Well, the point i was getting at is that the FXR just simply isnt a car you'd consider when you look at the 3 car line-up.
I dont have a problem with the hardest cars to drive being the most rewarding when you get it right, but the fact that the average Joe can beat the FXR HLVC in an FZR says something isnt right. You get it right, you get a cookie. The FZR in comparison to the FXR is more like 'you keep it pointing in the right direction, heres a jar of cookies' because its unreasonably quick, and the XRR is too for that matter.

The FZR isnt exactly a car that takes years to master and only the aliens can drive, IMO its easier than the XRR, and thats from someone who'll happily admit to struggling to drive RWD cars with ease (if left on my own and i've got a good feel for the car im fine, but i cant lock horns with someone without being slightly concerned) and yet with that said im still considerably quicker in a car im not happy in compared to something i know i can attack the track in.

As i say, the fact that they are faster isnt a problem, i dont think anyone would argue that, however the margin in which it dominates is excessive to say the least. If this really is supposed to be balancing then the FXR should be slightly slower than the XRR on a laptime basis, and the FZR should be slightly quicker than the XRR due to its slightly harder tyre wear rather than its fuel consumption. In X10 none of the cars can go a full tank on race competitive tyres so they cant use it to their tanks as an advantage, the tyres are the first limit that you hit, not the consumption of fuel. That might have changed with the new tyre changes, softs are useless even for sprint races it seems, mediums look to be the norm now, maybe they can go further, it'll take a while to find out setup-wise what will and wont work.

If you look at AS National public races you will find 70%+ of the field (and usually more) will be FXR's. Even though the FZR, when driven well, is clearly faster. In league races I am sure the mix is very different where the drivers tend to be more interested in outright speed compared to ease of driving.

I am not sure you can ever address this so if you balance, or at least close their lap times towards each other, public races will probably become 90%+ FXR. If you give the RWD an advantage enough to see them used more in public races, league races will become all FZR.

Before we can really balance them we would need to agree on what type of races we were trying to achieve the balance in. I don't think we could ever get agreement on this. Won't it will come down to making the imbalances within tolerable margins more than any real balance. In my mind the goal is to make sure you never see one car dominate the grid.

Maxim

Although I didn't test very much I'd like to say something:

PLEASE fix the weight penalties to on- AND offline mode!

I'm kind of a noob when it comes to setups and it's very annoying that you can't just take a hotlap set and alter it to right tyre-wear. In patch X10 you have to work on the whole suspension and things, what drives me crazy.
The even more powerful argument is, that you can't look at hotlap times of the cars to compare their performance in the race. So IMO the hotlaps become some kind of a addon for the nutters who just like hotlapping, but become totally useless for the usual race-driver.

Sorry for my english.

Quote from Andreas Grauel :

So i did some longruns offline with weight penalty!
After my test I'd say it would nearly work out giving the FZR a penalty of 30-35kg and the XRR a penalty of 10kg... please insert the weight penalty already in the Patch so Hotlapping gonna be the same as OnlineRacing.

so we're almost back to 0/50/100...
reminds me of something hehehehe

I also agree to online and offline penalties, cause then it would be easy to calculate the total time differences on all combos, which might make balancing a bit easier (however, this doesnt consider tyre wear, fuel usage etc.)

IMO:

GTR's
- The FZR should remain the same as it currently is.
- The XRR and FXR should both have their engines "rebored" as they are racing versions of the road counterparts, and to have a slight increase in capacity through a rebore seems realistic to me (2.3 Litres or so?). This would bring the HP in both cars up a little, to be competitive with the FZR.
- The FZR should still be the fastest GTR over a single hotlap, as it doesn't look after fuel and tyres as well as the XRR.
- I hate the idea of ballast again online.

TBO's
- The RB4 should regain the 18 Kg's it lost after X30.
- The FXO should have more weight, as I should imagine it seems a comfortable family car with air conditioning and other heavy options.
- XRT should remain the same. It's the most difficult to drive, so should have a slight edge.

Quote from DaveWS :

- XRT should remain the same. It's the most difficult to drive, so should have a slight edge.

wooot!!! it took some waiting, but finally it seems this issue will be solved

Quote from ORION :

so we're almost back to 0/50/100...
reminds me of something hehehehe

FXO is still the fastest, even with thinner tires. (round BL1), Followed by the RB4 (can take corners faster) and then, finally the XRT.
RB4 should remain is previous wieght, FXO should gain some 10kgs in front, and the XRT should be 10kgs lighter, in the rear for better balance and greater power to weight.

To have all cars do similar laps, the power-to-wieght should be XRT -> FXO -> RB4.

I like the XRR and FXR over the FZR due to the forced induction. One thing though, because the XRR and FXR and set as sequential, shouldnt we be able to use the h shifter still with the G25? As the only way it lets me shift using those cars is with sequential.

Quote from agm_ultimatex :

I like the XRR and FXR over the FZR due to the forced induction. One thing though, because the XRR and FXR and set as sequential, shouldnt we be able to use the h shifter still with the G25? As the only way it lets me shift using those cars is with sequential.

You can't use an H-shift with a sequential car because H-shift uses 1-2-3-4-5-6 while sequential uses UP-DOWN. If you have a G25, just turn the knob to set it to sequential and make sure that your script for the FXR and XRR are set to use the sequential settings ("set sequential" in the script).

the reason i bought the g25 was because of this game, and my fav car is the XRR. Unfortanetely ill be sticking the the lsat version now as i hate sequential, i'd rather stick with H pattern and clutch and be slightly slower than everyone esle in the race, than drive sequential. Im playing this game for the fun factor, and to me, the shifter is a big part of that. I hope at teh very least an option to have H shift is brought in to all the GTR cars. Single seaters can remain sequential. However i'd prefer the rest to at least have a user option

The XRG and XRT both still use H-shift, as does the FZR. It's not like you can never use H-shift in LFS now that the XRR has changed. Just drive the FZR instead of the XRR for races in that class, or spend a little more time driving the XRG/XRT/FZ5/etc.

Shouldn't it be allowed to willingly take a handicap?

Quote from Cue-Ball :

The XRG and XRT both still use H-shift, as does the FZR. It's not like you can never use H-shift in LFS now that the XRR has changed. Just drive the FZR instead of the XRR for races in that class, or spend a little more time driving the XRG/XRT/FZ5/etc.

I dont like any of those cars unfortunately. I just prefer the overal speed and feel of the xrr.

I just hope an option is put into the game at least.

Quote from Breizh :

Shouldn't it be allowed to willingly take a handicap?

Yep. This is the key.

If you could select the gearbox in the XXR and FZR it would solve it. Sequential is faster so selecting H in these cars is like a handicap so should be allowed.

Being able to select sequential in the FZR is an advantage so should not be allowed.

Its been taken out because were entering the hardcore era where it doesnt matter what people would prefer if its not realistic. So the XRR gets sequencial and no other option.
I dont like it personally (the attitude, not arsed about the gearbox types specificly) because LFS started by catering for a lot of peoples preferences and they're slowly being removed again. The options which were open to the driver are being removed in the name of realism when theres no harm or in a few cases nothing unrealistic about them staying.

Personally i find some of the enforced changes in the name of realism pathetic while its considered acceptable for people to play the game using a mouse or keyboard... thats realistic. You cant have a H shifter in your XRR, but you can drive around using Q,A < & > no problem. Some things you just wonder what the harm is in leaving them in there.

Quote from Rotatox :

the reason i bought the g25 was because of this game, and my fav car is the XRR. Unfortanetely ill be sticking the the lsat version now as i hate sequential, i'd rather stick with H pattern and clutch and be slightly slower than everyone esle in the race, than drive sequential. Im playing this game for the fun factor, and to me, the shifter is a big part of that. I hope at teh very least an option to have H shift is brought in to all the GTR cars. Single seaters can remain sequential. However i'd prefer the rest to at least have a user option

Agreed. Also Im saying that I had the h shifter on my setups, but it wouldnt work at all. In patch x i used h gate for every car, except the F1s. I want to do the same

I made this specifiacally for the XRR in mind. Ive made the car sound similar to a rotary in teh game, so i used an rx7 interior (being a rotary fanatic). Unfortunately i have to stick to the the old version now so i can get more use out of my cockpit

Quote from PaulC2K :

Personally i find some of the enforced changes in the name of realism pathetic while its considered acceptable for people to play the game using a mouse or keyboard... thats realistic. You cant have a H shifter in your XRR, but you can drive around using Q,A < & > no problem. Some things you just wonder what the harm is in leaving them in there.

The big thing you're missing here (although I do support the view, in principle, that keyboard/mouse drivers are undermining the realism of the game, as are non-FFB wheel users) is cost. It doesn't cost anything to us for the developers to make the game as realistic as they can, but it does cost money for racers to have 'wheels. The developers can't force us to pay for realistic controllers, but they can make the game as close to true racing as possible for those who do want to pay for 'wheels.
Making the game unusable without a 'wheel would remove a huge amount of people coming into S2. I for one bought my DFP purely because of LFS, but there's not a chance I would have done so if I couldn't have tried the game out first, and nor would I have bought it without being able to try S2 first. The 'issue' of keyboard/mouse drivers does seem, I'm afraid, unsolveable.

Quote from MaximUK :

If you look at AS National public races you will find 70%+ of the field (and usually more) will be FXR's. Even though the FZR, when driven well, is clearly faster. In league races I am sure the mix is very different where the drivers tend to be more interested in outright speed compared to ease of driving.

I am not sure you can ever address this so if you balance, or at least close their lap times towards each other, public races will probably become 90%+ FXR. If you give the RWD an advantage enough to see them used more in public races, league races will become all FZR.

Before we can really balance them we would need to agree on what type of races we were trying to achieve the balance in. I don't think we could ever get agreement on this. Won't it will come down to making the imbalances within tolerable margins more than any real balance. In my mind the goal is to make sure you never see one car dominate the grid.

I'm in agreement with this. Over a longer race (in X10), the FZR seems to be used very little, because it punishes mistakes more than an FXR or, to an extent, XRR would. I think it being rear-engined, and thus inherently more dangerous to drive than the other GTRs, does make up for its extra speed. Yes, it can be used in a hotlap scenario, by a mediocre driver, to get better laps than a fast FXR driver - but that's not to say the average FZR driver could get that laptime over and over again.

As I see it, the FXR (in X10) is slower because it is easier and more forgiving, and the XRR is slower than the FZR because it is more manageable. Both of the latter are quicker than the FXR because both are a lot harder to drive consistently. This sort of setup seemed to reward those who took the time to learn the FZR fully, while allowing less experienced drivers to run alongside them in FXRs. Now, with the FZR's handicaps, there's the possibility of those FXR drivers being able to beat more practiced FZR drivers, which doesn't seem to be the way it should work.

Actually, if any class balancing is to be done in GTR from X10, I reckon it should be making the XRR slightly faster. It's a lot harder to drive than the FXR, but doesn't seem to be sufficiently quicker to make up for it.

And now I wait to be contradicted

Sam

Quote from Dark Elite :

... Over a longer race (in X10), the FZR seems to be used very little...

Disagree. Have a look once more. IGTC, LeMansLeague, MoE, 24h race. just to name some of the endu leagues. At least 30% of the cars where FZR´s.

Quote from Rotatox :

I made this specifiacally for the XRR in mind. Ive made the car sound similar to a rotary in teh game, so i used an rx7 interior (being a rotary fanatic). Unfortunately i have to stick to the the old version now so i can get more use out of my cockpit

WOW, that's some cockpit!

Quote from dougie-lampkin :

WOW, that's some cockpit!

Yea, i think you have to let him have the option of manual just bc that is a fantastic cockpit... it needs a roll cage though for the GTR version.

Quote from Rotatox :

I made this specifiacally for the XRR in mind. Ive made the car sound similar to a rotary in teh game, so i used an rx7 interior (being a rotary fanatic). Unfortunately i have to stick to the the old version now so i can get more use out of my cockpit

:bananadea

You really need to expand your LFS horizons, so to say. If ScaViEr were to cater to every request, this game would never be done.

I primarily drive the FZR, and that car is punished the worst of the three! Meanwhile, people driving the FXR can merrily bump over curbs and power out of every corner, hamfisted mind you, while the with the FZR you have to be delicate about throttle control.

....Passions. There is nothing logical about them....

And the FZR can go ploughing through gravel traps.
While your being 'delicate' with your throttle control your still going miles quicker than the FXR with or without bumping over curbs etc

FZR is most responsive, in steering & acceleration, which is why its quickest round the majority of tracks (>90% im sure, most by a fair margin too), its not really that hard to drive and it can drive straight out of gravel unharmed unlike the others.

On the other hand you cant mash the throttle & need to shift at the correct times just like all cars, but its slightly more sensitive, and then if your doing ~1h+ races it uses more fuel although tyres wear sooner than a tank empties round tracks on competitive tyres anyway.

So it punishes you if you drive badly, that'll only make it harder for n00bs, and personally that sounds spot on to me because its too easy and too quick and thats why everyone jumps onto it. If only the very best could drive it quick, then im all for them being rewarded for it, but as a self-confessed RWD hater who can drive the FZR considerably faster with an 'easy does it' approach than the FXR (& XRR) it shows even a rwd n00b is quicker in the car supposedly faster because its harder to drive?!? Since when!!?

If people are going to complain about the negative aspects of a car, they should at least consider the benefits of driving it, and likewise for the cars they're comparing against. Im betting the people who've complained about the FZR changes still use the FZR though, and thats usually because its still considerably quicker even with the newly added 'penalties' on there.

For the record, i have no interest in driving the FXR specificly, i've driven considerably more miles in the FZR than FXR & XRR combined since S2 came out and since the X patch too, its an unwanted car thats being heavily punished because its the easiest to drive.

Quote from Rotatox :

I made this specifiacally for the XRR in mind. Ive made the car sound similar to a rotary in teh game, so i used an rx7 interior (being a rotary fanatic). Unfortunately i have to stick to the the old version now so i can get more use out of my cockpit

Bummer man.. Nice setup, your effort's not all in vain