hey ,

just noticed that many setups (not mines) have a huge camber values, especially for the GTi.. take a look at the screenshot (it's a setting i got from someone online, and he was always on the pole position by the way )

anyway , i'd like to know what u think about those kinda huge cambers, is it that way in real life ? would you set your camber that way if u had a Gti (meant for racing of course) in real life ? i mean settings are supposed to be as close as reality goes , dont they ?

You have to check the live-camber on the screen, as camber varies with suspension travel. The setting for camber is pretty arbitrary.

I don't see any screen shots

Cant say Ive noticed hugely weird looking cambers, I have seen some pretty extreme cambers being used in racing though. I have always wondered why people in LFS use such high ride height settings on the GTR cars though.

sorry forgot to attach teh shot , im gonna do it right away

Hehe, live camber is even more extreme than the camber adjust value. From what Todd's told me, LFS' camber simulation isn't exactly top notch. I'll ask him to take a look here when he can but I don't know how much he'd be willing to share.

Look at some real world race cars. BTTC for instance and look at the camber they run at. Even F1 you will often see shots of the front wheels heavily cambered.

But whether or not it is truly representative in LFS is fairly arbitary. The Tyre modelling will punish for too much camber so as you don't get a increase in performance with the increase in camber (I.E. you have to find the sweet spot) then questioning it's accuracy is meerly quibling.

Quote from axus :

Hehe, live camber is even more extreme than the camber adjust value. From what Todd's told me, LFS' camber simulation isn't exactly top notch. I'll ask him to take a look here when he can but I don't know how much he'd be willing to share.

cool , hopefully we'll have some clarifications, cos honestly those cambers really surprised me and the funny thing is that the car seems to handle pretty well with those values and tires heat doesnt seem to be unbalanced even if it should.. i'll post the setting itself so you can take a closer look at it and test it..

Aussie V8s are a prime example of this. It almost looks like the suspension has failed for these cars as they run very high camber settings

Quote from Woz :

Aussie V8s are a prime example of this. It almost looks like the suspension has failed for these cars as they run very high camber settings

yeah sure about the V8 series , but im talkin about a simple GTi which supposed to be just slightly modified if you see what i mean.. i think you shouldnt comparing the 2 cars cos they're way too different IMO..i still think the camber is way too high for such a car, even if it's meant for the track use..

I would like to know what the issues are specifically. I can't see the traction being wrong in the longitudinal direction, that's pretty self explanatory, so it must be a lateral issue. I would think that the dynamic contact patch being as large as possible would yield the most grip laterally as well; and if that's not so that I would like to know why...

Quote from silent_wind :

yeah sure about the V8 series , but im talkin about a simple GTi which supposed to be just slightly modified if you see what i mean.. i think you shouldnt comparing the 2 cars cos they're way too different IMO..i still think the camber is way too high for such a car, even if it's meant for the track use..

Why would the physical principles be any different?

The more the body rolls, the more camber you need. Dynamic camber (as a result of suspension geometry and travel) only helps so much.

What do you mean? You need more camber because more weight is put in the outside of the tire through bodyroll? Most racing setups have very little roll anyway... How else do you accomplish that besides through the suspension geometry?

all what im trying to say is : the camber value is too high for a GTi, in real life you never have those huge cambers for such a car... in LFS you need to have too much camber to reach the optimum tire temps..

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

What do you mean? You need more camber because more weight is put in the outside of the tire through bodyroll?

no you need moe camber because the body roll equalizes the camber
especially in a gti which has a very high cog and trailing arms id fully expect some very high camber values

Quote from Shotglass :

no you need moe camber because the body roll equalizes the camber

Isn't the geometric effect of bodyroll on the loaded side effectively the same as compressing that side otherwise?

Forgive me I am sleep deprived and thoughts are sketchy at best today....

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Isn't the geometric effect of bodyroll on the loaded side effectively the same as compressing that side otherwise?

in the car reference system yes ... in the road system the tyre rolls along with the body
http://www.autozine.org/techni ... handling_2.htm#Sus-design

Body roll results in a tendency towards positive camber (relative to the road). Suspension compression results in a tendency towards negative camber (relative to the road). With a high CoG you get more body roll and hence need more negative camber. Hence the extreme camber values. Which is what Shotglass is saying.

There must be more to it than body roll though, for example RACE_S gives just over 2 degrees body roll yet, live camber (when parked) is set to more than this yet the tyres still don't really have enough camber? That's without extra camber from suspension geometry? Things don't seem te add up? How much would tyre flexing add? Enough to cover it? From a purely vertical standpoint I've got figures of half a degree but LFS is way more complicated than that.

You also have to add caster effects to that as on the outside wheel you'd get more negative camber because of that too. So really, that's a lot of camber once everything is added up - so you'd need about 7-8 degrees of body roll to make the outside (more important tyre) vertical to the road. It's important to consider track camber also because the crazy camber values could be because of track camber.

Quote from Shotglass :

in the car reference system yes ... in the road system the tyre rolls along with the body
http://www.autozine.org/techni ... handling_2.htm#Sus-design

Right, so you're effectively changing the weight distribution in the area of the contact patch through roll, which is what I said above - just not as eloquently as you. Ok, I am not losing it - all is well.

I don't think the rediculous cambers are necessarily a 'bug'. More a product of the fact we don't have to buy or even look after tyres. Just whack loads of camber on them, use the pressures to keep it cool, and hey-presto quick times. If we had to look after tyres for more than 20 minutes, or suffered graining, and more than just slightly hot temps, then we'd run sensible values.

In real life you want the inside edge no more than 10°C hotter than the outside edge, to preserve tyres, keep them from being damaged etc. We don't have to worry about that.

The question is, if you didn't have to look after tyres at all, would real life cars have that much camber - I reckon they would!

These camper values are not really strange for so narrow and high profile tires with that low pressures.
The low tire pressures are abnormal… And as long the LFS’s engine does not simulate tire puncture due to extreme deflection, this will remain the same.

And also consider the rear tyres used in this set are Hybrid - that is even further from RL and weird but may justify the higher camber values for deflection.
Unfortunately this strange set works much better, when I first used this kind of set I immediatly knocked 1 sec off my laptimes in BL compared to the "realistic" set I created after long trials.

Quote from Mille Sabords :

And also consider the rear tyres used in this set are Hybrid - that is even further from RL and weird but may justify the higher camber values for deflection.
Unfortunately this strange set works much better, when I first used this kind of set I immediatly knocked 1 sec off my laptimes in BL compared to the "realistic" set I created after long trials.

you got it and you said it : "that's strange but working".. so it gotta be something wrong about those values, tires or whatever is related..

since most races online are so short, you can get away with it.

Try running one of those rediculous camber setups for a full fuel tank run...