Quote from Falkowski83 :

Dude, I won't even comment on this. They don't have the need to update your computer. But if you get a flawed hardware they have to trade it for a functional part, right?

Lol

Why not comment on it. My comment was based on your logic ... if you happened to read the LFS terms and conditions you would have realised you have no right to demand anything, just like I have no right to demand new hardware from Mesh. You've paid for LFS S2 and at the moment have a tester version in return untill S2 full is finished. It's just like pre ordering any other game. No game store will be able to throw a copy of the game your way if it hasn't arrived yet no matter how much you demand for it.

Keiran

Quote :

Also, about the End-User license agreement: that doesn't work as a regular contract. You do not sign that, and it works like a "click-wrap" contract. This is not considered a valid expression of will by the consumer, according to the Model Law on Eletronic Commerce of the UNCITRAL.

So, pro-lawyer, why is it you dont sue them then? Explain the jury, why you think you have a right to install alarm-clocks in scawen bedroom and force them to work even harder...ridiculous....illepall

I also paid my money for the license, and even if it was just for the alpha, I wouldn't have regretted buying it, when I think of the countless hours I spend with it....and I am not even a fanboy. I would have bought GTL, if i had a machine to handle that, I played GPL, I tried the F1C mods, and thats a nice change to have the Norschleife in a simulator. I'd really love to see that track in LFS, but buying that license does NOT give me the right to demand the devs to put it in or anything that i would wish to be in. As a customer, you have the right to choose products or to return them, if they are defective!!

I appreciate what they have already given to us, and what is coming is just something on top. I can fully understand the devs way to have their indi-project and not following the rat race...wished we had more people with some values and goals other than just ever more money.

So Scawen, Eric and Victor, burn your calendars, trash your alarm-clocks and take care of friends and your own mental and physical health, and I will patiently wait for patches, new releases, track addons and raylle packs, whenever you feel like throwing them out.

C'mon guys.... I never personally atacked anyone in my posts. Nevertheless, you are doing it against me. Why? Don't you agree that this might scare some more "open-minded" fans? Aren't you being too agressive without a reason?

Keiran, your logic was a deformation of my first tought. You used the example of getting an entire new product for the price you paid for one befor (getting a major upgrade on yout computer). That isn't the case and that wasn't nearly as close as what I meant. And I justified it in my subsequent post: using your example, you have the right to demand a new hardware if you receive a flawed one (ex.: you buy a GF 7800GT, and the cooler doesn't work. You are going to receive a new hardware, because it is your right to have a functional video card, you paid for it.) And using this same logic, the ill-advised consumer goes and buys the S2 license, but believes it is a FINISHED product (after all, that is how regular market works). He can argue that he was cheated, because he expected to get a finished product, and already paid for it. Now, please, note that I'm not saying he will do it or that he must do that. It is only the example, in wich you made a distorted assumption.

Ellis: please, go back and read everything I posted. I am not saying that is my personal opinion. Nor that I wasn't aware of how the game is developed. I just used EXAMPLES of what a regular consumer could believe. If Scawen wants to work 1 day per week, that is his problem, not mine, and I can't affect or change that. He will work the way he feels he will produce better, and I praise that.

I also appreciate their work and their idea. I have bought other simulators, and I play them. The only purpose of this thread was, like Soro said, make this as a thermometer to the developers about what is happening in the rest of the world. Sims are being made, and I guess we just would like to know how LFS is going to fight that. And we already had a direct answer from Scawen.

So, please, don't make assumptions based on a distorted view of what I said. Go back and read all my posts, I never made any afirmation stating that I am unhappy or whatever. I also mentioned my profession, just so people would know that end-user license agreements don't mean a lot when considering the major laws that rule e-commerce.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Tristan says he has. Although I think in reality Tristan has made a contribution to the data transfer bill for the forums

Hehehe.

Anyway, enough of this thread, we're keeping Scawen from researching physics. No more distractions!

Look, I can vaguely see your point, but if someone can't friggin READ and COMPREHEND that S2 Alpha is not a finished product, then they sure deserve to feel ripped off.

Consumer protection is good and all, especially against fraud companies who send out "you win the prize! give us money" coupons, etc. But the best example of how NOT to do it is the US where sueing the sh¡t out of companies, because the customers are too dumb, is common practise. So they have to put warning lables for every goddamned thing so if another dumbass screwed up they can say "look, we pointed out how not to do it, it's your fault". Gladly the courts over here in Europe have more common sense and don't let such crap go through. I'm drifting abit off here, am I?

Anyways, I don't know where this Brazilian conspiracy theory originated but consider this: you may actually be wrong. I seriously don't see any death signals that need immediate fixing via some obscure marketing strategies that simply aren't in the devs mind. Also, I don't know if this is a language thing, but you seem to constantly overread Scawen's posts or their meaning and then proceed to post the same nonsense all over again. Please stop that. It gets old. Quickly.

Thank you.

Quote from A few people here :

Already paid for S3

What? Who? Where?

Quote from Falkowski83 :

Basically, we are thousands of beta testers who already paid for a product we don't know if we are going to receive.

I kinda agree with him here... I have nothing against how they release their patches and I'm pretty happy how things are progressing. As LFS is and has basically always been in developing state people maybe expect the updates too eagerly. After all we get good updates and LFS itself is very stable and reliable system. But I still find it a bit strange that I have paid money for a product and I have no information what it (S2) will eventually include.

All I know about the S2 full is that Scawen is going to look at the "aero bug" and tire physics. That is enough for me about those, but it would be nice to know some other things they might be thinking. Like are these thought to be included in S2 full (not that are they going to be there, not if and when they will be there but just if the devs are thinking that these should be there, but not sure. Something that tells me that they are going to give it a glance. Or even something that tells me that the aero fix isn't going to be the only one thing fixed before S2 full):
1* race starts with false starts
2* engine damage
3* obligatory must-fix damage when in pit
4* will there be better in-car textures

Like the "4* option have been discussed but there are other priorities to be taken care of first" being said.

Basically this is all what has been said about S2:

Quote from @www.liveforspeed.net :

Now that we have a solid, improved version, physics is next on the list for development.

And I am not going to even ask about the rally pack

Quote from Falkowski83 :

I am not saying that is my personal opinion. Nor that I wasn't aware of how the game is developed. I just used EXAMPLES of what a regular consumer could believe.

But it seems to me you are now pretty alone in this "regular consumer" opinion.

Well, I see that some users here really get angry when someone points a flaw on LFS.


I hope that the devs don't take things on this way. Everyone should be opened for other ppl comments. I'm not talking about who wants NOS on LFS or some other ridiculous stuff, but we have to recognize that LFS has still some flaws.

Ok that those flaws don't prevent making LFS one of the best simulators out there, and we now that the devs WILL solve some of them (under S2 scope at least) because they've a enough background that make us to trust them, but we can't be blind about problems, nor flame who points a flaw on LFS.


There are several hardcore LFS fans here (I am a LFS fan, although not hardcore, but it's the only racing simulator that I have on my computer since I downloaded S1a demo), that have maybe a too strong atitude supporting LFS, but those shouldn't make ppl that wants to contribute someway and wants a better product go away from the forum, or else, the devs will only have feedback from the hardcore fans, and this kind of feedback is dangerous IMO.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Anyways, I don't know where this Brazilian conspiracy theory originated but consider this: you may actually be wrong. I seriously don't see any death signals that need immediate fixing via some obscure marketing strategies that simply aren't in the devs mind. Also, I don't know if this is a language thing, but you seem to constantly overread Scawen's posts or their meaning and then proceed to post the same nonsense all over again. Please stop that. It gets old. Quickly.

Yes. I never said I was the owner of the truth (wich I am not). Nor a fortune teller. I know I may be wrong. And so all of you also may be wrong.

Well, you know that our mother language is portuguese. Personally, I'm fluent in English, as some of my friends that posted here. We are putting the ideas over and over because there are people (not Scawen) who just seem to distort our initial ideas and put things in our mouths that we didn't say. Understanding what we mean seems to be a really difficult thing to some members of this message board, and I believe that I was cristal clear in every post I made.

But well, I'll stop this here. I won't post in this thread anymore, as it is leading nowhere.

If you want to keep this thread open, OK. But if you close it, it won't matter either. I just wish the devs work in the pace they feel like, so we can have a finished product sooner rather than later.

Peace.

Actually, yes, your posts were probably the most understandable.

But. First, we don't get mad at someone pointing out flaws. We get mad at someone pointing out flaws for the 48092th time. Flaws that have been discussed to death. This is directed at the obligatory "physics are flawed" statements.

Second, we get mad at made-up flaws. Like "the market is getting tight". If you want to make a point, prove it. To prove something doesn't mean "because I think so" or "because I am a XYZ". Get some facts together and point them out, then you have a valid statement.

Third, a thread is pretty much doomed when the first post is made in a kinda rude and offending way, which may have been because of language discrepancies, but nevertheless, personally I still think the first post was and is kinda bold.

The third and last point is probably the reason for the general reaction in this thread. Next time you want to discuss something like this, get factual backup and you may have a "chance". Trying to prove something by posting it over and over again won't earn you any love, or open ears for that matter.

it would nice if people would stop trying to converse with scawen directly, i think he really has other things he would rather be getting on with.

so leave the devs alone, they havent dissapointed anyone so far!

And I see people getting all fed up because of a flaw in LFS, which is weird because I can't understand why someone would like to upset themselves over a product. And with that happening it's not a surprise to see the devs and us being a bit defensive. Such is the interesting Psychology behind, people who are fed up annoys another and another annoys even more till the point is lost....

Once in a while some people will pop out filled with anger and start repeating the same criticism over and over, and I think the LFS community did a fair share of it to just laugh it away, and of course some of us acted in the fanboy way, however fanboyism wouldn't grow unless someone catered it, and this is where I find the angry customer theory confusing because if someone is being put off by the emotions here, then he is just as emotional affected with his own opinion. If someone truely have a point, he will be heard and there IS a space for that.

I hope those critics don't take us like we actually take things that way, because if you give the LFS community peace and a more relaxing atmosphere, positive inputs might appear more easily.

Like I said way earlier before...most of the posts here are started with a good intention, but in the same time it's hard for us to get into the dev's perspective instead of basing heavily on our own, LFS feed on trust - trust on the devs to work their best, trust on the community to be honest, and trust that this is a package that is going to work.

LFS isn't a number, isn't a brand..it's a way of life that actually allow a humanbeing - instead of just a "consumer" to get involved, and if someone choose not to be involved it's just fine, however one must understand you won't be really contributing unless you get in tune with the relationship.

You can be hardcore and still be objective, loving isn't spoiling, and hating doesn't always bring improvement either, if we trust such ideals are true then there should be nothing to worry about.

If you buy LFS without realising what you are paying for (i.e. S2 which doesn't exist in it's final state) then you are a mug.

If you buy LFS without realising what you are paying for, and then burst into tears about it, then you are a proper fool.

If you buy LFS realising that updates, patches, features and niceties take time and have their own separate adgendas, and want to be, in a way, part of the process, then great. Enjoy LFS. It's not finished, but it's still excellent when compared to ANY other racing sim on any platform. Not the best in every area yet, but perfection takes time. The thing with LFS is that not only is the end product gonna be brilliant, but the journey there is gonna be a good'un too.

A mug?

Quote from Blackout :

A mug?

yeah ..tristancliffe even look as Harry Poter , did any one noticed that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggle
..maybe i am wrong :]

lol Tristan the wizzard

Mug : Slang : a fool or victim.

You're wrong, this is a mug, kind of big cup.. illepall
http://www.martin-baker.com/images/merch_JSF-mug.jpg

Wow... so bored...
I read the posts and then refreshed to see if new ones had appeared before I posted and some had and then I read them and refreshed and there were more boring posts and then I read them again and refreshed again and there were even more boring posts. The only thing I leaned is that "mug" can also be slang for fool. I give up on this thread.

Hey, at least some one gained something from this thread, and all because of an accidental hijacking by me mentioning mugs. Fordie is right, I meant the person type of mug, not the beverage type

Is this better?

Edit2: For Bogey

Weee, now I know one word more
edit. this thread has gone totally wrong btw...

from your friendly customers from hell, who want nothing but the best for you.

Wow, didn't this thread come to a sudden anti-climax?

Never mind, I think it's clear who thinks what about stuff, and who thinks who should sod off and chill out a bit.

The real winner of this argument is LFS, for being of sufficiently high quality to spark such spirited debate You simply don't get such lively discussions over at the Hello Kitty Super Kart forums

Quote from tristancliffe :

Hey, at least some one gained something from this thread, and all because of an accidental hijacking by me mentioning mugs. Fordie is right, I meant the person type of mug, not the beverage type

Is this better?

@tristan: from your piccy "the boy who lived" haha, good one

you should have had LFS tatooed on your head though, not a lightening bolt :P

Forgive Tristan, Father, he doesn't know what he does! He is just a little fanboy...

Well I havent got much more things to say that ne1 has already said ... so, Here is my take, Just let the devs do what they want and how they want it, its there game...let them have their philosophy of running things because...look at this - DONT WE LOVE THIS GAME?? ARENT WE PLAYING EVERY DAY?? ARENT WE PASSIONATE ABOUT IT?? - that means we enjoy because it was well made thus far SO> THEY MUST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT!!! So therefor, let them take there time and do it the way they wanna do it cuz they havent dissapointed us thus far.

LONG LIVE LFS!!

RaCeR