has it occured to you that the problem might be you being a lot less smooth in real life rather than the sims physics ?
has it occured to you that the problem might be you being a lot less smooth in real life rather than the sims physics ?
The more I drive my Reynard in real life (5th on the grid at the weekend) the more I realise just how good LFSs physics are, both on and over the limit. The worst scenarios are when we're tootling along at walking speeds, when the tyres do seem to go a bit squiffy at times.
Why can't you imagine it?
Creating a sim isn't about creating the illusion or subjective "feeling" of driving, but rather about creating a model that mathematically behaves as close as possible to the real world. You'll always have to exaggerate certain behaviours to compensate for the lack of sensory input if you want the "feeling" to be intuitively comparable to a real life experience. This is NOT the right way to do it - it's a compromise.
Flight simming is the best example, you can feel, IRL, if your vertical speed changes in the very slightest. It feels violent and dreadfully obvious. I don't accuse the sim of being inaccurate because "vertical speed changes should feel more violent, trust me I've been in a plane lots of times! I can wander 100 feet and not notice in FSX, something is wrong!".
Seek out the encyclopedic posts by Todd Wasson (jtw604302993942094) for a detailed analysis on slip curves if you want to understand exactly why this type of behaviour is not fundamentally incorrect. Once again, I will not contend that LFS is perfect in this regard, but I will contend that it's much closer to reality than anything else on the market at this point.
It's not that hard with full wheel rotation, trust me
And even at 720deg, that's still significantly less than most road cars anyway.
I agree, putting people in front of a G25 with full 900° rotation usually shuts them up about impossible to spin cars in LFS 
My apologies for another newbie question, but do these adjustments only work if you drive with a fixed view forward? In other words, as I use TIR3Pro that allows me to look wherever I want, would these adjustments you list still be relevant or have any effect?
Sorry,with my bad english its hard to explain it well.
With limit, i mean the moment who s the car begins to loose the grip.
After the limit for me,you are no more competitive because you are asking to much from the tyres and they can t do it without loosing grip.
Hope it was explained a bit better.
Exactly what i mean with my post,it s a wrong statement to think the car will always react linear and gently after the "grip limit
"Actually,i m way smoother IRL because you need it to stay alive at fast speeds.The reality is more violent if you don t drive perfectly smooth and precise,the same could be tell for drifting a car.
Sad, i can t talk really well english because most of you have really good points about the subject and it would be nice to talk about it without the feel to not understand all.
for about the 1000th time in this theatre ... tyres DONT lose grip when youre sideways
Aheeemmmm,maybe you could explain then why you are going sydeways if you don t loose grip.Sorry but you made such a crazy statement that i wonder if it s yours.I m pretty sure it s not.Maybe it isn t the appropriate term but then most of the race drivers and race instructors are wrong.
i was car mechanic and we all said it an learned it like this.
The point is, that (as far as I know) tyres practically don't lose any lateral grip when going over the "limit". All the violence which is seemingly missing in LFS is in real life conveyed by the G forces acting on you. You can detect even the smallest changes in all these forces (lateral, longitudinal and rotational) when sitting in a real car, but there is no notable change at what happens from a purely visual standpoint. LFS can only show you visual changes, thus a lot of the felt violence is lost and it feels like LFS cars start sliding too easily. I don't claim LFS tyre physics are perfect - for example the longitudinal grip has quite obvious issues - but I think they are a lot closer to reality than some people suggest.
your grip drops off ie you wont get more grip by increasing the speed anymore which is what many describe as losing grip
truth is however you dont lose grip and your car will resist the rotation jsut as much as it did before you "lost" grip
well from my understanding a lot of the violence comes from the initial corner stiffness of the tyres and how quicly they level off laterally
iirc the measurements you did showed that with the usual tyre pressures people run in lfs the peak is somewhere at ~12° which from my understanding is rather far out for low profile tyres as you find on most of lfses cars and the transit phase is also relatively soft
But the car only resist the rotation because of the drivers (counter) steering in such a case not because they have the same sort of grip.
Sorry if i don t understand well your point but i tried and thinks it s a bit "wrong" after all what i learned about the subject in school (long time ago and maybe they discovered new stuff).If it s really like you said,then all the old things about this was wrong??
Perhaps he just forgot the word "much".
And he's right, tires do not lose MUCH grip due to lateral slip (moving sideways)
You know; the whole lat/long slip combination issue and the excess long grip could really have an effect on what people are pointing out.
edit: woops, that's what happens when you take a phone call before hitting the "submit" button
And he's right, tires do not lose MUCH grip due to lateral slip (moving sideways)
You know; the whole lat/long slip combination issue and the excess long grip could really have an effect on what people are pointing out.
edit: woops, that's what happens when you take a phone call before hitting the "submit" button
Don't have a Track IR myself so I can't help, but it should be easy enough to tell. Make a note of the current settings, then turn them all the way up. You will definitely notice if they have an effect (the view point will probably attempt to leave the cockpit in certain cars
). All my settings do is reduce the bumping effect a bit and remove the lateral shift completely.If your first paragraph was true, then steering wouldn't do anything to correct the car anyway
(Just like when I play GTR2! Whee!)And yes, the "old stuff" is wrong - it's a myth that just won't die.
True, drifting is probably going to get more slippy when excessive tyre spinning provides less longitudinal grip, however I'm not too sure on mathematics of long/lat force combining, so I won't give any definite statements on what it will affect (other than off the line starts, obviously).
Anyhow, Ghostracer you should really research tyre grip curves again and especially look for some posts made by Todd Wasson (jtw62074). I think he even posted some very insightful thoughts on the RSC forums - I believe it was in the "The rFactor drifting issue" thread. Apparently many old and even newer racing books contain totally made up grip curves, probably because it's very hard to get access to real high slip angle testing data, and I wouldn't be surprised if what you learned back in school might have been based on these books. Writing something in a book doesn't make it fact (fortunately).
Anyhow, Ghostracer you should really research tyre grip curves again and especially look for some posts made by Todd Wasson (jtw62074). I think he even posted some very insightful thoughts on the RSC forums - I believe it was in the "The rFactor drifting issue" thread. Apparently many old and even newer racing books contain totally made up grip curves, probably because it's very hard to get access to real high slip angle testing data, and I wouldn't be surprised if what you learned back in school might have been based on these books. Writing something in a book doesn't make it fact (fortunately).
Holy crap that thread moved fast 
Looking back at the screenshots, they actually peak at about 7°, though it depends on air pressure. Wait, let's look at some extreme values from my test data... R2 at 80kPa seem to peak at a good 11°, while at 240kPa they already have max grip at 6°. The smoothness of the transition is also noticeably influenced by this.
(Test data was acquired with patch U)
Here's also a little gif showing the differences:
Looking back at the screenshots, they actually peak at about 7°, though it depends on air pressure. Wait, let's look at some extreme values from my test data... R2 at 80kPa seem to peak at a good 11°, while at 240kPa they already have max grip at 6°. The smoothness of the transition is also noticeably influenced by this.
(Test data was acquired with patch U)
Here's also a little gif showing the differences:
Steering works actually because you are not at the point who you don t have anymore grip at the rear tyres,You just loose the complet grip if you are really to fast.I never said the grip is over instantly but it s not a linear feeling.
I m trying to change my mind about it but i need facts or a few links about the subject to help me to believe.
Most of todd wasson posts are really interesting but what he said doen t sound like shotglass interpretation about grip.But i only was a simple mechanic and i wouldn t be surprised if shotglass or BBT are cars enginneer since the posts they made about that are very detailled and smart.
Would be nice to now what is Scawen view about this.
no it resists the rotation all on its own
in fact if tyres lost grip like you say countersteering would initially increase the rotational speed
thanks for the gif thats exactly what i meant
i think we can agree on that most drivers use stupidly underinflated tyres in lfs
with your measurments its clear that these tyres have a very smooth and late transition into the flat area which will make them very smooth and unsnappy at the limit
from my experience in real cars this is correct and true to life what isnt however is that tyres stay on the rim with these kind of pressures
The best explanation about this was Todd's post on RSC (I think), the one influenced by Miller Light
He only divulges a handful of his knowledge about this stuff because it's top secret for some reason... Perhaps it's because it's proprietary research, I don't know why he's so secretive about it but he is.
If we ask nicely, he might show up to straighten us all up again - but I wouldn't blame him if he didn't since he's done it 100 times, and his fingers must have callouses from those posts We're about due for a Toddism around here though.
Nonetheless, it is not that complex - at least the end result isn't hard to understand; I'm sure the intracacies do get fearfully hairy. Just remember, a tire NEEDS to slip to produce grip. The more slip, the more grip - up to a peak. There is no actual measured data on the planet that shows a rapid dropoff after peak lateral grip, and people are lately discovering that it's just not the case. Even the "gurus" behind GTR2 were "surprized to see how forgiving they are" when given opportunty to view some data they previously did not have access to.
He only divulges a handful of his knowledge about this stuff because it's top secret for some reason... Perhaps it's because it's proprietary research, I don't know why he's so secretive about it but he is.
If we ask nicely, he might show up to straighten us all up again - but I wouldn't blame him if he didn't since he's done it 100 times, and his fingers must have callouses from those posts
We're about due for a Toddism around here though.Nonetheless, it is not that complex - at least the end result isn't hard to understand; I'm sure the intracacies do get fearfully hairy. Just remember, a tire NEEDS to slip to produce grip. The more slip, the more grip - up to a peak. There is no actual measured data on the planet that shows a rapid dropoff after peak lateral grip, and people are lately discovering that it's just not the case. Even the "gurus" behind GTR2 were "surprized to see how forgiving they are" when given opportunty to view some data they previously did not have access to.
I challenge anyone to run home and put their tyres at 20lbs, and see just how "icy" it feels.
I had a slow leak in my left rear tire lately, so I would get down to 18-20lbs over a week. With just that one tire in that state, my car feels totally different. Dull, wallowy and unresponsive.
and yet they still decided to put 0 dependency on yaw into the aero engine and make up for it by using tyre curves that drop into nothingness past peak
and here boys and girls is the reason why im actually hoping that todd wont show up this time
The metric system is the tool of the devil! My car gets forty rods to the hogshead, and that's the way I likes it!
IRL you can feel how much accelerator you push and in game you have to learn it as there is missing such feedback completely, surely there has not been perfect simulation yet, but I think that LFS is doing quite well.
IRL I can feel in my car how much grip I have left that I can use to accelerate, that is something I have difficulties to feel in sim or modern FWD cars IRL
I don't know if even some motion simulators can help with that, also those do cost quite lot of money.
However most discomfort I'm getting is because of limited feedback from game, I can't see too well from my monitor, wheel force effects are delayed and not same I feel IRL, also all acceleration feeling is missing and let's think about pedals, those don't provide any similar feedback as what I get from my car, of course steering wheel can be issue too if that turns too little so all movements you do are enlarged quite a much.
LFS does get closest to correct feeling, so that is I prefer when I sim.
Oh and you few need really to adopt to metric system, my convert.exe is overheating as those numbers you tell are not giving any information to me (Like it would be any different from your side of table )
IRL I can feel in my car how much grip I have left that I can use to accelerate, that is something I have difficulties to feel in sim or modern FWD cars IRL
I don't know if even some motion simulators can help with that, also those do cost quite lot of money.
However most discomfort I'm getting is because of limited feedback from game, I can't see too well from my monitor, wheel force effects are delayed and not same I feel IRL, also all acceleration feeling is missing and let's think about pedals, those don't provide any similar feedback as what I get from my car, of course steering wheel can be issue too if that turns too little so all movements you do are enlarged quite a much.
LFS does get closest to correct feeling, so that is I prefer when I sim.
Oh and you few need really to adopt to metric system, my convert.exe is overheating as those numbers you tell are not giving any information to me
(Like it would be any different from your side of table )Indeed, even when RL data shows a slight increase in downforce with mild yaw, followed of course by the drastic decrease afterwards. Hmm, maybe they got the aero curves and the tire curves confused?
Actually I use a hodgepodge of units - I'm kind of a measurement slut I guess... probably explains my HP / Torque confusion!
I use C for temp most of the time, lbs for pressure (what the hell is a bar? A bar of what? gold?), lbs for weight, KM/H for speed, feet for altitude, kilometers for distance ... Strange how one develops a "feel" for certain units over time. If someone tells me that they benchpress 136kg, I think "So? What on Earth does that mean?", but if they say they can benchpress 300lbs... Then I'm impressed
seriously ? never heard of that
what the hell is an lbs of pressure ? per what ?
id ask them where they found the 3 kg plates
Realistic roadholding? Not for me . . .
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