I know there are lots and lots of threads like these but I've been searching round and couldn't find one quite like what I'm interested in. What I'd like is a PC capable of playing LFS without any worries of FPS issues and being able to actually produce useable framerates on DX9, mostly rF and possibly a few others, like BF2 and GTA5/Mafia 2 when they come out. Apart from a bit a photo editing I don't really need to do anything else taxing on my PC so mainly LFS and light gaming usage is what I'm looking for.

I don't really want (or am able) to spend very much, probably around £400 or less if possible. I don't really mind whether I buy a box of bits or a pre-packaged PC, which I think would be a cheaper option. What's essential is I get a decent enough processor for LFS and obviously a reasonable graphics card with a PCI slot so I can upgrade at a later date. As for OS I'm not really bothered but can't see any advantages in Vista but maybe it would be better for the future.

I'm in no hurry to buy this computer so if it's worth waiting a bit for prices to fall then that's fine, but TBH that's always the case with computers. I'm not really interested in monitor packages unless they're very good value and good quality screens, otherwise I'm happy to stubbornly stick to my two ancient CRTs. Any suggestions to what I should be looking at would be great

Firstly - a complete build or is there ANYTHING you could save?

Also, are you competant in building it yourself, and would you want to be able to overclock, or would you be happy with a cheap-ass motherboard? Would you want any sort of "future proof" or would you want it to be as quick as possible (ie skimp on mobo/PSU, which i don't recommend)

Quote from Jakg :

Firstly - a complete build or is there ANYTHING you could save?

Nothing major currently got a 2.8ghz P4, 1.5gb DDR (could nab the 1gb if it would fit) and an AGP graphics slot (so no graphics card to transfer).

Other than that I could take the sound card, wireless network adapter, DVD drive. I could nick the hard drive but TBH it would probably be useful to keep this PC but basically I'm looking for a new PC.

Quote :

Also, are you competant in building it yourself, and would you want to be able to overclock, or would you be happy with a cheap-ass motherboard? Would you want any sort of "future proof" or would you want it to be as quick as possible (ie skimp on mobo/PSU, which i don't recommend)

I'm mechanically capable, although AFAIK building a computer is just slotting bits together and I'm sure there'll be an idiots guide somewhere explaining the process of building a PC and setting it up. A self-build doesn't phase me, though I'm not overly bothered about DIY for the sake of it.

EDIT - lol I just noticed Amp has a thread with an identical title, well I said it was yet another one of these threads

Sorry i took so long to respond.

Oh nice something to think about, thanks Jakg. AFAIK all I'd need to add onto that would be a hard drive and OS and I'd be away?

One little detail though which website is that?

Quote from ajp71 :

Oh nice something to think about, thanks Jakg. AFAIK all I'd need to add onto that would be a hard drive and OS and I'd be away?

One little detail though which website is that?

Hi there,

The site is www.overclockers.co.uk.. I highly recommend them.

A couple more questions:

1) Would there be much point putting Vista onto this computer, how much of a resource killer is it? I'm assuming XP or Vista would do and the graphics card is never going to be worth bothering with in DX10 XP and Vista basic are the same price in OEM form anyway so I think Vista would probably be the better long term choice?

2) Do all Intel Core 2s take the same socket (or at least some)? So there's future potential for upgrading?

3) How did people learn to build their first PC? Any good books to read? Might slow the flow of silly questions a bit

Quote from Origamiboy :

The site is www.overclockers.co.uk.. I highly recommend them.

Nice site, I've always used ebuyer before

1) There's a SP in the works for Vista. It's a toss-up for me, DX10 in the future could be good, its worthless now.

2) Yea, they're all 775 socket. The chipset and 1333fsb support is the main future-proofing, P35 is the newest, yet X38 is about 3-4 weeks away.

3) "How to Build a PC for Dummies" - lol, it was quite a bit below my technical level, but good that it walked you through all the steps. A worthwhile $10 for me, its not that hard once you do it once.

Quote from ajp71 :

Oh nice something to think about, thanks Jakg. AFAIK all I'd need to add onto that would be a hard drive and OS and I'd be away?

One little detail though which website is that?

Ooops. I forgot the HDD's! Crap! http://www.overclockers.co.uk/ ... p;catid=14&subcat=768 is what i'd get.

Quote from Origamiboy :

Hi there,

The site is www.overclockers.co.uk.. I highly recommend them.

Just ftr i use Overclockers to price up stuff because they have a good search (unlike eBuyer) and they tend to have prices that aren't the best, but are only a few quid off. eBuyer are my retailer of choice for free postage, but Scan and Aria are also good.

I wouldn't buy from Overclockers because of the horror stories i've heard about them, and because the owner of the company starts threads like "Why Do Pakistani's Smell So Bad" on the overclockers.co.uk forum.

Quote from ajp71 :

A couple more questions:

1) Would there be much point putting Vista onto this computer, how much of a resource killer is it? I'm assuming XP or Vista would do and the graphics card is never going to be worth bothering with in DX10 XP and Vista basic are the same price in OEM form anyway so I think Vista would probably be the better long term choice?

2) Do all Intel Core 2s take the same socket (or at least some)? So there's future potential for upgrading?

3) How did people learn to build their first PC? Any good books to read? Might slow the flow of silly questions a bit

1. Currently i'm not liking Vista - it does nothing XP didn't, but use more RAM and crash more (nVidia's fault tbh)

2. Intel use the same socket a lot, and as such not all 775 boards work with all 775 CPU's - for example some motherboards won't take 1333 MHz CPU's (but you can easily "overclock" the speed back up again), some won't take Core 2 CPU's, some won't take Quad's etc. The new 45 nm chips on the horizon, Penryn, are also something not all mobo's will support.

The mobo i linked to you will support Penryn, Quad's and 1333 MHz CPU's, so you should be set!

3. Screw books - everything on paper is waaaaaaay to generalised and out of date (inc PC Magazines "help section"). In short, you simply plug lots of wires in, and then you put some paste on the CPU and screw the heatsink on. It's not hard at all, but it wouldn't be hard to kill something. Google is your friend!

If you want an OS as well then that build will be tight for £400 - i'd probably loose the GFX for a 7600GT and swap the memory (which was on special offer from overclockers - the only reason i picked such nice stuff) for some Value RAM. Then i'd grab XP (or probably XP Pro.

Quote from Jakg :

Ooops. I forgot the HDD's! Crap! http://www.overclockers.co.uk/ ... p;catid=14&subcat=768 is what i'd get.
Just ftr i use Overclockers to price up stuff because they have a good search (unlike eBuyer) and they tend to have prices that aren't the best, but are only a few quid off. eBuyer are my retailer of choice for free postage, but Scan and Aria are also good.

I had a little look could do the ATI card for £485 inc. P+P using a combination of ebuyer + OC or £472 for the 7600GT. Out of interest are these prices likely to fall in the next few months as I'm probably not going to do much more until around Christmas, when I've got time a chance to work and it's also a good time of year to smile nicely

Quote :

In short, you simply plug lots of wires in, and then you put some paste on the CPU and screw the heatsink on. It's not hard at all, but it wouldn't be hard to kill something. Google is your friend!

If I buy a retail processor (as you included) the heatsink and fan are already included and it's just a case of slotting it in and without overclocking never worrying about temps?

Another thing, how do you go about determining what PSU you need? I see there's a choice of 450, 500 or 550 in that range and obviously you reckon 500 is the better choice but how did you come to that decision (just out of interest because I really don't have a clue)?

EDIT - actually a bit less than I said because I deducted the pre-VAT price from the ebuyer total to get each graphics card price :doh:

You seem to have bought 2 GFX cards....

The 1950GT is slower than the Pro - the Pro is a much better buy

For a retail CPU there are thermal pads (i think, been so long since i bought one!) which aren't great, but you just sort of drop it on - personally i'd get a tube of AS5 and use if even if i wasn't overclocking because it will make about 5° drop for a fiver, and a tube can do about 5 or 6 CPU's - less heat / less noise, remember. The heatsink is NOT already on the CPU, ftr.

Intel Stock coolers aren't amazing, but i'm the sort of guy who would give it a little overclock and buy a new heatsnk (like the £20 Freezer 7 Pro) as it's quieter.

I wouldn't recommend BF2 with 1 GB of RAM - with a Pro you could max it with 4xAA, but with 1 GB of RAM you wont without mega stutters etc. I'd look at 2 GB, the memory i posted earlier is fast and cheap.

The PSU was a guess - that PC probably uses about 400w, but to run it on 400w would require a decent unit (like a Tagan) - a higher powered unit like that OcUK Huntkey isn't as good quality and won't have as much amperage, but it will do the job.

Quote from Jakg :

You seem to have bought 2 GFX cards....

The 1950GT is slower than the Pro - the Pro is a much better buy

I added them both to the checkout to try and make comparing them simpler, hadn't spotted I'd picked up the wrong ATI card though.

Quote :

For a retail CPU there are thermal pads (i think, been so long since i bought one!) which aren't great, but you just sort of drop it on - personally i'd get a tube of AS5 and use if even if i wasn't overclocking because it will make about 5° drop for a fiver, and a tube can do about 5 or 6 CPU's - less heat / less noise, remember. The heatsink is NOT already on the CPU, ftr.

So although it isn't put together with a tube of thermal paste the retail box contains everything I need to cool my CPU?

Quote :

I wouldn't recommend BF2 with 1 GB of RAM - with a Pro you could max it with 4xAA, but with 1 GB of RAM you wont without mega stutters etc. I'd look at 2 GB, the memory i posted earlier is fast and cheap.

Is there much to choose between different types of DDR2 RAM, does the quality gaming RAM that costs a lot more actually make a difference? I wasn't sure whether I'd need it so had thought I'd go for 1GB and have it as a later upgrade option, but if it's worth getting then I'll go for 2GB.

How will the 7600GT cope with games like BF2?

The "quality" DDR2 RAM has lower timings (faster), looks nicer, will have a higher resale value and overclocks better - this is in comparison to branded value RAM - unbranded generic RAM is so bloody dodgy and unreliable, i wouldn't

And those sticks aren't that cheap when you factor in VAT...

A 7600GT should be able to max BF2 with 2xAA.

Quote from Jakg :

The "quality" DDR2 RAM has lower timings (faster), looks nicer, will have a higher resale value and overclocks better - this is in comparison to branded value RAM - unbranded generic RAM is so bloody dodgy and unreliable, i wouldn't

Silly question coming up...

How do you tell how fast RAM is, I thought that the 4200, 5400, 6400 and so on determined how quick the RAM was? Does all DDR2 fit the same, I seem to remember that when I bought RAM for my PC there was a choice of two different sizes but DDR2 seems to be all 240 pin.

Last time I bought value RAM and it has worked fine maybe I just got lucky

Think of RAM as a train - the speed (ie DDR800, or PC6400 etc) is the speed, but the timings are how quick passengers can get on and off - with crap timings its slow, and with great timings things are quicker, but speed is still more important.

Value RAM is ok, but generic stuff is pot luck, and i don't want to spend £63 on pot luck when a quicker branded set of RAM is cheaper!

That RAM from OC does seem very good value not a lot more than the value 2GB option, and a lot less than the other decent looking RAM. Is that offer a common type of thing or do you think it'd be worth consider getting it (and motherboard, case and PSU) from OC this week as I'd guess the price is less likely to fall on those type of components than processors, graphics cards and so on if I'm not planning to do anything with them for a few months, of course one other thing is I don't get to test the parts and may struggle to return them if something isn't right, is that a common problem or not worth worrying about?

Usually most thigns work fine - i can't say how long that deal will last, but memory prices are going up while GFX/CPU prices slowly rise.

Quote from Jakg :

Usually most thigns work fine - i can't say how long that deal will last, but memory prices are going up while GFX/CPU prices slowly rise.

As in the same components will be more expensive in a few months time (above and beyond inflation)? Or that the new components will be more comparatively more expensive?


How much would that memory normally be worth? When I bought 1GB of DDR1 for my PC it cost me over £60 inc VAT + P+P from ebuyer and that was the cheapest around so 2GB for a fraction over that seems pretty good value to me.

DDR2 is in a "price slump" as Samsung got caught price fixing, it's starting to go back up now then

Looking at the DVD drives again there's a choice between IDE or SATA, I'm a little confused as to what the advantages are (I thought a disc drive would be limited by the hardware). What can I use on my motherboard, I see it has 4 SATA so I guess I'll need one for the hard drive and one for the DVD and two spare (you can see why I need to go and get a book to cover the basics )?

Also I can't see any mention of SATA 2 on the motherboard page so will it take a SATA 2 hard drive?

Quote from ajp71 :

Looking at the DVD drives again there's a choice between IDE or SATA, I'm a little confused as to what the advantages are (I thought a disc drive would be limited by the hardware). What can I use on my motherboard, I see it has 4 SATA so I guess I'll need one for the hard drive and one for the DVD and two spare (you can see why I need to go and get a book to cover the basics )?

Also I can't see any mention of SATA 2 on the motherboard page so will it take a SATA 2 hard drive?

no point in SATA optical drives atm, just buy a cheap IDE thing.

SATA cables are a lot nicer, if they're the same price I'd go SATA. My IDE DVD+-R drive's cable is the main clutter of my pc...

This memory is a nice brand and has the same timings as the stuff i linked too - http://www.aria.co.uk/SuperSpe ... campaign=newsletter030907

Super cheap RAM i don't think i'd trust - http://www.aria.co.uk/SuperSpe ... campaign=newsletter030907

Thanks for all this help, I did go out and get a Haynes manual in the end, just reconfirmed the basics for me that I sometimes get confused about with computers, although admittedly it's not quite as up to date as the Haynes Mini restoration manual that I've got somewhere

Quote from Jakg :

This memory is a nice brand and has the same timings as the stuff i linked too - http://www.aria.co.uk/SuperSpe ... campaign=newsletter030907

Ah well 2 of those would be no more expensive than getting that OC offer, so I'll wait until I can afford everything and have time to put it together, probably find some slightly better things are around by then in my price bracket and I could reconsider Vista again.

Quote :

- Based on NVIDIA nForce 650i Ultra Chipset chipset
- Supports Intel Core 2 Extreme, Intel Core 2 Quad, Intel Core 2 Duo, Pentium EE, and Pentium processors
- 1066/1333 Mhz Front Side Bus
- 4 x 240-pin DIMM sockets
- Dual Channel DDR2
- Maximum of 8GB of DDR2 533/667/800MHz
- 1 x PCIe x16, 2 x PCIe x1, 3 x PCI
- 3 x 32-bit PCI, support for PCI 2.1
- 1 x UltraDMA133
- 4 x Serial ATA 300MB/sec with support for RAID 0, RAID1, RAID 0+1
- 300MB/sec x Floppy disk drive connector
- 7.1 Channel
- 1 x 10/100/1000 LAN via
- 1 x PS2 Keyboard
- 1 x PS2 Mouse
- 1 x Serial Ports
- 10 x USB2.0 ports (6 external + 4 internal headers)
- Audio connector (Line-in, Line-out, MIC)
- ATX Form Factor
- Length: 12.0in - 304.8mm
- Width: 9.6in - 243.6mm

I'm a little bit lost as to what this motherboard has. It has 4 SATAs, one per hard drive/disk drive? I can't see any IDE drives on the specification (although the comments on OC says it has an IDE) and what about SATA II, I can't see any mentioned in the spec, does this mean I need to get a SATA hard drive rather than a SATA II?