Quote from Nordic :

What about do you guys think about engine brake torque? I think the brake torque is insignificant on all cars, especially on the race cars. I mean there is no need to blip the throttle while downshifitng to keep the rear stable, which makes driving easy. Especially the race cars with assumed high engine compression ratios and low inertia drive train including engine should have some noticeable brake torque. My street car seems to have more of it. I'm not saying it is wrong, i'm just wondering.

About clutch heat:
I heard many people whining about they can't drive too laps without overheating the clutch. Seriously if you experience this you do something terrible wrong while driving. From the first lap on with the new patch i didn't manage to overheate my clutch, only on puporse.

Exactly. Maybe it's just me, but the inertia of the engines does still seem at bit low?

What I Think about X30(31)

* You gave what i think could be one of the best combos ( FBM + BL GP ) to the Demo Racers. I Think you should have given UF1 instead of FBM... and taken XRT out of their hands, i think it was a wise moove, because XRT was the reason why 50% of demo racers were happy having only demo and were not willing to get S1/S2 soon... so that's DEV's work for free...
*I Think the clutch overheats too quickly... specially in the FBM if you use the clutch in every gear change...
* I use wherels, and change gears using the 2 mouse buttons ( thre mouse stays in a position wehere a gear leaver(?) would be in a real car ), after X30, sometimes it simply don't shift... i have to press the buttons harder...if i chenge using wheel buttons, it happens less... but still happens...

*sigh*
You're NOT supposed to use the clutch AT ALL in the FBM, apart from the race start.

Quote from Dudles :

What I Think about X30(31)

* You gave what i think could be one of the best combos ( FBM + BL GP ) to the Demo Racers. I Think you should have given UF1 instead of FBM... and taken XRT out of their hands, i think it was a wise moove, because XRT was the reason why 50% of demo racers were happy having only demo and were not willing to get S1/S2 soon... so that's DEV's work for free...

Any please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think part of the deal with the FBM was that it was supposed to be in the demo.

Quote from AndroidXP :

*sigh*
You're NOT supposed to use the clutch AT ALL in the FBM, apart from the race start.

True but I still prefer using it on both upshifts (without flkat shifting ofcourse) and on downshifts (with blip). The reason about using it on upshifts is that I'm having less mishifts like that. Allthough I drive like that, I haven't had any problems with clutch temprature while racing, but I agree it heats in FBM a bit more than in other cars

Quote from Mikkel Petersen :

Any please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think part of the deal with the FBM was that it was supposed to be in the demo.

Afaik, there has never been an official confirmation for this, so it's just a rumour. A founded one, considering that LFS is supposed to be part of some sort of race driver talent thingy, but still a rumour.

I was suffering mis-shifts in the FBM in 4th 5th & 6th until I read a comment from the dev. Basically, without using the clutch, you hold the gear change lever in (don't release) and when you blip the throttle it changes gear. This is different to the other cars and replicates the gear shift on the real FBM.

Quote from Linsen :

Afaik, there has never been an official confirmation for this, so it's just a rumour. A founded one, considering that LFS is supposed to be part of some sort of race driver talent thingy, but still a rumour.

My guess is that it is a smart plan for the dev's if infact this car/game are going to be used in conjunction for some upcoming tv show/driver search. The publicity will get more traffic, and give potential LFS buyers a much more focused view of what they are getting. Also whether or not they are going to be happy with buying LFS.

Its easy to imagine that many many traditional simmers and potential LFS buyers get turned away from LFS after trying the demo in its current state of drift-anarchy. It also certainly adds to why LFS is sometimes called the drift-sim.

Either way, very smart idea IMO.

Quote from srdsprinter :

... LFS is sometimes called the drift-sim.

oh noes!

Quote from UruNico2641 :

I'm a bit devastated... The game looks amazing now.. but they removed one of the most used cars in LFS history.. the XRT...

Success

Quote from Mikkel Petersen :

Any please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think part of the deal with the FBM was that it was supposed to be in the demo.

There's never been any official suggestion of this.

Quote from ajp71 :

There's never been any official suggestion of this.

Thank you, as I said, I had to be sure so I didn't start a rumour.
Somebody had just mentioned it here in the forums.

Quote from [RF]-art555 :

True but I still prefer using it on both upshifts (without flkat shifting ofcourse) and on downshifts (with blip). The reason about using it on upshifts is that I'm having less mishifts like that. Allthough I drive like that, I haven't had any problems with clutch temprature while racing, but I agree it heats in FBM a bit more than in other cars

Just hold the gear stick in the "shift up" position, and when you're ready to shift release the throttle a bit. When the gear shift is done, get back on the throttle and release the lever... Job done

Yes I know the XRT is still, there, and no I do not take LFS Demo for granted, in fact I'm very happy about how Scawen decided to give demo users the FB02 car..

and for some of you who have tried to make me buy it, Yes its not as easy as it is up in Europe or North America.. but I will get one. rest assured..

Somehow I don't get whats all that fuzz about the lifting is

I lift my right foot ever since LFS got the options to manually cut and blip, which was there since 0.1

I even edit the config file of games like rFactor or GTR2 to have to lift and blip on shifts

Quote from ATHome :

Somehow I don't get whats all that fuzz about the lifting is

I lift my right foot ever since LFS got the options to manually cut and blip, which was there since 0.1

I even edit the config file of games like rFactor or GTR2 to have to lift and blip on shifts

the point is, (apart from FBM) having to lift the foot while using paddles to shift is a step closer to what you have to do in regular h-shifted cars in RL but - as a whole - represents a system that is not existent in real life. therefore the new semi-automatic or seq-shifting is - at least for some drivers - a step back in terms of realism and immersion compared to the "old" tiptronic-style semi-auto, which was at least something that does exist in RL.

if the new semi-automatic is supposed to decrease the advantage of paddle-shifting over h-shifting, then I think there would be less ugly ways.
for example a RL tiptronic (not ferrari gearboxes for 20'000 $) still shifts slower than a good driver. why not slow the semi-automatic down a bit for H-shifted cars? but please don't model a smart-gearbox :-).

Quote from Bandit77 :

the point is, (apart from FBM) having to lift the foot while using paddles to shift is a step closer to what you have to do in regular h-shifted cars in RL but - as a whole - represents a system that is not existent in real life. therefore the new semi-automatic or seq-shifting is - at least for some drivers - a step back in terms of realism and immersion compared to the "old" tiptronic-style semi-auto, which was at least something that does exist in RL.

if the new semi-automatic is supposed to decrease the advantage of paddle-shifting over h-shifting, then I think there would be less ugly ways.
for example a RL tiptronic (not ferrari gearboxes for 20'000 $) still shifts slower than a good driver. why not slow the semi-automatic down a bit for H-shifted cars? but please don't model a smart-gearbox :-).

Question: Why you don't use the sequential gearstick every Momo, DFP and G25 has ?

Quote from Bandit77 :

the point is, (apart from FBM) having to lift the foot while using paddles to shift is a step closer to what you have to do in regular h-shifted cars in RL but - as a whole - represents a system that is not existent in real life. therefore the new semi-automatic or seq-shifting is - at least for some drivers - a step back in terms of realism and immersion compared to the "old" tiptronic-style semi-auto, which was at least something that does exist in RL.

if the new semi-automatic is supposed to decrease the advantage of paddle-shifting over h-shifting, then I think there would be less ugly ways.
for example a RL tiptronic (not ferrari gearboxes for 20'000 $) still shifts slower than a good driver. why not slow the semi-automatic down a bit for H-shifted cars? but please don't model a smart-gearbox :-).

They're not tiptronic gearboxes, of course. When you pull a paddle, you're instructing your LFS guy to operate the gear stick and clutch pedal, because you can't do that yourself, that is all. You've got a throttle pedal so LFS doesn't do anything with that since you can do it yourself.
I know the physical act of pulling a pedal and lifting is not THAT close to reality (although for the record, most sequential paddle operated gearboxes that allow you to keep your foot down still work better if you lift as you change gear), but I think LFS simply wants to make the player control as much of the operation of a car as their equipment allows them to. I certainly don't want auto-cut and slower clutch timing either

Quote :

Looking at the fact that Clutch Temp is in both F9 and F10 screens, might there be a way that its just there all the time?

Now that it is here, i would like to be able to see both the standings AND the CT, without letting go of the wheel, could it be an option like Frames/s and time or CT?

Could the CT be an actual temperature? Maybe even heat colour graded like tires?

Well, all from me for now... Click

If one wants to keep an eye on CT constantly, it's a problem, allright, but with a button on the wheel, you'll be able to get a glance evry once in a while when you feel like ?
Is that not good enough ?
Or maybe I missed your point ?

Quote from Astro [ BJRL ] :

If one wants to keep an eye on CT constantly, it's a problem, allright, but with a button on the wheel, you'll be able to get a glance evry once in a while when you feel like ?
Is that not good enough ?
Or maybe I missed your point ?

Well not entirely, driving a G25 i only have 2 buttons on my wheel, used for looking left and right, normally i look at the standings in the race, so i know, passing splits, how far i am in front/behind someone, and if i am gaining/loosing, but with the new CT i, at least in the beginning, need to see the CT, that means either i need to take my hands off the wheel to press a button, or only see the CT/Tire or CT/Damage, and what i really would like is to see is CT/Standings...

Maybe the standings could get shown, like times in qualifying, once you have passed start/finish for 5 or 10 seconds, like a real pitcrew would do in real racing

Well, all for now ... Click

Why do you NEED to see the clutch temp? If it isn't slipping you're okay, if it is then you must go slower. How does having the bar showing help? Are you extra nasty to your clutch until it's 25% hot, and then become nice to it? Can't you just be nice to it from the start, and not let it get above ~10%?

Quote from tristancliffe :

Why do you NEED to see the clutch temp? If it isn't slipping you're okay, if it is then you must go slower. How does having the bar showing help? Are you extra nasty to your clutch until it's 25% hot, and then become nice to it? Can't you just be nice to it from the start, and not let it get above ~10%?

For me to be able to check, what you are saying, i need to be viewing the F9 or F10, and then i don't see the standings... And yes i do know that its only a push of a button away, but clutch getting RED is a race killer, so it would be nice to know its getting critical BEFORE it gets critical...

Sure i would like to be nice to the clutch, and when watching it, i can see that i am in fact cooling it down, once i have set off, BUT, it would be nice to get a possibility of keeping an eye on it, without having to "press" for it, i don't look at it all the time, but glance at it like i did with tire temp, UNTIL i learned to keep tires cool enough to last a race distance... And during that, leaning to keep tires cold, i missed my standings... Again not looking at them all the time, but just to check once in a while... Normally i am too busy looking at the track/traffic As i should be...

Quote from tristancliffe :

Why do you NEED to see the clutch temp? If it isn't slipping you're okay, if it is then you must go slower. How does having the bar showing help? Are you extra nasty to your clutch until it's 25% hot, and then become nice to it? Can't you just be nice to it from the start, and not let it get above ~10%?

because if you see WHEN the CT is rising, you can be less agressive so you aren't gonna have slippery clutch during the race, but if you don't see the CT, you keep driving agressive untill it starts to slip... and WHEN it starts to slip, there's no way back... it stays slipping through the entire race, and it slips more and more each lap... so it's more like a prevention... if it's heating, you save the clutch by chilling out a bit when shifting,. and you will have a working clutch all the time... even lapping 1 or 2 seconds more... but if you get it slipping, in the end of the race you'll be lapping 10+secs more then your average laptime... in the end, the CT monitor could make the difference...

Quote from Cue-Ball :

I don't know if changing the inertia when under 500rpm is a good fix or not. I think that would just introduce more problems in the future. I'd rather see compression, flywheel weight, etc. accounted for.

Upon further thought it would work the opposite of the way I thought - my thought was to dynamically change the inertia constantly between firings to simulate compression at lower RPMs, but then theoretically inerita would drop dramtically during a compression, allowing the engine to stall during a compression, but then of course it's braking torque would actually decrease from the standpoint of the drivetrain; which is the opposite of what would really happen. So it wouldn't work anyway. It would from the perspective of the engine but not the rest of the system.

I don't think LFS simulates compression at this point, it treats the engine as a revolving mass with static properties. I forgot to test the G meter view when trying to stall the car last night to see if there is in fact pulses (firings).

There is plenty of inertia per se in the race cars, I think now it's just a limit of the current LFS engine simulation as far as I can tell. The engine's inertia isn't really the fundamental issue since that's really just based on some masses/velocities, and not the things that really cause the resistance in a real engine. Inertia would be the effective subject for an engine revolving with no compression resistance.

Quote from ATHome :

Question: Why you don't use the sequential gearstick every Momo, DFP and G25 has ?

even if I had one of these, THAT doesn't make the difference. having two pedals and an UP-DOWN-lever is still a tiptronic-layout. you don't seem to get my point.

Quote from sinbad :

When you pull a paddle, you're instructing your LFS guy to operate the gear stick and clutch pedal, because you can't do that yourself, that is all. You've got a throttle pedal so LFS doesn't do anything with that since you can do it yourself.

valid point. I see it the same way. and these are exactly the cases where realism (or better a certain kind of realism) and immersion can go apart. of course I see that immersion has got a huge subjective aspect. for ME, braking and downshifting while blipping in real life is almost as easy as braking and pulling the left paddle in LFS (while my LFS guy declutches and blips). but the way LFS is now, is mentally a lot different and would take me ages to learn.

Now - I know - you might say: yeah, but that's your fault, you have to learn.

LFS claims to be a simulation. So actually if you're able to do something in RL with your car you should be able to do it in LFS without days of practising. (oh damn, where does this lead me? )
So basically the adaption of h-shifting to a tiptronic-layout will always end up being a dexterity excersise that has nothing to do with driving skills and harms the immersion.

Is buying an H-shifter the solution? probably, but in the end the semi-automatic is thought for standard wheel users, so why cripple it like that? the correct consequence would then be to remove it - and the auto-box too... guess I mentioned that before.

so if you don't get my point (and chances are, because it's damn hard for me to actually make it... ) and do not understand all of my blablabla.
For me, the new system just doesn't FEEL right resp. less like driving a car in RL than it used to, which consequently decreases immersion. Probably very subjective, but that's just how it is. I don't like it at all.


topic clutchtemp indicator

I think the indicator, as it is at the moment, is not thought as an indicator you would have IRL (which you actually do NOT have) but more to compensate the feeling of a heated clutch, which you actually do not have in LFS.

So having the exact temperature is as unrealistic as having displayed 12 tyre temperatures in a hatchback while in race... BUT I don't care about these things left in, because if I don't want to I don't have to use / look at them.

You can keep the clutch cool no problem!!!

"I drive like a hack!" and I am having no problem with the clutch. I've missed shifts, spun, totally screwed up on numerous occasions, and my clutch is still good.
I shift with paddles and don't have a clutch peddle. Apart from having to relearn a bit of my shifting technique (It could take awhile) I am not having that big a problem.