You are right, I don't like exclusionary practices (and I don't mean race practices). The point was that licensing systems (and by no means am I pointing fingers at CTRA just in and of itself), tons of mods (re: rFactor), tends to divide the community up into insular pockets. Or let's take another case; drifting or drag racing. Most folks look down on drifting and dragging. I'm not a fan of the drifting myself, but as long as drifters aren't trying to drift on a race server and visa versa, they are positives to the community. Trying to exclude them in some ways is harmful. In regards to licensing, or at least creating "special servers" (whether licensing or other systems are involved), also decreases the number of good drivers out in the public domain that can help set good examples for newer drivers. Or even help them out (as long as requests are politely done).

As for your league, if um your drivers drivers need practice time without interruption, then the use of a private server is ideal.

I never said CTRA was a bad thing, all I am saying is the creating too many subdivions without the community based on exclusionary ideas is bad. Providing different ways of using LFS is good; such as the CTRA ladder (aka licensing) system, Cruise Servers, drifting servers and competitions, drag competitions, etc. All good.

P.S. Since you made the point to someone else about remembering the "old days", I was racing back before S1 days and got S1 on 05/30/2007. So I have been around for some time and seen LFS community ebb and flow.

Quote from Becky Rose :

You may not like it, but remember that this all started with a NEED for my league drivers to have people to practice against who didnt constantly crash them, as it had proved impossible in the run up to our Aston Cadet round for our drivers to get good uninterupted lines in a public server with 2 live admins. It wasn't working, too many people did not know rules about overtaking or rejoining into traffic.

We could go on debating, I could point out that a private testing server for a league doesnt let the drivers practice alongside other cars (we did have a private server after all). The point of the debate however, is the implication that drivers on CTRA1 are predominantly beginner.

I just went on CTRA1 and did a few races. I loitered around at the back and watched the drivers around me. There where, unfortunately, some incidents and a part of me thought, "Why did I bother making this is nothing is ever going to change." but also I saw some good racing. So I asked myself "Did I see more poor racing than I saw a year ago?".

The answer is, not once in any of the races did anyone join into me from the side of the road.

So yes, I do believe the CTRA has had some positive effect on overall driving. I guess I do have to believe that to make all the swet worthwhile, but i've experienced it and it's a noticeable change.

As for whether the server was full of noobs. Yes there where some, as there are on any public server. At the front meenwhile I saw a major league driver only running 3rd...

I stand by my point of view, I do not believe there is a lower standard of driving on CTRA1 than on any other public server.

I know I never said there was, and no I don't think there is.

Quote from Becky Rose :

I stand by my point of view, I do not believe there is a lower standard of driving on CTRA1 than on any other public server.

Yes you are right, it has had *some* positive effect. But its also not the end all be all either which sometimes overzealous enthusiasts can make it out be.

But I also think that having experienced, quality drivers (whether fast or slow or somewhere in between) out and about in general has a positive image; especially the fast (but not alien quck guys) because people ask "hey, why are you so fast" and the answer is "I don't screw around, I try and watch lines, pay attention to what I'm doing and don't go pellmelling around. Here, spectate and watch my lines for a lap or two". Another positive.

That same thing goes for the drifting community... there are those that just think spinning the car around, running into the things, or whinning about where all their hop-ups are is "drifting"; it's not and having the good drifters out in public for emulation purposes is a good thing.

Quote from Becky Rose :

So yes, I do believe the CTRA has had some positive effect on overall driving.

I think some of them are beginners, but some of them are new LFS drivers and being a new LFS driver doesn't automatically make you a n00b, begginer, newb, or whatever.. just means you may have come over from another community. And with a ladder system, everyone has to start in the mail room and work their way up so yes, you are going to get more "n00bish" issues in your lower servers than you might elsewhere. Also note that there is 'something', how meaningful that is depends on your view point, and when something is "on the line" then there is always going to be more friction, more contention. Thats just the way of competition.

Quote from Becky Rose :

The point of the debate however, is the implication that drivers on CTRA1 are predominantly beginner.

I was not only running 3rd! I ran into second a few times, and won a couple races.

About the quick, but not alien fast guys, I'm starting to find myself in that class, more the slower end, but it's still awkward, because I don't think about how I drive really, I just go out and do it.

The CTRA receives more traffic, so you're bound to get "more" beginners purely by statistics. I think Becky that you're taking this too personally/seriously TBH, it was a rash complaint about incidents that happen everywhere, not JUST the CTRA. I realize it read that way, but read between the lines... It is looked upon as the "beginner" CTRA server... because it IS, even though everyone is welcome.

I dunno, I think the fast people have different ideas of the server, than others. Myself, being in the top 3, thought the server was alright, had 1 race which went awry, but that was a pure racing incident. Where as some other UKCT folk, were saying how awful it was. If you look also at who has all the complaints, it does seem to be the mid to back of the field drivers with the complaints.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

If you look also at who has all the complaints, it does seem to be the mid to back of the field drivers with the complaints.

That's probably because the racing there is very different from the racing up front. I've experienced that myself a few times.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

The CTRA receives more traffic, so you're bound to get "more" beginners purely by statistics. I think Becky that you're taking this too personally/seriously TBH, it was a rash complaint about incidents that happen everywhere, not JUST the CTRA. I realize it read that way, but read between the lines... It is looked upon as the "beginner" CTRA server... because it IS, even though everyone is welcome.

I agree =)

Race 1 is a beginner server. True There are issues present, but it's not the the servers fault and there are systems in place to help these drivers learn a bit about racecraft. There is more that can be done though, but not from Becky's end, she has provided us with an awesome licensing package with great racing to be had, on any server. I have never had too much of a problem on Race1 myself.

Quote from obsolum :

That's probably because the racing there is very different from the racing up front. I've experienced that myself a few times.

It is different in the midfield, it's not down to the servers, it's down to the drivers. I have heard these discussions on the CTRA subforum for weeks now. No system in the world will help drivers if they do not want to learn.

Quote from Intrepid :

I am not condoning wrecking, but in real life if you are

1. not up to speed
2. not 'aggressive'

you will get destroyed, especially in tin top racing...

what you get is guys who want to make real strong moves, and if you not ready for it, or just wimping around you will get engulfed.

You will notice that the fast drivers, that are blamed for all this, once they are all racing together there isn't any major contact, nor is there much complaint between them. The reason for this is because they are used to it. It's how you gotta be....it's the same in real life.... and that's a testament to how good racing in LFS is.

I am in no way saying to win you should wreck people, but I am recognising the fact the the driver who is indecisive, not aggressive, and non-ballsy enough can cause as much carnage as anyone else. Of course they look blameless, but it's something I see time and time and time again. The driver that is indecisive and unpredictable is the one that can cause all the trouble for themselves.

When your racing someone who you know is fast, decisive, and as aggressive as you the racing is clean, and respectful. Contact may be made, but that happens. that;s how it happens in real life, and that's the way it happens in LFS!

sometimes ppl don't understand how much of a nuisance they are.

I would have to see a reply of your races to decide an opinion on your specific situation.... but sometimes you just gotta turn it on. Be decisive, go for it... that's what makes racing fun...

That sounds like how it is in btcc or dtm, which I find not very good racing series, I prefer more polite and friendly racing, but hard to find as today everyone seem to have this pitbull attitude of mineminemine.

Luckily there are places where you still can find good old style friendly racing

and you should use caution when attempting to pass someone when you don't know their skill level (and if a bad driver somehow catches up to you, maybe make sure he isnt directly behind you). I know some people are good and i'll drive very aggressivly and they'll do the same to me and we dont crash, because like intrepid said, we're used to it and know how not to crash. You can't drive the same against everyone and expect to finish a race. It's experience, its reaction time, its making intelligent decisions based on the limitations of yourself and your car, and the cars/environment around you.

Quote from Becky Rose :

You've all forgotten what it was like before the STCC public servers first started, and LFS culture after an accident was to rejoin the track without looking, and barely anybody knew overlap regulations when overtaking. Most drivers now know these rules...

Just to back you up here and as a thank you for your hard work, I am one of those drivers who now know these rules

Quote from Intrepid :

I am not condoning wrecking, but... <snip>

Funny that that should set off my karter alert :rolleyes:

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Not sure I agree totally with the elitist mentality.

If you don't know who you're dealing with you use something called caution and common sense. I would bet the bigger problem is the faster drivers thinking they own the track on a BEGINNER server. Wow, respect.

Brake 10m earlier if you have to, to ensure that you don't wreck someone you're not used to racing with. Good drivers are not the ones who can only race at one pace constantly, using muscle memory along with 4 others of the same caliber... The good drivers are the ones that can think outside their little world and realize that not every driver has mastered that combo, and use some thought to make sure they don't wreck someone else's race. If you rear end someone, it's your own fault - period. Just like IRL. If you're inches behind someone you haven't "scouted", why would you be on the same line going into a braking zone? That's not using your head at all. If you have skill, use a modified line and go around them when it's safe. It's not very bright to expect everyone (esp on a beginner server) to drive just like you.

Bingo There's no excuse for rear-ending someone.

Unless it's Jeff, and you've been looking at his arse for so long, you just wanted a touch of it? ... :hide:

Quote from Becky Rose :

Any and all suggestions that the CTRA 1 server is populated by a higher portion of new and inexperienced drivers is bullshit.

CTRA 1 allows new drivers, unlike our tier 2 servers, but that does nto make them magically appear.

We have some very fine and talented drivers who enjoy racing on Race 1 because they enjoy the cars. A glance at the CTRA lap records will show you that.

The CTRA system, in its current and former guise, has done more than any other server to change the attitude of 'gamers' and clean up the sport of simulated racing.

To call it a newb server is frankly insulting and wholly innacurate.

You've all forgotten what it was like before the STCC public servers first started, and LFS culture after an accident was to rejoin the track without looking, and barely anybody knew overlap regulations when overtaking. Most drivers now know these rules, sure not everyone follows them but that's why we have the only advanced 24/7 admin reporting system in sim racing.

Thank you.

I dunno. I always thought of the LEVEL one server as a "newbie" server. I don't see where that's insulting. In fact, it's a good thing.
Sure you're going to have people out there not having a clue about what they're doing, but gee whiz? Is everyone that gets a S-2 license supposed to be an instant "cyber-schumaker"? They need to start somewhere don't they? And the way y'all have things set-up, CTRA 1 is perfect for that

Oh and please, Don't remind us what it was like before you came along. I mean, you wasn't there, how would you know? If you wanna know the truth, I'd gladly like to go back to the days of tinted windows and out of control LX-6s. Everyone knew everyone. There was tons more patience with people. It was really nice. Trust me on this. It was a lot better then than what it is now.
And no, I'm not trying to shoot you down or anything like that. I think you and Sam and y'alls bunch have done a lot of good overall,
It's just that you sort of come off sounding like if it wasn't for you, LFS would be nothing or something like that.

While racing HAS changed from back in the day, this was to be expected with the popularity of LFS lately.
There are so many non sim people trying and buying LFS expecting GT4 or the like while not knowing the first thing about vehicle physics and dynamics.

However, every time I'm about to give up on LFS, something like this happens.
The mpr is one of the best races I had in a while...and it was a 1v1 at that.
While it may not look exciting, it was a rush to drive it and kept me on the edge of my seat most of the race. That's the whole beauty of LFS.
(Please don't judge the lap times as I'm quite rusty with the FOX)

P.S. CTRA has only done good things to LFS. IF it wasn't for it, we'd all still be doing GTR on AS...something I wont miss for a very long time.

one of the best things about CTRA is taking the decision to restart away from people. i know its anoying when the field gets wrecked at t1 but i hate it when your on lap 9 of a 10 lap race and drivers join the server and straight away start spamming for a restart, occasionally theres enough of them to get one, in one race there were two cars which had been fighting for first place right from the start and were on the last lap when the race got restarted.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

I would bet the bigger problem is the faster drivers thinking they own the track

That is 100% true. If you are fast, then pass the slower ones and stop complaining. Yesterday ctra 1 had these elitist pricks racing. Im not saying names, but I bet you recognize him with the line 'turtles on track'. One with a silver licence, and got reported for ignoring blue flag. I hope he gets whooped good.

An another incident (not on ctra)
One anonymous driver was 1-2 seconds faster than me. Still, he couldnt pass me because I drove a defensive line, and nailed all apexes before long straights. Yep, he was mad as hell allright. Driving a defensive line is not blocking is it? It is allowed to change racing line once and go back (though I didnt do this). He was faster than me, but still he cant pass me? And according to him, "I suck!"

Quote :

Oh and please, Don't remind us what it was like before you came along. I mean, you wasn't there, how would you know?

I think you are missunderstanding what I meant to say, I never claimed to have single handedly fixed LFS' online driving. I joined after S2 was already out, patch Q I think, but creating the STCC was not the first thing I did.

The league, the public servers and later the X-System were all created out of a need for them, I saw the need and I filled the gap. I'm not taking credit for LFS' user base, heck if I was responsible for the growth of LFS then i'd be asking Scawen for my royalty cheque! .

When I joined LFS, up until I started running the public servers, I experienced a time in LFS when standards of racing where quite low on public servers, and the feeling of everyone was that if you wanted good racing you joined a league. I saw that as an opportunity, and have tried to improve public racing for everyone.

I dont think that is arrogant, or loosing sight of what LFS was like in the 'good old days'.

My only regret is not yet having successfully populated our single seater 2 tier. Something I shall return too after BnJ is revamped.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Any and all suggestions that the CTRA 1 server is populated by a higher portion of new and inexperienced drivers is bullshit.

CTRA 1 allows new drivers, unlike our tier 2 servers, but that does nto make them magically appear...

...To call it a newb server is frankly insulting and wholly innacurate.

Quote from Becky Rose a week previous, discussing the Race1 server :

S1 does allow 32 cars to start. We just are not stupid enough to enable 32 car grids on our entry level server. No offence, but you guys still crash on 28% of the laps you try to complete

Hell of an improvement in just a week, I'd say.

Even tornados dont twist words like that...

CTRA Race 2, unlike other public servers, has relatively few if any new drivers. CTRA Single Seater 2 would be the same (if it had any drivers at all). However, CTRA Race 1 - I believe - does not have a higher proportion of new drivers when compared to other public servers.

People come into the game and play on other servers just as much as they play on the CTRA servers. The fact that they cannot access our higher servers does not effect the proportion of racers on CTRA 1.

Just like Cone Dodgers and Redline we feel 32 cars is not appropriate on a public server without an entry qualification, because of the proportion of new and less experienced drivers. This isn't specific to CTRA 1 - all the big server operators feel this way, remember Paul's hair pulling after patch X and 32 cars was launched? Poor lad learned the hard way - we learned from watching it and didnt repeat that mistake.

The fact that our second tier servers have an entry qualification allows us to run 32 cars at once and expect to still get good quality racing. Again we're not unique in this as CD do the same last I looked.

So despite the twister, I remain unconvinced that CTRA 1, as any other public server that has more than 5 racers on, has more new and inexperienced drivers than any other public server. It does not, all server operators are in the same boat. This is WHY the CTRA exists, to give the experienced drivers somewhere else to race in a pickup and play 'I feel like racing tonight' way.

One of the biggest problems we find on CD1 is as soon as someone gets S2 they look at the Cars, pick a GTR, do 3 laps offline then look for a busy server online to try out their new skills.

CD1 is normally the fullest, so they join to try out.

You can always tell the Newbies as they go out for half a lap then teleport to the pits Over and Over again.

We also find that if you are hard on them (Admin Wise) they soon learn.

LFS, like all games has a high rate of joiners to leavers and only when there is new content do we get the old players back.

You can also tell when the content is getting stale as the number of S2 servers is far more than the number of players. At the time of writing this post there was 634 S2 Servers yet 236 players, so almost 3 servers each.

This is one of the biggest problems as i see it with LFS. As well as attracting new players we need to keep the old ones but the devs earn nothing more from all us S2 players until S3 comes out so they have no real incentive to give us new content, but without it we lose players.

I think all us who run the larger server setups will find that as soon as the next major update arrives having a few newbies will not be a problem at all.

Quote from Becky Rose :

I think you are missunderstanding what I meant to say, I never claimed to have single handedly fixed LFS' online driving. I joined after S2 was already out, patch Q I think, but creating the STCC was not the first thing I did.

The league, the public servers and later the X-System were all created out of a need for them, I saw the need and I filled the gap. I'm not taking credit for LFS' user base, heck if I was responsible for the growth of LFS then i'd be asking Scawen for my royalty cheque! .

When I joined LFS, up until I started running the public servers, I experienced a time in LFS when standards of racing where quite low on public servers, and the feeling of everyone was that if you wanted good racing you joined a league. I saw that as an opportunity, and have tried to improve public racing for everyone.

I dont think that is arrogant, or loosing sight of what LFS was like in the 'good old days'.

My only regret is not yet having successfully populated our single seater 2 tier. Something I shall return too after BnJ is revamped.

Maybe giving free FJR to nat B? This would give those ppl something to race on 2 over 1.

Quote :

I would bet the bigger problem is the faster drivers thinking they own the track

Quote :

That is 100% true. If you are fast, then pass the slower ones and stop complaining.

That isn't even remotely true you guys are just talking rubbish, I race with the top guys of LFS as often as I can and I never have any issues with them. I think you'll often find the problem to be the slower drivers who just can't take the shame of being overtaken, and make it infinitely impossible to overtake cleanly and safely.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Any and all suggestions that the CTRA 1 server is populated by a higher portion of new and inexperienced drivers is bullshit.

CTRA 1 allows new drivers, unlike our tier 2 servers, but that does nto make them magically appear...

...To call it a newb server is frankly insulting and wholly innacurate.

Id have to disagree with you on that and I'm rather puzzled as to why you find it insulting, I like many others assumed it was the entry level to the whole system so having a higher amount of beginner racers is surely just another outcome because of that?

I don't really bother racing there any more because I've had my fair share of bad drivers ploughing into me, and of course this has nothing to do with the system but its also something it cannot save me from.

Quote from Rooble :

That isn't even remotely true you guys are just talking rubbish, I race with the top guys of LFS as often as I can and I never have any issues with them.

I think you misunderstood the context. I'm certainly not saying "all" fast drivers are like that, that would be silly. I am talking in the context of these types of situations, not making a blanket statement.

Let's take you for example: you're a fast driver. Do you plow into the back of slower drivers regularly? Do you ride the ass of a driver you don't know and/or are suspicious of going into a braking zone assuming they have an identical braking point and then blame them when you take them out?

Quote :

I don't really bother racing there any more because I've had my fair share of bad drivers ploughing into me, and of course this has nothing to do with the system but its also something it cannot save me from.

Thats what server 2 is for. At the end of the day no public server will be as good as a league race - at least, not every time anyway. League racing is where the best racing is although i've found myself that they can be very dissorganised and frustrating if drivers who are not up to standard are not dealt with. What the CTRA servers do is provide something in between public racing and pickup racing. We do deal with the poor drivers and we do provide exclusive public space to our top drivers. So yes, it can save you from being hit by other cars.

The reason I find the premise that CTRA 1 is for newbie drivers a bit off is because it undermines the drivers who race there, most of whome are exceptionally good. As a server CTRA 1 is no more exclusive than any other public LFS server, except that it has added functionality. To say that attracts newbie racers when other servers dont is just plain WRONG.

If CTRA was the only server operator in LFS then this sentiment would be correct, but it isnt, and I believe CTRA 1 is on the whole occupied by a good bunch of drivers.