Quote from sgt.flippy :

The analogue speedos are fine. It's just the readability of them that's awful. Always has been really, this was a complaint a long time before this patch. The digits needed to be bigger and easier to read. It's just now people HAVE to use the analogue ones, they take notice of it and complain.

A porsche only has digits every 50 kms/h:
http://blog.hishamrana.com/ima ... S-Dashboard-1600x1200.jpg

Exactly

It would be great to have a rewrite of the dynamic system that draws the dashboard to allow different styles to make a better difference between the cars. Eye candy, I know

Quote from BlueFlame :

Well, no offense, but you obviously haven't had much experience of racing, ask Tristan, you could guess 60mph and it be 90mph, it depends how low to the ground you are as that feels faster, it depends on teh air tempereature, and alot of things, when you are hotlapping even at an Indoor kart arena, what you thought felt like your fastest lap, usually wasn't.. That's just how racing is, you can sometimes feel that a lap is much faster when it isn't. Ok, that's not feeling SPEED as you are mentioning, but you can easily see the comparison. As for feeling speed in general, you are looking at a digi speedo, you know exactly your speed, but when feeling it, you are only going to be able to determine if you are going slow, mediumly or really fast, and even then, it alternates between different people as to what THEY think is fast.

i've raced a few karts in my time. nothing to brag about but i have raced and i have done well on the track. that's why i posted what i posted. so taking that onboard, i would say that your assumption of my RL track experience would not be that accurate. i think my point just flew over your head m8.

Quote from BlueFlame :

Well, no offense, but you obviously haven't had much experience of racing, ask Tristan, you could guess 60mph and it be 90mph, it depends how low to the ground you are as that feels faster, it depends on teh air tempereature, and alot of things, when you are hotlapping even at an Indoor kart arena, what you thought felt like your fastest lap, usually wasn't.. That's just how racing is, you can sometimes feel that a lap is much faster when it isn't. Ok, that's not feeling SPEED as you are mentioning, but you can easily see the comparison. As for feeling speed in general, you are looking at a digi speedo, you know exactly your speed, but when feeling it, you are only going to be able to determine if you are going slow, mediumly or really fast, and even then, it alternates between different people as to what THEY think is fast.

what was the point of that whole post? what ppl are saying is that they cant read the speedo in the car, so whats the point of a speedo if you cant read it? and what you posted before about analogue speedo's only giving a rough indication of speed in r/l does'nt count ethier this is not r/l and as such there is no reason why the analogue speedo's cant be 100% accurate is there. (oh and yes i do have track experience) not that it matters.

Mayby some of the posters actually don´t know the benefits a digital indication can have for some of us.

I didn´t like the headline of this thread from the beginning as it´s IMO a kind of positioning the others mayby different oppionions then the OP´s. Of course the devs. want to have some feedback.

Pls. read this example:

A very fast guy (not me) racing BL1 in his XFG does 1st splits between 31.1 to 31.3 secs./2nd splits of 1.05.6 - 1.05.8 mins. and laptimes between 1.33.1 - 1.33.5 mins.
He can repeat this for 20 laps if he´s motivated enough.

He knows whenever he crosses the start/finish with (fictive numbers now):
a) 142 Km/h
it could get a very fast lap and he will focus a little more then he normally would do. His next braking point, he knows, is at
b) 143km/h
at T1.
He knows his following braking point as well after the long straight.It´s at:
c) 167 km/h
He now tries to get the apex chikane with:
d) 142 km/h
and after 1 more turn he tries entries the turn up the hill with:
e) 116km/h
Whenever he is just 1-2km/h off his speed he realizes he has to compensate for it at a later stage of his lap.
That´s not racing you might respond, it´s hotlapping.
So what. There still will be the hottlapping feature as far as I know of.Or take my example as a qualifying lap for a race to come.
I have understanding for the guys wanting the digital speedometer back again, I mean, who plays LFS and wants to get slower? It´s the other way arround.
There might as well be something psychological (the change/the missing driving aid) involved in "this whining".

If this would be real racing and this fast guy would come to me (fx. teamowner) and complain about a missing digital speedometer I´d stick him 10 bucks and send him to a car accessoires & parts dealer and my mechanics would put this for him so important add-on in his racing car or gocart or whatever he races with...what´s the big deal?

Happy racing all of you.

Quote from andybarsblade :

what was the point of that whole post? what ppl are saying is that they cant read the speedo in the car, so whats the point of a speedo if you cant read it? and what you posted before about analogue speedo's only giving a rough indication of speed in r/l does'nt count ethier this is not r/l and as such there is no reason why the analogue speedo's cant be 100% accurate is there. (oh and yes i do have track experience) not that it matters.

Well on a track you should be able to feel when you are on the limit, and not have to look at the speedo, i just don't understand the reasons to NEED a speedo, it HELPS when you are exiting a corner and you know you got more speed coming out, but you can just look at the split times. If you need to know your speed when you are hotlapping or racing, something has gone wrong. It's just not something you need, infact, alot of us here could go without a revometer aswell, and just by sound alone so the speedo argument is quite somewhat irrelevant.

A speedo on a race car is an EXTRA, it's not a necessity, so you will just have to deal with it I am afraid, if Scawen wanted to be 100% accurate, the GTR's wouldn't have speedo's. What would you say then?

Quote from BlueFlame :

Well on a track you should be able to feel when you are on the limit, and not have to look at the speedo, i just don't understand the reasons to NEED a speedo, it HELPS when you are exiting a corner and you know you got more speed coming out, but you can just look at the split times. If you need to know your speed when you are hotlapping or racing, something has gone wrong. It's just not something you need, infact, alot of us here could go without a revometer aswell, and just by sound alone so the speedo argument is quite somewhat irrelevant.

A speedo on a race car is an EXTRA, it's not a necessity, so you will just have to deal with it I am afraid, if Scawen wanted to be 100% accurate, the GTR's wouldn't have speedo's. What would you say then?

again your missing the point of what im saying, if there is a speedo in the car you should be able to read it. atm that is not the case. knowing when your on the limit has nothing to do with knowing how fast you are going. if there is no speedo then i would'nt care but what is the point of a speedo if you cant read it?

Quote from andybarsblade :

what is the point of a speedo ?

Hides your embarrassment on the beach or the local pool.

BlueFlame: you know, people are different, they think differently, they do things differently. Maybe something works for you, but it may not work for others. You can state your opinion, but don't force it on people. Just as you are sure you don't need the digital speedo some of us are equally sure we do need it. We are different that way, get it?

If the analogue speedo remains and even if it get's updated so you can see it clearly I guess I will be forced to drive without looking at it since it cannot be -+2 km/h accurate which makes it useless for me for reasons R.Kolz stated and more.

To be honest I don't really understand why it got removed in the first place, realism? You can't install a digital speedo? I mean...it seems such a small detail that creates troubles for many people, and for what? That small pretty much meaningless step in realism? How about removing the virtual mirror?

Quote from BlueFlame :

And that means you can't use analogue speedo?....
You 'speedo' users don't really know what you DO want in my opinion. You seem to say (as a generalisation) that you can't use the analogue speedo, yet then state that any kind of speed reading is SOMETHING useful. Just use what is there. If you can't see the speed whoopdie do. Do you get a speedo on a go-kart? no. you can still do hotlapping their and not need a speedometer.

In a race you are trying to beat other people, in hotlap you are trying to beat a wr, and going at your limits. With digital speedo I can see exactly the speed I have in corners and on the straights. This is very helpful when making setups, as a tiny change can mean you will go either a couple km/h slower or faster. Thus you are able to make a set as fast as possible. And trust me, a couple of km/h can have a huge impact on split times.

I'm a little worried that all this strive for realism will kill the playability and fun of it. And that in the end only those with $1000++ controllers and 40" something screens are able to fully enjoy LFS.

Quote from kurent :

To be honest I don't really understand why it got removed in the first place, realism?

Realism, i doubt it. In reality there are just to many racecars equiped with dashboardloggers like motec,stack,aim etc. and they do display digital speed if you want.

Quote from arco :

In a race you are trying to beat other people, in hotlap you are trying to beat a wr, and going at your limits. With digital speedo I can see exactly the speed I have in corners and on the straights. This is very helpful when making setups, as a tiny change can mean you will go either a couple km/h slower or faster. Thus you are able to make a set as fast as possible. And trust me, a couple of km/h can have a huge impact on split times.

I'm a little worried that all this strive for realism will kill the playability and fun of it. And that in the end only those with $1000++ controllers and 40" something screens are able to fully enjoy LFS.

I'm not sure, but in real life.. Would the driver really look at his speed and see how fast he went? I think not. They have data loggers for that, and they analyze the data after the driver completed his test laps. There they can see if the setup squeezes the last few drops out of the machine. And in real life racing, they don't really drive the cars to the limit constantly, but we do that. Isn't right either. So technically, the setup you have that went that km/h faster, would be useless because on a real track you probably wouldn't use that km/h.

Quote from srdsprinter :

Except it is well known that the dev's are NOT making LFS for you (me or any other consumer), it's their own project to do as they see fit. So you couldn't be more wrong...

Whatever! Everyone needs to eat!

im a big fan of useing the digital speedometer and i completely agree with Rkolz post.. the analogue speedo at a glimse is a rough guess ... i much prefer to just have the speed up in lights.. can look on apex can glance as you cross line .. completely acurate and simple...

also for guys watching replays.. from mp brake points etc are all in lag factor but the speedo doesnt lie.. not only does it help the driver but helps others to see what your doing right/wrong... IMO

And..... this is a race game "simulator" so we cant feel geforces you guys are from what i can tell just trying to make it LOOK like real life by only useing analogue where in a game its just not practical

I think this one simple graphic change back to anlogue speedo in LFS will make for better racing , the change reflects what for me LFS is about ..not accurate clinical PB's but the racing and the choices it brings up, should I pass?, should I back off ?should I stop for tea

You can race the same track 1000's of times but thanks to your fellow racers ,each race and each corner Is an unknown until it happens,, that is fun

Just have a gut feeling this change is for the good.

Quote from sgt.flippy :

I'm not sure, but in real life.. Would the driver really look at his speed and see how fast he went? I think not. They have data loggers for that, and they analyze the data after the driver completed his test laps. There they can see if the setup squeezes the last few drops out of the machine. And in real life racing, they don't really drive the cars to the limit constantly, but we do that. Isn't right either. So technically, the setup you have that went that km/h faster, would be useless because on a real track you probably wouldn't use that km/h.

So basically, since they use that stuff in real life, but we can't in LFS, we shouldn't have any help at all, since it's not realistic? Some of you seems to think that anything that happens in real life can be done in a computer.

"LFS - so realistic you don't need a real car!"

It would be great if LFS would offer same as IRL car, that would be perfect sim.

Get in one of those force things, those things that replicate G forces, don't remember then name, like FORCE-EX or something, but wire it up, so everytime you crash, you get an electric shock. That's what i call thrills!

Quote from BlueFlame :

Get in one of those force things, those things that replicate G forces, don't remember then name, like FORCE-EX or something, but wire it up, so everytime you crash, you get an electric shock. That's what i call thrills!

I think such setup should come with game, that would teach crashing to be bad thing to many

Quote from JTbo :

I think such setup should come with game, that would teach crashing to be bad thing to many

BUT JUST THINK ABOUT THE WRECKERS AND THEIR PUNISHMENT? MWUAHAHHAHAHA

Quote from arco :

So basically, since they use that stuff in real life, but we can't in LFS, we shouldn't have any help at all, since it's not realistic? Some of you seems to think that anything that happens in real life can be done in a computer.

"LFS - so realistic you don't need a real car!"

Uhm... The data logging happens through a computer... So actually the thing right in front of your nose would be the only you need to make your setup. And why are you talking about "we shouldn't have any help at all"? A telemetry based setup should be better than reading it off the speedo while testing. And as far as I know, there is a telemetry logger for LFS, isn't there?
I know there are some things that you can't simulate on a computer. But making a setup IRL is basicly a lot of computer, so that should be one of the easiest things to do. And if a computer can do stuff BETTER than real life... It takes away realism, so we shouldn't do that either.

Quote from BlueFlame :

BUT JUST THINK ABOUT THE WRECKERS AND THEIR PUNISHMENT? MWUAHAHHAHAHA

They would be like this several weeks then

Quote from BlueFlame :

A speedo on a race car is an EXTRA, it's not a necessity, so you will just have to deal with it I am afraid, if Scawen wanted to be 100% accurate, the GTR's wouldn't have speedo's. What would you say then?

I'd say "woot"! Then I'd do a little happy dance around the room.

I believe most if not all of the issues with the digital speado that people are having are from developing bad and unrealistic habits in the first place.

It should also be noted that Pre X30 setups are really not valid in X31/Y anymore

Pre X30 I'd have agreed with the digital speedo outcry, infact I used to use it all the time and have since S1H in 2004 along with custom wheels view. All for the same reasons as being stated here now about needing compensation for FOV and lack of feel limitations that a sim cant give.

I have found that you can now setup cars far more realisticly than before (i.e. less camber, slightly higher tyre presasures, softer spring rates and realistic diff use. Also with engine changes gears need adjusting) but if you do all that all the cars I've tried so far give far more indication and predictability at the limit than before with a FFB wheel. So much so that I don't miss the digital speado for a sec now

Real life racing - including qualifying - is much more less predictable than a sim. Sim tracks are still relatively smooth and don't change much from lap to lap. Real tracks change dynamicly from lap to lap. Rubber builds up on the racing line to give extra grip in the dry but less in the wet. Rubber fragments build up off the racing line to reduce grip. Sand is brought onto the track whenever a car reenters from an off. Temperature changes affect grip etc etc

So irl you cant race with a digital speado like is described, not because it not possible to have an accurate digital speado fitted to a race car, but because the track conditions are live and vary alot compared to a sim and it's simply unrealistic to expect the same grip lap after lap (therefore same speed at apex) irl

Another point to note is the pre X30 digital speedo wasn't a hundred percent accurate. At one stage it was as it just told you the exact velocity of the car at any given moment, but several versions ago that was changed so that the speedo gave you what the wheels were recording. So if the wheels were spinning it would report higher than actual speed. Likewise when driving at the limit your tyres do have some slip and the speed isn't accurate. At that time there was an outcry also, because it would be so much harder, but as time went on people adjusted to it.

I don't see it any different now if everyone is in the same environement its a level playing field, the aliens will still be aliens and people will adjust. But what I do see as very promising is that this "race simulator" is getting closer to being a race simulator and less a game with good physics and imo that is a good thing

I'm personally looking forward to a time when the tracks are much more variable too

Quote from sidi :

I would prob agree with most of that apart from the realistic diff, just done some offline testing with xrt and i'm finding that locked diff is still faster, maybe i need to test more.

It is possible that the locked diff will still be faster especially in hotlaps, what whould be interesting though is to compare locked diff vs a realistic lsd setup over a long race 40-60 laps, and see how it is with clutch heat and tyre wear now

I also see that with the new improvements the lack of chassis and drive train flex is rearing its head again. That's actually a good sign, and I'm sure that will be addressed in a future patch, at that time I believe we will be much closer to rl setup parameters than ever.

Hi. I downloaded the patch, but I haven't installed it yet.
Anyways I really tried to read ALL FIVE PAGES of this thread, I really did, but It's kind of argumentative and redundant. Except Mr Rodger pictures. That was actually pretty informative.
But muddling through it. I realized something. Uhhhh am I gonna have to screw with the FOV settings when I download this to get what I wanna look at when I play? and if so, will the same percent changes be the same as what I currently have or will it be different?

LOL While I was typing this, I got another question, This clutch heating sounds good. Even though, I'd really like to have a track with inverted sections, flaming trash cans and maybe fans that acted like stereotypical soccer fans, I still think the physics of the car and the effects of driving that car should reflect what a real car would do in the same situation. And I think the clutch heating is a step in the right direction.
Well will it affect pedal users very differently than button clutch users?