^^ If you want a non-endurance endurance race maybe you should try looking at GT or Forza, LFS is meant to be a simulation of reality, that is what separates it from other computer games end of story.

im speaking of le mans ... the real one and it has happened in the past

Woz, tyhats not true, cars ARE helped out of the gravel by either marshalls or toe trucks, FACT. I've seen it. The only time a car isn't helped back out is if the car is either busted tono repair or on it's roof or cannot make it back under it's own power. Cars spin off into the gravel and are then pulled back out under safety car periods i'm pretty certain.

Quote from R.Kolz :

Nice move of you to just ignore some argumentation and facts.

It´s still a game, supposed to be fun. Right? Can you agree on this one?

Tell me pls: How much fun do you and your teammates are going to have, whenever you end on the roof after let´s say after 10 hours at an endurance race and this wasn´t at all your or one of your teammates fault?

IRL you might say: " Good thing he´s still alive.". In LFS all I´d have to say would be "F*** what an a***** ". Pls. remember, this is still a game where people are interested in finishing a race.

And pls. don´t call for your "mayby friends" and ask them to close a thread as this still is good communication - exchanging different opinions. No harm done.

I all forms of racing people DO NOT FINISH and of the people that do not finish some have their races ended by others. One of the latest V8 races here had the top 5 people in the season taken out on T1 by a noob to the series. They did not reset and continue. Its all part of racing.

The added risk of a crash finishing your race is what makes people TAKE CARE instead of just playing bumper cars. If you endurance races are like bumper cars so you need a reset button then you should find a different league?

Just a thought.

And yes. LFS is FUN even with no reset! At least for me and it sounds like many other as well.

sprint racing is different to endu racing, your car can be fixed...

Quote from BenjiMC :

sprint racing is different to endu racing, your car can be fixed...

Correct. But Bathurst is a 7+ hours race so I guess that is Enduro and I can't remember a single car ever being helped back onto track, rolled back over or repaired at the track side and you see BIG crashes on that track.

Crash = DNF

Yes damaged cars have limped back to the pits where it is patched up and repaired but never on the track. I doubt safety rules would allow TBH. You would need full course yellow if you had a car on the track side and pit crew working on it in an exposed area.

Has anyone got a real documented example of a REAL track side repair that was required to allow a car to move so it could limp back to the pits for real repair?

a quick one ive found
http://209.85.135.104/search?q ... cd=1&client=firefox-a

until a few years ago (the rules probably have changed thanks to fia who like destroying everything thats great about le mans) drivers were allowed to repair their cars as long as they didnt get help from anyone else
apparently the marshals didnt mind too much when the parts the driver needed appeared out of thin air as long as the car was out of the competition anyway

^^ I don't think a stone is a standard BMW Motorsport part so you can't really say that whipping the bonnet open and shoving a stone (precision engineered in Munich I'm sure) in to hold the throttle open is exactly a major repair. Given the fact the car obviously broke down rather than crashed out one would assume it had pulled safely off the track and the driver made sure he didn't get pushed by marshals to avoid getting disqualified. Anyone want to post an example of a car getting repairs from significant accident damage trackside involving parts/tools that weren't located in the nearest gravel trap?

ART. 18 - REPAIRS & MAINTENANCE
18.1 - Repairs :
18.1.1 - During the race, apart from the areas in front of or in the pits and on the
starting grid, repairs must be carried out by the driver alone with the tools and
parts carried on board his car.

http://www.imsaracing.net/2006/competitors/2006ALMSRules.pdf

I'm not talking about track side repairs, i'm talking about fishing your car out the gravel. Hence why i said give a stop-go which would be equivalent to the damage repair time in the pits.

Edit: Also V8 Supercars is run as a season of sprint races with bathurst being a one off. In an endurance SEASON it's different to an endurance RACE.

Quote from BenjiMC :

I'm not talking about track side repairs, i'm talking about fishing your car out the gravel. Hence why i said give a stop-go which would be equivalent to the damage repair time in the pits.

Edit: Also V8 Supercars is run as a season of sprint races with bathurst being a one off. In an endurance SEASON it's different to an endurance RACE.

So the marshals come out and push people out of the kitty litter do they or get the lifting equipment out to help?

Do you have any examples of a car being stuck in the gravel and being helped out so it can finish a race?

There is NO difference between a normal season and an endurance season and no matter how you look at it Bathurst is an endurance race. You still get points at the end of race based on position and guess what in all cases some people do not always finish a race because of failures, crashes or getting car stuck. They do not get helped their race just ends for that race.

Racing is NOT about speed it is about who COMPLETES a race the fastest. They are actually VERY different things.

If you need to change your driving to complete a race then that is what is required to win, not adding a reset button.

If your race ends because of a crash then that is just bad luck everything else is YOUR mistake and DNF is the punishment. It is also a GOOD punishment no matter how long the race has run.

@Benji: to be perfectly accurate there are 3 enduros in the V8 Supercar season (including the Bathurst 1000). First round of the season is the Clipsal 500 in Adelaide, the other is the Sandown 500 (about Round 9).

I'm pretty sure I've seen v8sc cars being pulled out of the trap to continue the race, this season. Sadly I don't have them to replay and verify, but I think it was in the wet. Must have been in race one, or I don't see any reason to continue a lap or two behind.
I also vaguely remember it from recent Grand Am races.

Disclamier: sometimes my brain lies to me in very convincing ways.

Isn't Adelaide actually a 2 part race though?

-1 for back to the old removed reset

maybe should be included a possibility to flip a car, but only a real flip at the same place where the car at roof. Please not a unrealistic flip to the track. And if somebody flip hes car he should get a stop and go penalty, thats a good idea.

Reset is better how it is now, and servers that don't allow reset are better than those that do. If you crash, game over. If you want to "test your limits" without regard for consequence, do it offline where you aren't going to screw up someone elses race with your reckless driving. Resetting is for little girls driving their Barbie PowerWheels.

Quote from Dumpy :

Reset is better how it is now, and servers that don't allow reset are better than those that do. If you crash, game over. If you want to "test your limits" without regard for consequence, do it offline where you aren't going to screw up someone elses race with your reckless driving. Resetting is for little girls driving their Barbie PowerWheels.

Probably right. I'd still like the option as server admin to have my server slap those little girls with a stop n go penalty.

I would propose server side scripts. Have the server recognize the following: reset, off course, cause yellow flag, contact, contact front of car to rear of car only, jump start. These could all be per sector or per lap incidents. Makes no difference to me. I know STCC tracks per sector yellows.

Allow the server admin to apply any of the standard penalties to automatically to any of those triggers.

I would also propose to add in the following command: /p_sg <time in seconds 0-XXX> USERNAME

Watching different races I noticed that the time drivers are held for thier stop and go penalties varies from just a coming to a full stop and then going immediately to stopping for over a minute depending on series and what the penalty was for. For example AMLS holds cars in the pits for an additional 30 secs if pit crew has thier visor up. Speed GT series is just come to a stop and go immediately for "avoidable contact".

Did anybody watch F1 today? LH was in the gravel and got put back on track...

I actually like this idea.

Quote from BenjiMC :

Did anybody watch F1 today? LH was in the gravel and got put back on track...

If you stall it in the gravel it's game over, but Hammo managed to keep his engine running so was allowed back on track. He was damn lucky not to be hit by 3 or 4 other hydrofoils while he was sitting there

ever stalled in LFS? didn't think so. So why isn't it allowed to put the car back on track? it's not like it doesn't happen IRL now is it?

Quote from Woz :

A much better solution would be to include a DNF count for each player as part of the stats.

This would make people WANT to finish so they don't get yet another DNF . They might take a bit more care on the track instead of crashing and reaching for the "crutch" that is the reset button.

If you are still learning and need reset then play on a server that has full reset enabled. If you need to reset you probably need to get rid of the damage as well.

It is not that hard to complete a race. The real problem, as I see it, is that that people think they can push at 100% pace all the time and IRL that is just not the case. You should only drive as fast as the situation, tyres and conditions allow.

People need to look ahead as situations build on track and ease off when it looks like problems ahead that need to avoided.

Also if you push to hard and off this should teach you that you have pushed TOO hard so you should change your driving style and back off a little.

This sim is going to get harder and harder as more realistic option come in. In racing IRL people off and crash and get rammed off the track. This is part of racing so get used to it

Quote from Woz :

I all forms of racing people DO NOT FINISH and of the people that do not finish some have their races ended by others. One of the latest V8 races here had the top 5 people in the season taken out on T1 by a noob to the series. They did not reset and continue. Its all part of racing.

The added risk of a crash finishing your race is what makes people TAKE CARE instead of just playing bumper cars. If you endurance races are like bumper cars so you need a reset button then you should find a different league?

Just a thought.

And yes. LFS is FUN even with no reset! At least for me and it sounds like many other as well.

Quote from Woz :

So the marshals come out and push people out of the kitty litter do they or get the lifting equipment out to help?

Do you have any examples of a car being stuck in the gravel and being helped out so it can finish a race?

There is NO difference between a normal season and an endurance season and no matter how you look at it Bathurst is an endurance race. You still get points at the end of race based on position and guess what in all cases some people do not always finish a race because of failures, crashes or getting car stuck. They do not get helped their race just ends for that race.

Racing is NOT about speed it is about who COMPLETES a race the fastest. They are actually VERY different things.

If you need to change your driving to complete a race then that is what is required to win, not adding a reset button.

If your race ends because of a crash then that is just bad luck everything else is YOUR mistake and DNF is the punishment. It is also a GOOD punishment no matter how long the race has run.

My friend, you and I are on the same wavelength.

We talk of racing, the balance between fast and out of control. The fear of a mistake meaning you are done. The Compromise of all out speed and having control of your car. Not of glorified hot lapping with no fear of consequence or reprecussion.

Haha, Stu... you're on a tear.

It does stir the blood!

Quote from srdsprinter :

My friend, you and I are on the same wavelength.

We talk of racing, the balance between fast and out of control. The fear of a mistake meaning you are done. The Compromise of all out speed and having control of your car. Not of glorified hot lapping with no fear of consequence or reprecussion.

Yep. Too many people have come through from "games" and expect "game rules" to be in effect including the invisible barriers to stop you coming off the track in a car that does not take damage

--------------

On the subject of the recent F1 lift from the kitty litter. I was a little supprised on that one, sounds like many were.

Out of interest... How long after the car went off and got stuck was it before the lifting kit was in place, hooked up, the car moved and unhooked and was there a full course yellow during this?

If the "middle ground" is ever reinstated, which I hope it isn't, then something like a 5 minute penalty waiting for you car to be moved back to a SAFE place sounds good to me.

So from the moment you hit reset you are forced into a special spectate mode and have to wait 5 minutes before you can take control of your car again at which point it is put at a safe re-entry point.

5 minutes is NOT a long time IRL for what is being done and it is enough of a penalty to make people NOT want to reset.

People have said about needing for endurance race. Well if its a REAL endurance race then 5 mins is not a long time to loose.