If only real cars could set gears in 0.001 steps.. Sadly the ratio of available cogs is much more limited. Its one of those small things that I'm just mentioning just in case its not on the long 'to do' list yet

It's sort of on the list ... people have suggested having less "adjustability" for the street cars, which I tend to agree with, especially when considering the UF1000, XFGTi and the XRGT. It would make races more interesting if drivers had cars that were more closely matched, imho. I can't remember the last time I drove a hatchback out of the box that had a fully adjustable anything! Except the radio...

Maybe smaller increments within the same range of adjustment would make setting up cars a bit simpler and quicker too. I've never noticed 0.001 of anything making a difference in a race - except 0.001 seconds of course.

Nnnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooooooooooooo!



Gearing on road cars is usually given to 0.01 accuracy in technical specifications, so I suppose it could be changed to that, although I'm not convinced it would actually make any difference. If you are typing in the number, how often do you go to three decimal places anyway? I never bother.

I suppose in a way that is also an argument in support of the idea, the last decimal place doesn't really give us any further control over gearing, since it's already fine enough without it.

Well what I mean is the amount of cogs on the cogwheels makes a 'big' difference.

a cog wheel transmission with 40 and 41 cogs is a step of 0.025. For a step of 0.001 to work you need one 1000 tooth cogwheel and a 1001 cog wheel which would have the diameter of a lorry tyre if the cogs need to be any bit strong

I don't really know how gears work but I bet you can't have 40/41 40/40 40/39 as the distance from center to center would be different so for one gear you might have something like this:

40/40 = 1.000
38/42 = 0.905
36/44 = 0.818
34/46 = 0.739

just as an example.

Quote from tristancliffe :

In real life you could have the ratio's made to any diameter, and so have a resolution of 0.000001 if you wanted. But it'd be ludicrously expensive.

Diameter doesn't determine the ratio, amount of cogs do.

Quote from vari :

Diameter doesn't determine the ratio, amount of cogs do.

It's pretty much the same thing. Bigger diameter = more teeth in cogs in general. You can use both when calculating the ratios...

How about giving us the cogs to choose from instead of those numbers? So that LFS would have some table of cog diameter values and then a slider to alter the ratio. So basically it would change the teeth count of the cogs. This would be more "realistic" as in real life the steps aren't exactly .25 or .10. But very little effect on anything...

Should the road cars even have changeable gearbox ratios? (nooooo!)

Quote from Hyperactive :

It's pretty much the same thing. Bigger diameter = more teeth in cogs in general. You can use both when calculating the ratios...

How about giving us the cogs to choose from instead of those numbers? So that LFS would have some table of cog diameter values and then a slider to alter the ratio. So basically it would change the teeth count of the cogs. This would be more "realistic" as in real life the steps aren't exactly .25 or .10. But very little effect on anything...

Should the road cars even have changeable gearbox ratios? (nooooo!)

Perhaps the the road cars should have a choice of a few gearboxes? Short ration, Medium ratio and Long ratio or something like that? ie. Each gearbox has predefined ratios that you cannot alter.

Quote from Hyperactive :

Should the road cars even have changeable gearbox ratios? (nooooo!)

Yes they should, but it shouldn't be in 0.001 increments or 0.01 increments or even 0.1 increments. It should be like real life where I basically have stock ratios in the tranny and I can choose my differential ratio like my crappy factory 3.53 gears in my Tacoma or 3.83, 4.10 (which is suppose to be factory, damn previous owner ), 4.37 (stock w/ auto), or 4.53. Same with a 90's generation Mustang. Isn't the diff ratios available 3.08 stock with 3.53 and 3.83 aftermarket? The road cars should have only certain ratios available like you would get in aftermarket. I'd go with shock and spring settings this way as well with road cars. Hard, medium, and soft settings or equivelent for shocks and springs. You can't customize as fine in real life as we can in LFS.

I don't know how this works with FWD, though, without a rear end differential.

Of course, race cars are different and you should be able to set the ratios to whatever you want. They would be custom fabricated or custom purchased.

*Edit: Thanks axus, it took me 6 minutes longer to post, LOL.

Quote from Hyperactive :

It's pretty much the same thing. Bigger diameter = more teeth in cogs in general. You can use both when calculating the ratios...

I still say that cogs are the determining factor and not the diameter I said that only because 0.000001 differences (mentioned by tristan) can't be achieved. Changing the diameter by 0.000001 doesn't change the ratio at all.

Nitpicking though so nevermind.

It is the whole answer in this case.

For example my camshaft never goes out of sync (it'd break things) due to normal wear of the cam gear. For every revolution of the camshaft the crankshaft turns twice and not 2.000001 times.

Like Vari said ,it's just about teeths.

I agree with most of what's been said here as well. Right now the road cars are far too customizable. I'd prefer to see a limited selection of transmissions and rear end gears, along with much more limited suspension setup. The nearly infinite gears and shocks/sway bars/etc that we have now are very unrealistic. Limiting these changes should help make the racing a bit closer and would make it easier for newbies (and those of us who hate mucking with setups) to get cars setup properly.

Never under-estimate the power of the gear ratio.

However cars gearboxes aren't as simple as motorcycle or push-bike gears, where you can just count the teeth on two different sprockets.

Hence why car's gears are expressed as simplified ratios rather than the actual teeth.

Maybe an accuracy of 2 Digits is enough, because you wont even notice a difference of 0.001 in gear ratio....but I like the feature to tune the gearbox exactly to what you want it. And about realism...these are mostly fictional cars, so who can say, that there is no aftermarket gearbox with all ratios possible? I don't have the slightest problem with the way things are right now...

Quote from ellis_dee :

Maybe an accuracy of 2 Digits is enough, because you wont even notice a difference of 0.001 in gear ratio....but I like the feature to tune the gearbox exactly to what you want it. And about realism...these are mostly fictional cars, so who can say, that there is no aftermarket gearbox with all ratios possible? I don't have the slightest problem with the way things are right now...

You'd need gears that cost more than the car right now to have this level of adjustability for one thing. Beginner drivers generally struggle with setups for another, so this may flatten the learning curve. Adjustability to 0.01 is too much aswell. LFS tries to be as realistic as possible, so this is a logical step in the development of setups. If you wish for that level of adjustability on gearing, the race cars will still be there.

Well, it is almost physically impossible in real life. The gear ratio depends on the amount of teeth on coghweel 1 vs cogwheel 2. The cogs need to be strong so they can't be too small. This means that in the space of a gearbox you can't have cogwheels with all that many teeth.

It would be a bit tricky to find out what is and isn't possible perhaps, so something more simplified like steps of 0.05 or 0.1 would be the easy thing to do.

I think GPL uses real gear ratios which might give some idea about the steps encountered.

Just out of interest, how much do they alter gear ratios in F1, GTR and smaller FWD racing classes? And in rally cars? I mean do they mainly change the rear/front diffs (not sure what this is in english, the main ratio...) or do they actually change the actual cog couples inside the transmission box? Or do they change the whole box?

And maybe the clutch could be quite a lot weaker in the racing cars. Meaning that the only way to have good start would be to use the clutch, like in GPL. High revs and "sliding" the clutch = race finished So getting the car moving could be harder too. And in case of spinning you would need to push down the clutch or the engine turns off. And without starter...race ovah!

Heh, a joke: FXR is belt-driven awd

Quote from Hyperactive :

Just out of interest, how much do they alter gear ratios in F1, GTR and smaller FWD racing classes? And in rally cars? I mean do they mainly change the rear/front diffs (not sure what this is in english, the main ratio...) or do they actually change the actual cog couples inside the transmission box? Or do they change the whole box?

Well often they re-engineer the entire tranmission to whatever ratios and final drive setting they wish. In F1 engineering for example, whatever ratios they want to achieve they simply engineer into their gearbox, just like we can in LFS. I don't see our setup options for transmission as being a brand-name gearbox with limited options, I see it as an opportunity to choose what I think the best ratio will be for that car. This makes me the engineer in LFS and that's what I prefer over choosing a few settings from a limited range of options. In some race series the regulations would specify a type of box or what mods were allowed, and in this circumstance a limited range of options may be very acceptable. In the pure race cars in LFS I think the current system is valid. For the road cars or future restrictive classes (that may or may not evolve) some restricted tranmission would not be unrealistic.

Uh. aren't racing cars custom engineered? wouldn't it make more sense to have the fine tuning to replicate the differing ratios that occur between
the different race car teams?
As for the road cars? Personally, I think this is a non issue.
I mean think about it. Just what are the "proper" gear ratios for the
FXO? Anybody have the manufacturers specs on that? And if the
gear choices were to be limited like so many seem to want, What if the
gear choices offered in the game are actually "wrong"?
I mean if someone actually did make an FXO, would the gear ratios still be the same as what would be offered for the FXO in the game?

For example, say everyone built a Cadillac Eldorado (fins, not the N.Star crap)
from scratch. I mean milling the block and everything. You really think that everyone will have the same identical set of gear ratios? Espescially if
you take into account the ± for the tolerance. Like if I was to mill a sprocket with "X" amount of teeth at a certain diameter. the next gear
I mill may be off by .0001whatever yet because of the tolerance, it
will still work. wouldn't that slight offset change the exact, THE EXACT
ratio by just a little bit? say by .0001? So wouldn't the fine tuning we have
now more accurately simulate the slight variations that occur with production?

But enough of that.... I was hoping this thread was about using flaming trash cans instead of tires. Who really cares about .0001?

Quote from Gunn :

Well often they re-engineer the entire tranmission to whatever ratios and final drive setting they wish. In F1 engineering for example, whatever ratios they want to achieve they simply engineer into their gearbox, just like we can in LFS.

But some of them have a CNC manufacturing facilities with them at paddock (?) to quickly manufacture stuff. And I guess they do a lot of pre simulations to get the ratios correct for the circuit. What I am after is that if the pre-made ratios don't match well, do they just replace the whole gearbox to other alternative (having couple of spare boxes with different ratios) or do they change individual parts or do they make new parts to make it better? Are they able to chance the ratios quickly in steps of .1 or .05? And I guess this unique among racing series, how do they change ratios in Nascar, Cart or in GTR, where they don't have that much money to spend? The premade boxes can cause some problems if the track is wet (different speeds in corners and slower max speed) and some moderate aero settings can really change the ratios needed. So what I'm saying that it is possible to make a gearbox with the exactly desired ratios but when they are testing can they change the ratios easily...

Quote from Gunn :

I don't see our setup options for transmission as being a brand-name gearbox with limited options, I see it as an opportunity to choose what I think the best ratio will be for that car. This makes me the engineer in LFS and that's what I prefer over choosing a few settings from a limited range of options. In some race series the regulations would specify a type of box or what mods were allowed, and in this circumstance a limited range of options may be very acceptable. In the pure race cars in LFS I think the current system is valid. For the road cars or future restrictive classes (that may or may not evolve) some restricted tranmission would not be unrealistic.

Agreed. But even if it possible in many series to have special gearboxes they don't actually have them because it is not so big deal and costs too much. In LFS we don't need to worry about costs but just that it is possible in real life shouldn't make it an option in LFS as in real life they don't have individual gearboxes for every track. It is just the conflict between not being able to use slicks in road cars = restricted series. But then fully modificable gearbox ratios?

I hate to say it, but we do need to limit, after all we are trying to recreate 'class' racing which in theory would limit the setup/custom components.

Even the new 'GP Masters' series is tightly controled to stop drivers (mansell prob ) spending money 'developing' the car.

Troy

I agree with Gunn, sometimes LFS allows us to do something that isn't technically possible in the real world but that isn't necessarily a bad thing imo as long as the major things like physics are realistic.

I agree with FlintFredstone that some limitations have to be made. Not as in his example for GpMasters as these are race class limitations, but limitations to the little cars as XF GTI XR GT etc... . As they are atm they seem to be normal vehicles that you take and race against each other. Don't think that in real life there could be that much you're gonna change on such a car (surely it would also be limited by regulations). The problem is that as these aren't real life cars, you don't have any specs that you just could put in. But you could guess, as for example the XF GTI is something like an old Ibiza or whatever you think it is, you could take approx. the same setup as the real life car. So that not much should be changed in the setup. Or you could make 2 classes: One limited class (with limited setup options) and one unlimited (as we have now.) Could make this an server side option, wether you like the one or the other.

As an example when the V8 series came to Bathurst (How I would love this track in LFS) this year the teams had 3 diffs to choose from. This meant they only a 3 different final drive ratio's to pick from. So even full blow race cars have setup limitations depending on race series.

Not sure how many other series are like this though

Quote from M.Mos :

Like Vari said ,it's just about teeths.

so whats better.. jaws.. or gramps?
(most random post i have EVER made lol)