But if you push in the clutch, then the tires will be disconnected from the engine, which therefore would decrease the rotational inertia of the wheels. Wouldn't easing off the throttle, and pushing in the clutch be better then lifting off the throttle?
But if you push in the clutch, then the tires will be disconnected from the engine, which therefore would decrease the rotational inertia of the wheels. Wouldn't easing off the throttle, and pushing in the clutch be better then lifting off the throttle?
No you're right there 90% of the time you need to do something with the throttle that doesn't involve reducing it though and you never want to lift fully off the throttle, that's like pulling the handbrake.
No declutching is never going to give you ultimate control it will leave the car relatively neutral though and will remove the factor of human stupidity and stop you being able to apply too much or removing too much throttle and for the general public who struggle with the concept of steering the other way, I bet a lot of accidents are caused by people trying to fight against the force of the cars steering naturally applying opposite lock, it is best if you can get them to just declutch so they won't do something stupid like take their feet off the pedals or brake which only makes it impossible to deal with.
Of course remember most slides are easily catchable and often with a bit of oversteer you can even manage to brake if you balance the car on the throttle on a race track but we're talking here about a lot of oversteer, either more than you want or in a situation where you don't want oversteer and are tying to do everything you can to get rid of it
I hate to rain on your parade but no, you are the one that is wrong. And yes, what i said is the reason for not depressing the clutch in turns. Granted on any normal day where the roads are free of debris and water, depressing the clutch will most likely cause nothing bad. Given a wet, slippery road surface, what you said is wrong, and there WILL be issues if you depress the clutch during the turn. Why am i arguing with you when it is clear that you are the one in need of a read?
How can you prove that tristan is wrong? He has described experiences he has had with driving cars on the limit, in multiple cars. Ans7812, What experience to you have to support your idea? In my opinion, it is idiotic to come on to the forum, and tell people that they are wrong, and then not have any experience to back up the opinion. I also find it daft to tell anyone that they are wrong, unless you have first-hand knowledge. But using words like "in my opinion...", "It has been my experience that....", and "I find that...", make you sound more intelligent.
Oh dear... what theory have you come up with as to why the car will magically spin? I'd love to hear it, unless your right on the limit and the loss of power results in a shift of weight distribution to the front or the change in locking in the diff causes an issue. In any case declutching will have far less of an effect on stability than lifting off the throttle. There are reasons for not declutching round a corner such as the fact it's a bad mechanical practice to needlessly declutch, putting a level of stress on the clutch and drivetrain for no reason and it's needless effort. The real reason though is if some idiot lets the car come to idle with the engine declutched then suddenly clutches again locking the rear wheels, giving him an extreme case of guess what, lift off oversteer!
You don't need to have experienced these things to actually have an intelligent discussion about them, what you need to have is a good understanding of how a car works and some basic physics, even experienced drivers do make very silly comments based on flawed understanding and things they think happen. We all have some silly misunderstandings and although we don't like to admit it it helps if you can open up and think logically when someone explains through why something you think is just plain incorrect.
That's why my posts are mostly in question form. When I make a post in the form of a question, I want to learn more. It's when I post my opinion, that causes things go downhill.
I already gave the explanation as to why depressing the clutch in a turn on wet/slippery roads. I also gave you first hand experience as to what happened when i did the wrong thing. I am surprised that someone like you, who races in real life does not know this common bit of info.
The problem with the whole thread is you, ans7812, are a tool. You just everything the "professionals" tell you and regurgitate. I've not read a sensible post from you where you ARGUE your point... you know say WHY you are correct, more so than giving examples out of your great book of driving experiences or repeating what someone told you.
Regarding the having the clutch down in a corner, not everyone is taught to heal-and-toe. The second most sensible thing to do, performance disregarded is brake for a corner, press the clutch before the corner, move the gear level into the desired gear (usually 2nd), go through the corner and apply a small amount of power on the way out before releasing the clutch so that you don't get a jerk due to engine braking.
This thread is getting sooooo unbelievably boring.
Regarding the having the clutch down in a corner, not everyone is taught to heal-and-toe. The second most sensible thing to do, performance disregarded is brake for a corner, press the clutch before the corner, move the gear level into the desired gear (usually 2nd), go through the corner and apply a small amount of power on the way out before releasing the clutch so that you don't get a jerk due to engine braking.
This thread is getting sooooo unbelievably boring.
I imagined something different, believe me.
But I'm wondering about that last sentence in the second part of your post. You apply a small amount of power on the out before releasing the clutch. So you had the clutch engaged through the corner? You go into 2nd gear for the corner and you DRIVE in it, you shouldn't be holding down the clutch.
If you don't heal-toe, it's difficult to get all your braking done, be in 2nd, and with the clutch released when you go into the corner. So you can go through most of the corner with the clutch pressed and do the rev-matching as you start applying power to leave the corner. Then you can release the clutch. It has obvious disadvantages performance-wise, but it's safe and easy. That's how I was taught by my dad anyway and it's never gotten him into a slide... and he used to drive a RWD Lada while we were in Bulgaria, on icy roads there.
I find this hilarious. You just spent a whole post trashing me because i'm not backing up my knowledge or regurgitating what someone has told me. Now when its your turn to explain, you simply say "my dad taught it to me and he's never slid so he must be right." I find that funny don't you? I've had first hand experience taking corners with the clutch in and sliding through them. I know for a fact that being in gear during a turn is the safest way to take it because i've EXPERIENCED both ways.
Second of all sgt.flippy is right. (I gather that you agree with me about not keeping the clutch in through a corner?) You get your braking and shifting done BEFORE the corner, and then turn and continue on. It is not hard at all to get all of that done before turning. Sometimes i heel/toe, sometimes i don't, i've never had a problem braking before a turn. You should always be in gear in a turn which goes back to my original argument. There is no reason for having the clutch in during a turn.
You didn't give an explanation, you just stated an opinion.
If the road is wet and you press the clutch, and you are driving sensibly - nothing will happen (other than the usual stuff like slowing down). If you are pushing it (heading towards the limit) then I grant you pressing the clutch would be like going to partial throttle suddenly (i.e. not as bad as lifting completely), and you might get a tiny slide. But we were discussing this at road speeds (I thought).
It isn't common info, because it's false info, that you and only you have heard of.
Here is where you gave an explaination as to why clutching will reduce traction to the point of oversteer:
You see - no explaination at all. Just a statement (that's wrong mostly).
Oh, and for the record, it's not that easy to brake from 135mph in 5th to 40mph in 2nd, going down the gears, on the limit of braking, without locking a front or snatching a rear on downshifts. There isn't much time, there is a lot to do, and that's before you even think about racing! Until you race in real life (be it saloons, single seaters or GTs) don't make statements like 'it's easy'.
In post #70 i gave an explanation as you why it is possible to slide.
In response to your edit, I, like you, assumed we were talking about public road speeds. If you are driving 135mph on public roads, let me know when you are in my state so I can stay out of your way.
Firstly I don't race in real life but have lots of experience running racing cars, which TBH when you actually understand how each system works without having to think about it lets you logically think through and explain what happens. I've been in dodgy situations driving on the road and the response has always been automatic thinking about what I'm doing to the car, not think oh I'm going in to quick lets lift off the go pedal onto the stop one better not touch that clutch pedal because obviously that will make the car spin. Driving a car that's on the edge of control requires a mixture of fast reactions, knowing what to do and most importantly recognising what's going to happen before it happens and planning what your going to do before it happens.
I don't heel and toe and tend to pop it into a sensible gear under braking then balance it on the throttle and balance the brake with my left foot, takes a bit of getting used to being sensitive with your left foot but you soon get the hang of not pressing it like you do the clutch
But Axus has explained things in terms of physics and clearly understands what he's talking about, the method he's described may not be the best but he's not posted some complete bullshit like 'if you put your foot on the clutch you will spin' and I'm sure if you make a sensible question about his statement rather than telling him he's silly he'll explain it to you.
Going on personal experience is silly you say that pushing the clutch in made you spin are you sure you weren't going to spin anyway. If I enter a harpin at 180mph with my air conditioning turned on it's obviously my air cons fault and you have to turn it off before you go round a corner?
...and I gave you an explanation as to why allowing the wheels to spin freely would reduce the difference in speed between the wheels and road and be more stable than if you lifted off the throttle. You didn't explain anything you just simply got part of the way in the chain of events. Saying that when you press the throttle it opens the throttle butterflies explains part of the process of increasing your engine speed, but it doesn't give you a satisfactory answer as to why it happens because it doesn't complete a chain of results.
What thread are you reading? I never said "pushing in the clutch makes you spin." What i did say was "pushing in the clutch during a turn is not a good idea especially when the conditions are slippery because there is a much greater chance of losing the back end."
Okay, let's have a look at post #70!
That's very kind by the way - if I do decide to drive that speed, I will be safe in the knowledge that there is one less granny on the road!
Anyway, post 70...The drive wheels don't 'spin freely' at all - they are driven by the road. They can't suddenly spin to lose traction, nor suddenly slow to lose traction (unless you hit the brakes). Thus it doesn't happen. Your explanation isn't in fact an explanation - it's just a sequence of events you have made up (wrong) to try and make a point. I assure you it doesn't happen. I would happily be proven wrong with a video of you driving, showing your inputs (incl. pedals) and the result (out of the windscreen). Alternatively, get Skip Barber to post here
Erm, you said this:
You didn't say "much greater chance", you said "will", and you capitalised it!!
Face it, you don't know what you're talking about, you don't even know what you are saying, you can't remember what you or us have said, yet you won't admit to it?!
I know what i said. "Given a wet, slippery road surface." I did not say "Pushing in the clutch makes you spin." Which is exactly what ajp claims that i said. Also, i did hit the brakes because i had to slow in the turn...
And i would be happy to take up your offer if you purchase for me 2 cameras and the editing equipment necessary to produce such a video.
Oh, yeah, the explanation in post #70:
I'd really like to know what will make them spin? And further more, there is friction between the road and the tyre. The tyre will always try to bring itself back to neutral slip angle/slip ratio, though it will have forces resisting this.
All in all, there is absolutely no reason why you can't enter a corner on clutch and go through it on clutch or even clutch mid-corner provided you don't do anything violent with the car... which applies to all the other controls also.
EDIT: Beaten by Tristan.
I'd really like to know what will make them spin? And further more, there is friction between the road and the tyre. The tyre will always try to bring itself back to neutral slip angle/slip ratio, though it will have forces resisting this.
All in all, there is absolutely no reason why you can't enter a corner on clutch and go through it on clutch or even clutch mid-corner provided you don't do anything violent with the car... which applies to all the other controls also.
EDIT: Beaten by Tristan.
Sorry, but you clearly said pressing the clutch in during a turn in the wet, even when not on the limit, WILL make you slide.
The face you now admit you were braking shows that you have absolutely no idea what caused the slide at all.
The face you now admit you were braking shows that you have absolutely no idea what caused the slide at all.
So now you tell us that you were using the brakes as well as the clutch, which I'm sure Skip Barber will tell you is the first no no and a sure way to get the arse out, but obviously they had nothing to do with it, it was just pressing the clutch that 'gave you problems' what problems exactly? Did it suddenly produce a hungry lion in the passenger seat, sorry I kind of assumed 'trouble' meant oversteer when we're having a conversation about oversteer and the result of this 'trouble' was a spun car
I braked normally as most people brake before a turn, or am i wrong about that too? The result wasn't a spun car, the ass slid out, i countersteered and got it straight and drove on. It happened all within 3, 4 seconds at most.
Read the top quote. You said "because i had to slow in the turn...". Not FOR the turn, but IN the turn.
If you can't be bothered to type what you mean, or what actually happened, then just shut up and realise you can't drive very well. I don't know if you are drunk, misinformed, stupid, brainless or what, but all of those things and more are starting (I said starting) to come across in your posts. I am assuming, possibly naively, that you aren't just trolling, so I'll give you the benefit of that doubt.
Anti-skidding lessons
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