I've had LFS a week or so, and tried an online race for the 1st time earlier this week. I was way off the pace, so decided to go back and focus more on my technique.
I've been trying Aston Cadet reverse in the FOX, and have been gradually increasing the speed, but I'm having difficulty translating what I can see on the replay analyser to my actual driving.
I've compared my laps to a couple on the WR (not the ultimate fastest) and the particular corner I'm struggling with is T1, the right hander. My normal line takes me not enough over to the left to square the corner off and this is costing me a good bit of speed for the run uphill.
If I focus too much on positioning for that turn I usually end up braking late and missing the apex, or turning early and clipping the inside both of which usually end in a spin.
I've noticed I can take it OK at a slower speed, but the characteristics change quite a bit as I increase speed leading to one of the two things I mentioned happening.
Any suggestions as to how to correct my misguided brain, would it be worth running lots of downforce to help take it, or is it better to run my current setup and scrub some speed and build back to racing speed?

Problem:

Quote from Monkeymike :

I've had LFS a week or so

Solution:
Practise more

Really, there is no distinct step by step solution to "I miss the apex when going fast". You have to get a feel for the car and for LFS' physics in general. The only common mistake is that people don't look far enough through a corner, so try forcing yourself to look in the distance - for example before approaching the apex you should already be looking at corner exit and beyond.

I just found my first laps in the FOX, in the Online Race Results. On Aston Club,(my most driven combo now), I started with 1:05. After a few weeks I came into 1:03's. About 6 weeks later I started to do 1:02 low. And shortly after that into 1:01's. I didn't practise fulltime, but I think I raced quite a lot back then.

So before you get some good laptimes, you probably need at least 4 months practise.. Good luck!

Quote from AndroidXP :

Really, there is no distinct step by step solution to "I miss the apex when going fast". You have to get a feel for the car and for LFS' physics in general. The only common mistake is that people don't look far enough through a corner, so try forcing yourself to look in the distance - for example before approaching the apex you should already be looking at corner exit and beyond.

I don't really agree. First you need to aim for the apex. When you're sure you approach the apex the right way, then look at the exit. Also depends on the corner and what's coming next ofcourse. But at least know when to brake and steer in, to start with.

It could take 100+ laps in the beginning before you get some decent times.

Quote from Darkone55 :

I don't really agree. First you need to aim for the apex. When you're sure you approach the apex the right way, then look at the exit. Also depends on the corner and what's coming next ofcourse. But at least know when to brake and steer in, to start with.

It could take 100+ laps in the beginning before you get some decent times.

I would take Androids comment as not literally look but more to think about what it coming up. Best example is a long straight after a corner you take it slightly differently to if it is a chicane say.

Practice is the key though. You can get some good set ups from team inferno site and from players online. A set may make you instantly quicker but it wont able you to keep up with the fastest racers.

Quote from Darkone55 :

I don't really agree. First you need to aim for the apex. When you're sure you approach the apex the right way, then look at the exit. Also depends on the corner and what's coming next ofcourse. But at least know when to brake and steer in, to start with.

hes right thought
the time to look at the apex is during the entry ... by the time the exit is in view its too late to adjust your apex

^

Quote from Darkone55 :

I don't really agree. First you need to aim for the apex. When you're sure you approach the apex the right way, then look at the exit.

Of course you need to aim for the apex at some point, which is at and shortly after corner entry. Then about halfway to apex ("before approaching apex") you should already look at corner exit IMO, or else you'll find you hit apex perfectly but your overall line was crap and you can't make the corner anymore. I think many people make the mistake of having their eyes still glued to the apex when they're already right next to it, resulting in very inconsistent corner exits and erratic lines overall.

Hmm, maybe you're right. I'm not really aware of what I'm doing. I just do what feels right, and it appears to be not bad at all.

Yes that's true. In the end when on the track, you shouldn't be thinking about your driving, lines or anything else at all. But new drivers have to become aware of their mistakes and actively train the correct behaviour so it becomes an automated and completely subconscious reaction/behaviour.

Thanks for all the replies - I agree that not actively thinking about a corner is the best way to drive in LFS or real life, in this case the conscious thinking about that approach is what's undoing me. What I wasn't able to decide was whether there is a better or recommended way to correct a bad line on a corner (this isn't so much an LFS question as general racecraft).
Should I practice being in the correct position on entry and work on my turn-in, or gradually move from my current line to the wider one? Should I consider changing the setup of the car while I'm dealing with this corner?
My concern is that if I spend time doing it one way this may be a waste of effort as it's not going to work out no matter how many laps I put in.

I agree with the above comments. I'm by no means very fast, but all of my pb's have come when I wasn't really thinking about driving, just 'reacting', thats the only way I know how to describe it.

First things first and I've said this before, stay away from the bloody FOX as a beginner. Most new comers jump straight into it and never progress any further, purely because the thing is so easy to drive and be competitive in. Id always recommend starting with the heavier road going cars to get a feel for the sim, then after a while move onto something faster (GTR/LX4-6) and take it from there.

If however you want to stick with driving the FOX then the only thing I can recommend is go as fast as you can, whenever you can, wherever you can. If you screw up then get going and and keep pushing, you'll never learn till you make mistakes and you'll never make mistakes until you bin it

Don't focus too much on how you approach the corner, just think how you want to exit and after a while you'll auto magically find yourself positioned correctly anyway.

Rome wasn't built in a day - So don't expect amazing results just yet, k have fun bye.


Edit: Try following some fast guys, you'll soon pick up their lines.

Quote from Monkeymike :

What I wasn't able to decide was whether there is a better or recommended way to correct a bad line on a corner (this isn't so much an LFS question as general racecraft).

It all depends on how close you are to the car's limits, but basically, the only way to change your line through a corner is to loose speed.

The fastest way around a corner is always the largest possible radius. If your turn-in, apex and track-out point are correct, the radius will be greater than if you just followed the edge of the track on the outside (by about 50% for a 90° corner on a reasonably wide racetrack), and it will be much greater than if you followed it on the inside (about 90° for the same corner!). So when possible, use as much track as you can to increase this radius (by being as close as possible to the outside at turn-in and track-out, and to the inside at the apex).

Quote from Monkeymike :

Should I practice being in the correct position on entry and work on my turn-in, or gradually move from my current line to the wider one?

According to geometry, if your turn-in point is too early, you'll apex too early, and you'll run wide at track-out (unless you tighten your radius, which, if you're close to the limit, can only be done by slowing down). If your turn-in is too late, you'll apex later, and you'll have plenty of room left on the outside at track-out (but you'll be slower). Therefore, the safe way to figure out your line through a corner is to start with a late turn-in, that will guaranty you to stay on the tarmac at track-out, and progressively move your turn-in earlier until you find the point that allows the highest speed around the corner.

Flip

flips approach is a bit too theoretical

imho the best way to nail your turn in is to just drive lap after lap, focus on the apex while youre still braking and just turn in when it feels right
by seeing your entry line progress from the point where youre still going straight youll soon figure out which line feels best

I'll preface this by saying that I am not fast...comparitive to most people. My two goals are, for the most part, finish on lead lap, and don't wreck anyone.

There are 2 things though, that I see alot of people doing in sims for some reason. 1, they set their steering wheel up to be too touchy. It makes the car jumpy and make correcting when you start to lose the back-end almost impossible. If you have force feedback on, it makes it harder to "feel" the car through a corner.

The second this is not turning enough. When I have friends over, I'll let them play. I notice that they "push" in corners primarily because they simply arent turning enough. Especially in the high-downforce cars, you can turn the things a lot more than you think you can.

As far as what to start with...I don't really want to drive the cars/gtr cars so much. I started with the mrt, then the fox, and now I'm working on the bf1. Im great in the mrt, ok in the fox, and still pretty slow with the bf1. However, driving the bf1 is helping my fox skills, just as trying the fox improved my mrt skills.

Then again, I'm just here to have fun. I'll never be chasing the PB top lists, I may never win against some of the best guys...but I sure have fun being out there with them.

Quote from rjm1982 :

The second this is not turning enough. When I have friends over, I'll let them play. I notice that they "push" in corners primarily because they simply arent turning enough. Especially in the high-downforce cars, you can turn the things a lot more than you think you can.

Actually I think what you describe *only* happens in slicked downforce cars. In the road cars everybody seems to turn too much, especially if the tyre pressures are low causing your steering input to be delayed (so they overcompensate steering for 'quicker' reaction of the car), and even more so in RWD cars. Not seldom do I see people who keep steering into the corner all the way through it with an RWD car, only to wonder about sudden oversteer when they start to unwind the wheel on corner exit.
Though, most fast setups having a locked diff doesn't help either...

I use the autocross editor to learn new lines.

Load a hotlap replay into AnalyseforSpeed to see where the line goes, open LFS on that track, and hit shift+u to open the editor. You can then swap between them and place lines, arrows and markers on the road to show brake points, turn in points and the best line to take.

My advice: just race.

After years of varying LfS activity, I regard myself as a lower end mediocre driver at best, but I found that I learned most when racing online. I find it easier to follow another car and imidating the line on the fly than analysing replays of good laps.

Be safe enough not to crash the others though, so you might practice with a car/setup a tad offline before spinning it mid field Also, if your're close behind someone, make sure you brake early.