completely disconnects you from the wheel
nice article btw
(deggis)
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by deggis
Hi
To be fair SimConMotion (SCM) works better with GT Legends, rfactor, GTR2 and Race than LFS. I dont think its LFS just that Frex have not bothered that much with the drivers.
I think they think that its easier to sell to the huge GTL and GTR2 market than LFS and that as LFS is still Alpha it will keep changing.
There is a great review at RSC Forum by jon_B and i repeat it here.
Frex GP – SimConMotion, H Shifter, Shifter +, DFP Wheel Kit Full Review
I have been running sims on and off ever since the launch of Grand Prix Legends in 1998. Since then I have used a variety of hardware including Act Labs wheel and shifter and more recently Logitechs - including their DFP.
I have started to get into Simulators in a big way for about a year now focusing on GTR, GTL and rFactor. Up until recently I have been running a DFP with ECCI 6000 2 pedal set up. I have now upgraded the ECCI pedals with a clutch and the High Def USB to run independently from the DFP( a must IMHO).
SimConMotion Ordering
When you order from the Frex GP web site you need to be clear as to what components you require, though questions raised through the Frex section of this forum are usually answered quickly. Frex need to provide an FAQ
To build a full simconmotion simulator you will need to order the following:
Simonconmotion
Simconbase
Frex Cockpit
You will then need to buy yourself:
A seat – I went for the Sparco Evo (fibreglass race seat in black)
Mounting kit for above
Harness – strongly recommended to hold you tightly in
And last but not least an AC/DC 12v 3amp (anything up to 6amp) power adaptor to power it.
Ordering and Setting Up
Once you have ordered online you receive an order confirmation. At this stage I would have expected an estimated shipment date from Frex but nothing. Once again if you send a post via this forum you usually get a response straight back – though I think Frex need to include more automated responses and be a little more pro-active in their communication on shipping/ delivery etc. Once my order was ready to be shipped, I got a paypal request. My order was shipped within 3 working days of payment and only took 4 days to arrive to the UK – pretty good going from Japan! All in all the order took about 6 weeks though this was mainly due to the manufacture of another item I ordered (the Frex H shifter).
Two large parcels arrived at my door – once being the Frex cockpit including additional tubing for the simconmotion elements and the other contained all other major components including brackets/ nuts/ bolts two black control unit boxes and power adaptor unit, instructions etc. The packaging is really nice with immaculate small black boxes containing some of the key components, all well labelled and bundled together in a robust, secure manor.
All components are very well engineered of high quality with good attention to detail. I have to say, it all initially seems a little daunting – there are over a hundred nuts and bolts, brackets and other components for you to assemble. The key point to remember is that this is not an IKEA flat pack type of assembly where you can loosely follow the instructions – you need to look at the images very closely and in step, do not cut corners. There were at least two occasions where I had assumed something only to find me wasting one or two hours having to dismantle and reassemble. The supplied instructions are actually pretty good – though I do think Frex needs to improve the wiring section to include more photos instead of drawings.
Total build time was between 20 to 25 hours, though I am a bit of a perfectionist and I have made a few alterations to the suggested lay out swapping a few of the chassis components around to give much more leg room. I am 1.93 meters tall (6ft 4 inches). I also purchased the Frex DFP wheel , H shifter and Shifter + , so had to connect these and my ECCI 6000 pedals. Anyone over 6ft will need to make the same changes. If I was to do it again – I could probably do it in 10 to 15 hours.
Once the hardware is all together you need to ensure all electrics are connected correctly (actually very easy) just make sure your 120v/ 240v power feed goes to the correct “L” for Live and “N” for Negative terminals in the power adaptor all other connections are logical – just need clearer images in the manual. You then need to go the Frex web site and download the latest firmware (if required) and latest software drivers specifically developed for each sim. This process was not very clear and Frex need to make improvements to the manual and web site to show exactly step by step what you need to do. All in all connecting the electrics and downloading the software takes about 1 hour.
So before powering up – I went around the whole rig to ensure the seat and seat frame move freely without hitting something else – that there is no snagging or clashing of any components and a double check that all bolts are tightened enough.
Starting Up
Once you have downloaded the SimconBase software an Icon appears on your desk top. The first time you simply click on this and a smaller icon will appear on the bottom tool bar. Click on this and you have some very simple, easy to follow screens from which you can choose four pre- configured settings from a drop down menu. These are called High G, Vibe Cut, Threshold and Custom. Threshold is the full fat, singing and dancing configuration providing all vibration and G movement parameters at all road speeds. The other two focus on G and the amount of Vibration whilst Custom allows you to pre-configure your own settings.
All settings are changed via easy to use slide bars. “Custom” if very useful as you can tweak every parameter to accurately reflect the type of car you’re driving, taking into account road surface and the character of the car. All of these settings are taking data from the Sim. So a Mini in GTL will clearly be generating less cornering force than a F3 car in rFactor. The software appropriately accounts for this, generating the G and Vibration parameter limits to each car within your pre-defined configuration.
All settings are effectively controlled by two main areas on the left and right side of the screen. The left side controls how much vertical and horizontal limits you wish to set. So how much the seat tilts side ways and how much it tilts forwards and backwards (pitch and yaw). I have only set these to a maximum of 7500 which is plenty – you can go as high as 11,000 I think !!!! Remember the seat will only move as much as the data limit from the sim allows – so you will not reach your pitch and yaw limit with the acceleration and brakes from an older, less powered car. The right side of the screen controls the degree of vibration generated and at what speed. The other slide bar is “Neutral” this being the angle (pitch and yaw) when you are stationary. So at first you may find yourself being thrown through the (virtual) windscreen when you hit the brakes – so just slide this bar back a little and the neutral setting will be adjusted immediately so now as you hit the brake pedal an appropriate amount of movement will be generated moving your body forward.
H Shifter and Shifter +
The build quality on both is top notch. As with the simconmotion, they are excellent pieces of engineering – beyond my already high anticipated expectation. You use the H shift for games like GTL or Carrera Cup in rFactor and the Shifter + for straight cut racing boxes like those found in GTR. Really, these devices are built to last and provide a feel that is a close as you are going to get to a real gearbox without spending silly money. I have cancelled “auto clutch” within game settings and therefore operate both via the new ECCI 6000 clutch pedal. More on this later
DFP Wheel Adaptor Kit
I purchased the pre assembled kit which means Frex take a DFP and do all the wiring/ button changes. You then get a beautifully made, pre-assembled piece of hardware with the gear shift removed and a cable in its place ready to connect to the Shifter + through the supplied connector. Lots of authentic looking buttons and carbon effect. All you do is choose your wheel. I opted for a Sparco, round 285 mm. Feels fantastic – a better size than the standard DFP and much closer to the real thing. You need to provide your own 24v DFP power adaptor as the supplied one of for the Japanese market.
I have reduced Force feedback settings to 17 to 20% as I no longer need the artificial sense of what the car is doing through the wheel, I’m hoping to get that through the seat of my pants – I just want a little bit of weight through the wheel in line with the type of car.
On the Track
Power on, everything configured in the simcon menus, harness on, room lights down. Select GTL and the Lotus Elan (right hand drive version of course) at Imola. Start the engine, dip the clutch, select first gear with a nice metallic feel as you move the H shift into the appropriate gate. Lift the clutch gently to find the right biting point and the simcon moves just at the right time.
Start to pull away and the system tilts backwards as you hit the gas then gently moves back towards the neutral point (you don’t notice this) as the G force decreases, 2nd, 3rd then fourth gear – all feel fantastic – each gear selection, clutch dip and re-engage perfectly – I mean perfectly matched with an exact amount of movement from the seat. This is unreal. I start to approach the first corner, the Elan feels alive, I dab the brake put my arm down to my side where the gear shift is positioned, dip the clutch, engage 2nd gear, lift the clutch and …….. I’m off into the kitty litter. Oh my god – the rear diff has locked - I need to heel and toe…. Mental!!!!!! I am thrown all over the place as the car spins in the gravel. I dip the clutch engage 1st again and apply just the right amount of revs to the biting point to get out of the gravel cleanly. I’m on my way again. Each movement, slide, forward and backwards, left to right, perfectly matched by this simulator. Each bump in the road, each corner curb is felt at whatever speed your doing. I actually spend a few minutes driving on and off the tarmac onto the curbs and grass, you can feel left to right as the road moves across underneath you – stunning !!
Five laps later and I’m starting to get the hang of the old school way of driving – this is the most rewarding element of using a H shift box, blip the throttle as you lift the clutch on the down change and the rear diff will not lock – you get perfect engine braking, matched by the movement from the simcon. If you lock your wheel through over ambitious braking into a slide, the vibration within the seat stops, the seat moves in line with the slide of the car – you can really judge exactly how close to the edge you are pushing things. Lose traction under hard acceleration and the seat will move left and right – opposite to those inputs of the wheel as the back of the car scrabbles for grip. Within 10 laps I am in heaven.
Prior to having this set up I didn’t drive the Lotus too much but now all the pieces come together to form one. Put simply, the talents that create sims like GTR, GTL, rFactor should be congratulated for building in so much data that simply will never be realised by most pieces of hardware. Having just a force feedback wheel means you have to imagine whats going on beneath you. With the simcon – you really feel it.
I next move onto the perfectly realised Spa in GTR and choose the Lister (RHD again). This time I have configured the gearbox to run through the Shifter + to match that of the straight cut boxes used in the GT cars. This time I will be lifting the throttle slightly and not using the clutch on the up change but will be using heel and toe and the clutch on the down shift. I adjust the pitch/ yaw and horizontal parameters within the simcon menu.
Engine starts , I select first gear and lift the clutch , sh*t, I haven’t given it enough revs and the engine stalls. Already, I am into a whole new dimension with this sim – frustrating but reality.
I pull away , into 2nd at low speed and the car judders – it does not like low speed and the simcon reflects this perfectly. I get onto the straight and start to put my foot down, I bang up through the gears but at first forget to lift the accelerator (as I’m used to doing with the old DFP set up) the simcon moves violently with each shift – a slight lift of the throttle smoothes things out. As I approach the first corner at full speed I hit the brakes hard, I am thrown forward (now I know why you need the harnesses) I bang down through the gears, using the brake and blipping the throttle at the same time, the simcon moves very hard and quickly to the left, vibrations resonate from below as I clip the curb, I turn towards the next corner, the simulator matching my inputs and throws me in the other direction- the back of the car slides slightly, I feel it quickly enough to catch it but I apply a little too much opposite lock, the sim moves in the other direction as I fish-tail up the track (need to adjust the diff settings and rear anti roll bar a bit). I am now onto some of the fastest corners. I own a Radical SR3 in real life and have driven Spa twice in it, these are quite simply some of the best corners anywhere on any track – as you dive down the hill and set the car up for the double left hander apex of ********* (the name escapes me), I would go from 5th into 3rd, lift the throttle slightly for the first apex then bang the throttle home hard and you commit for the second relying on the cars down force to keep you on track. With this sim, you are approaching the same sensations , bang, bang down the box, feel the car actually settle itself at the first apex, then gradually feel the force push your body sideways as you pull through the second – stunning!!!!
What really impresses about this simulator is not only the accuracy of what it represents – which when you are driving at full speed, full commitment, is surreal but it’s the way in which it does it. The overall package is superbly realised, very well engineered and really feels it will last – though of course time will tell.
Conclusions and Recommendations
So, how real is real. Well a couple of my friends have driven the same cars at the same tracks in the simcon. After probably 30 minutes of getting their heads around everything (mainly heel and toe with the H shifter) they were totally blown away and were able to put in some pretty decent laps. However, another friend who is one of those guys who has never been very good at driving in real life and has never been able to drive on any game I’ve ever owned was pretty useless. He managed a couple of laps over an hour or so without going off. But I think this is a mind over matter thing – some people just can’t get the fact that they are not actually in a real car.
So, am I any faster using Frex SimConMotion. Well for the first 10 hours of play – certainly not. At Spa I would probably be 5 to 8 seconds slower per lap but hey what laps!!!! However, I am now able to pick my turn in points far more precisely than before, I can feel exactly how much brake pressure to apply and I respect the car in which I’m driving far more than before. Much more like real life. Yesterday I got my fastest time at Spa in my current favourite car - the Lister - a 2 min 16. I’m sure with more time in the right car and right settings F 550 etc I can get a few more seconds off this.
At Imola I have bettered my fastest time at Imola by getting a 2 min 6 seconds in the Capri BUT you know what – it really isn’t all about the time anymore – it really is about the reality this system creates.
It will cost you above £1000 and towards £2000GBP (inc shipping) if you want to add the Frex DFP wheel, H shifter, Shifter + etc . Is it worth it? Well running cars on tracks as you may know is not cheap but for what this system delivers and how it delivers it – is it worth – yeah hell it is.
I am sure Frex are constantly seeking ways in which they can improve their products. Here are a few suggestions……….
When driving at low speed, there is a lot of vibration – this is realistic to a degree but possibly a little too harsh. It feels a bit like the Radical SR3 configuration with the engine being bolted directly to the chassis i.e. a lot of vibration but a little harder. Maybe Frex could look at creating some rubber bushes that sit between the seat bolt points at the base and back rest. These bushes would be designed to take away some of the harsh vibration frequencies but would not detract from the sensation, movement at higher speeds?
It would be nice if changes could be made to the design of the chassis to allow for the front section to slide forward independent of the rear section. This would allow for the wheel and pedals to be moved backwards and forwards easily when changing driver. Currently for shorter drivers I have to stick a pillow behind their back and un bolt the pedal position forward?
Provide an ordering option for taller people – this would only require one new part number for the two diagonal frame pieces at the front of the cockpit being slightly longer and having an angled cut at both ends. See my pictures for more detail.
It would be good within the simbase software to have parameters that will automatically allocate themselves to a particular sim. i.e. Threshold to GTR and Custom to GTL or even better have a save function to allow settings to be saved to a particular car i.e. softer vibration for a Lotus in GTL and harder for the Capri.
Jon B (Jonn Boy)
why did i even read of all that, now i want to get one and i'll never have enough spare cash..................or room 
that is very true. Word of mouth works very well indeed.
Nice one birder, spread the word :up:
edit: I just read this part, where you were (allegedly
) eavesdropping on James May:
"hammy, i am at Elvington, a bloke down here as got a simulator that you can go fast in without moving, you should get down here.", "I am sure he can move the seat closer so you can reach."," No, that would be no good, Jed's lardy arse would never fit in the seat","Yes i will thank the Air Ambulance for you"
Brilliant
edit: I just read this part, where you were (allegedly
) eavesdropping on James May:"hammy, i am at Elvington, a bloke down here as got a simulator that you can go fast in without moving, you should get down here.", "I am sure he can move the seat closer so you can reach."," No, that would be no good, Jed's lardy arse would never fit in the seat","Yes i will thank the Air Ambulance for you"
Brilliant
(Tigershark)
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by Tigershark
Well done
/me wonders if any of those who tryed out are here now reading this..
/me wonders if any of those who tryed out are here now reading this..
So would I!
Hey, nice one Birder! It's very cool that you did all that to promote LFS and it's nice to know that LFS is a good replacement to track days for you.. 
It's very cool that you did all that to promote LFS and it's nice to know that LFS is a good replacement to track days for you.. Great stuff!
Me too!
Great report Birder, particulary with the Captain Slow moment . I'd love to meet him one day, along with Hamster and Clarkson.
It wouldn't suprise me, if Top Gear actually did a video report in comparison on LFS and reality. Like how they did GT4 and the Leguna Seca curcuit.
. I'd love to meet him one day, along with Hamster and Clarkson.It wouldn't suprise me, if Top Gear actually did a video report in comparison on LFS and reality. Like how they did GT4 and the Leguna Seca curcuit.
How would they do that as the tracks and the cars are not available to test IRL
But some promotion is always nice of course.Great report Brider
It was great to be involved in the days. I was there all day friday too. TBH, I was on days today and yesterday and it was nice to get back to work to relax lol, even though my car broke down on the way back on friday night.
Still so glad I was involved in the days, I really enjoyed it.
Chris[ENG]
P.S Good to meet you too
It was great to be involved in the days. I was there all day friday too. TBH, I was on days today and yesterday and it was nice to get back to work to relax lol, even though my car broke down on the way back on friday night.
Still so glad I was involved in the days, I really enjoyed it.
Chris[ENG]
P.S Good to meet you too
An Raceabout and/or a McGill MRT5 and an autocross layout.
OK call Jeremy
who dares to admit having Jeremy's PRIVATE phone number?
BUSINESS number should do fine ....
Cool
Maybe he has played LFS too after
If he has i hope he liked it or els LFS will be insulted verry hard by all TopGear fans 
Maybe he has played LFS too after
If he has i hope he liked it or els LFS will be insulted verry hard by all TopGear fans 1
2
Guy Smith on LFS
(49 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG