We have argued many times on this forum about racing in LFS compared to real life an so on...

And it is slowly appearing, to me anyway, that LFS, in online racing terms, is being moulded into a sim that doesn't represent 'real' racing, but more so what people 'think' real racing should be like. So like something with in itself not connected with reality.

This has nothing t do with physics or whatever, but on a personal experience I come across so many odd comments from people that bare NO resemblance to actual real life racing.

For example, I came out of the pits mid race, caught the leader who was a lap ahead of me, and I thought... right I still need to pick me braking points and so on... so I will sit behind this guy and chill...... I won't pester him or anything like that...

anyway race finishes... and this guy says I would have been black flagged??? what for I ask.....?? 'Disturbing Him'...!!! lol well I never.... all I did was drive around the circuit... made no attempt to overtake... or even touch him, and this person is telling me that in RL I would black flagged.... which completely ISN'T THE CASE!

Anyway, my point is this....

Is LFS, especially raciing online, developing into a real life sim, or a representation of what people would like real racing to be like?

I race LFS in EXACTLY the same way as i DO in real life, because I respect that sim.

And I have only ever been banned ONCE.... and that was fro being a dumbass.... I thought the race was over for some reason and wrecked the leaders coming out of the pits.... but I have never been banned for racing, yet on several occasions people have complained!

Just the way people race, the expectations they have during a race... it just isn't the same in reality. I can spot real life racers a MILE OFF in LFS because they are the ones who race like what I would expect in a real race.

I am not having a go at these people who I consider not really treating lFS as a rl sim, but noticing what is happening.

In this case, that driver was wrong. Of course you can follow who you like, as long as you weren't right up behind him etc.

But to say that "LFS is being moulded..." in that direction is wrong, and unfair on LFS/Scavier. The problem isn't LFS, and it isn't Scavier. It's the players - people who think that they know about racing and what's allowed, when in fact they are wrong.

I think ANY rule is okay on a server, as long as the rule is easy to see and obvious. The server owners can do what they like. If they say only overtake whilst travelling backwards else a ban, then fair enough, if they make that rule easy to find (displayed on joining, not a 'Read the Rules' message, which nobody in their right mind would bother doing).

But on an 'open' server, where there aren't Specific Regulations, people should obey a fixed set of racing rules that mirrors reality (within the bounds of computer hardware, where applicable).

Feel free to write 'The LFS Online Racing Rules', and get it on a website (a wiki to start with?). If it's publicised and sensible, it could a) be used by everyone and b) be endorsed by the LFS devs and linked to on websites or ingame.

Most of us don't race actual cars, what do you expect?

I think you should go back to karting. It's not like you paid for LFS anyway.

I think you have to realise that in RL racing competitiveness gets in the way, and "balls to the floor" racing comes in and things get ugly.

Think of LFS as F1 in the 1930's. With more top-hats.

Random kid on public server = racing in LFS?

When I said moulded, I didn't mean the devs, or the actual game was responsible for it... they really have zero control as to where the racing evolves to.

What I am trying to get at is the attitudes towards the actual racing in LFS, is slowly moving away from what I would call reality.

It's not even specific regulations, but for example. If i LUNGE someone from a mile back and make it stick like the driving god I am .... at least 5 times out of 10 the person I overtake will have a complaint about it. In reality that wouldn't be the case, not in my experience anyway.

I don't think many will disagree but there is definitely a difference between rl racers on LFS and everyone else. The racing is different. I am truly surprised when I battle someone in a titanic race and I find out they don't race for real. And that's because of this attitude difference.

I am trying to understand why there is this difference. From my experience it is there....

Thread title is misleading - I was expecting a steaming and pointless debate on physics, realism, player models and fire extinguishers. I'm a tad disappointed.

And there is no risk - so people drive differently. And no cost. So people drive differently. And most people are real racers or karters (or people who teach invalids how to get into karts), so the racing is different.

If you want to 'improve' it, write some rules and get them noticed. And/or start your own server.

And buy LFS.

I would say that people drive a lot less aggressively in LFS than in real life. So costs, and danger don't seem to be a huge factor. APart from the wreckers of course

Again this isn't about rules, but attitudes.

If I set my own server with my own rules I still can't changes people attitudes to racing, and how they behave. My rules wouldn't be much different to everyone elses. I can't make people race like how I want them. I am not gonna ban someone for being a pussy! lol

I treat LFS like I do in real life, because in real life you have to be hard and aggressive otherwise you get completely DESTROYED no matter what class you race in. But in LFS I continually get this feeling that people don't treat LFS as reality, they treat it how they 'want' reality to really be.

So we get continual complaints about perfectly normal driving standards etc...

I want to know why this is

Quote from Intrepid :

I am trying to understand why there is this difference. From my experience it is there....

Well, duh, because one is the real thing that requires tons of commitment and money and the other is a computer game every John Doe can use? They're in two completely different environments, yet you expect them to be the same. For online racing you have to invest much less time and effort, which kinda puts "not ruining the races of others" on a much higher priority. For the non-karters, at least (). In real life you have committed so much time to it, so being aggressive and winning pays off. In an online game on a public server, the ultimate goal, the prize, is to have good races and to have fun. A win outside of a league nets you nothing, so why ruin the fun of others by racing overly aggressive and risky? It just doesn't suit the environment and borders on being anti-social.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Well, duh, because one is the real thing that requires tons of commitment and money and the other is a computer game every John Doe can use?

I disagree. To be a quick driver, and gain success in LFS you have to spend money on a PC, and wheel, and then have to invest quite a lot of time practising, more so than you get the opportunity in real life. I am sure 75% of real racers who play LFS actual spend more time on LFS than they do in a real car. It's just that the investment of time isn't so recognisable.

Quote from AndroidXP :

which kinda puts "not ruining the races of others" on a much higher priority. For the non-karters, at least. ()

interesting indeed. So is there some kind of prejudice against karters, and real life racers?

Maybe this is what fuels the attitude divide.

Karters don't buy a kart to go paint-balling though (would be interesting - give a little twist of vehicular combat to it all) while pc gamers will play an FPS on their computers. Average gamer mentality is unavoidably different to average petrol-head mentality although there are some striking parallels.

People in LFS are a lot more aggressive than in real life in my experience (not just of competing, but also of watching).

I bet if you got the same number of people of all age ranges on the track as you do in a sim then you'd see examples of exactly the same behaviour. The fact that you can join a server at any age is probably the cause of most of the trouble we see.

In all walks of life I behave the way I'd like other people to behave. So I'm regularly disappointed by stupid people everywhere. On the track I like to think I'm considerate (since I can't be fast I need to at least look like I know what I'm doing!).
But there are always morons around. In public places you can't avoid them.

Quote from tristancliffe :

People in LFS are a lot more aggressive than in real life in my experience (not just of competing, but also of watching).

I think a lot of the incidents that seem aggressive have to do with the lack of peripheral vision (and the lack of incentive to actually use the look buttons since it won't hurt if you actually slam into each other) and occasionally the miscalculation of one's position in the space-time continuum of the game.

Quote from Dajmin :

I bet if you got the same number of people of all age ranges on the track as you do in a sim then you'd see examples of exactly the same behaviour. The fact that you can join a server at any age is probably the cause of most of the trouble we see.

That too - much like replying to people on public forums, you have to keep in mind that the poster/racer you have just had a conflict with can be some kid. That's one reason I prefer buddy-gaming. Just play with friends or people I know.

I find the problem to be a lack of concequence.

If I'm racing on track, it's a bloody rare opportunity, so I'm damn sure I'm careful not to wipe myself out and thus miss out on enjoyable racing. I also am painfully aware of the financial penalty of making mistakes.


LFS on the other hand, the next race is only 10 laps away.


My own solution to the problem would be to limit racers on my server to one car per day, and one set of tyres per 3 races. But this comes without thousands of issues of its own - getting wrecked by someone who doesn't give a damn would result in no opportunity for repair etc.

thankfully it isn't possible, so I don't have to make that choice yet.

Quote from z3r0c00l :

...

Erm, isn't Interpid talking about LFS racers being NOT aggressive enough?

Quote from tristancliffe :

People in LFS are a lot more aggressive than in real life in my experience (not just of competing, but also of watching).

I would disagree. As the guy said above me it's perception. In real life people will make lunges but there will be less crashes because of increased vision, and feel. The aggression IS THERE, but not so visible. for example I am probably more aggressive, or should I say 'positive' in real life and I have far less crashes... in fact I haven't even caused an accident while overtaking, apart from this time when I lunged some women at a bandit hire kart event... lololololololol bad MOVE!

When I run near, or at the front in lfs, people do seem to be much less aggressive. I have guys sit behind me for a whole race on several occasions within striking distance on not even think about making a move. This actually winds me up....lololol

but it's not really their driving that bugs me its the attitude, It's as if they are not racing as they would be in reality. And that for me defeats the point of LFS. There are these 3 guys spending a ridiculous amount of time, for probably very little money, trying to develop a sim and people aren't, in my opinion anyway, treating it as it should be. People are trying to form their own reality.

Is this wrong. NO OF COURSE NOT! But as an observation it does seem very interesting to see it develop, even if it winds me up!

I think the word aggressive isn't the right word and it's not what I am trying to get at.

What I am talking about is the way people treat LFS, and their attitudes towards it. I am asking this

do people treat LFS as a real life sim... OR do they treat it how they would like reality to be NOT what it actually is?

the amount of times I have been reported on CTRA is a JOKE.... only sanctioned once which I fully deserved...

Quote from Intrepid :

but it's not really their driving that bugs me its the attitude, It's as if they are not racing as they would be in reality. And that for me defeats the point of LFS. There are these 3 guys spending a ridiculous amount of time, for probably very little money, trying to develop a sim and people aren't, in my opinion anyway, treating it as it should be. People are trying to form their own reality.

Welcome to the beauty of ... DUN DUN DUN... virtual reality.

There are these 3 guys who are developing a sim and giving/selling it to people so they can use it as they like. Whereas that's not the case with real racing.

As mentioned before, the experience differs from server to server most of the time and it differs quite a bit between leagues and one-off quick races that you usually get by just joining any random server.

EDIT - this just in:

Quote from Intrepid :

I am asking this do people treat LFS as a real life sim... OR do they treat it how they would like reality to be NOT what it actually is?

I'd say they treat it as a game/sim for the most part and not as real life. Also there's the internet anonymity issue and the matter of ego. It's easy to get hotheaded and pissed off at someone who isn't face-to-face with you and when you're on your own in a room in front of a computer screen it's easy to stay by your hurt ego and insist you are right.

In a sim, with very equal cars, and lots and lots of track time (and hence familiarity) it's often for quick people to be very very similar in speed, braking points, styles etc. Which is why it's a lot more common to have two cars running together with little action.

In real life, you can't drive a track for 1000 laps in practice, and karts/cars aren't totally equal. Which means more 'lunges'. But when passing happens in LFS the lack of consequences mean they are more aggressive/silly.

In decent league racing, where points DO matter and people are more serious, then the racing is surprisingly similar to reality.

And don't compare kart racing to car racing, as it's very different at all levels of car racing.

Quote from tristancliffe :

People in LFS are a lot more aggressive than in real life in my experience (not just of competing, but also of watching).

Single Seaters are a bit different to bumper Karts.

From my very limited rental kart championship experience they were a LOT more agressive, but i'm sure if it was there £12k car which crumpled like a polysterene cup upon trying to push someone wide, they'd be a lot more considerate.

lol your experience of rental karts is as far away from proper karting as single seaters.... but this again is not the point. Once again 'karting' is raised in a discussion when it is not intended.

AFAIK your experience of real racing is in Karts - Whereas Tristan's is in Single Seaters, with little/no sponsorship.

You both have different opinions (ie you think RL is more agressive, whereas Tristan thinks it isn't) and you both raise valid points, it's just that the way your talking "real life racing" is a little vague.